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Member
Posts: 16
| Here is a quote from Nabokov`s novel King, Queen, Knave:
“He smiled at the thought that she too had her eccentricities. The iced rose water applied to her face at bed time. Those Hindukitsch gymnastics nearly every day.”
The novel was written in Berlin in the twenties, when yoga type of gymnastics already existed, as in other European countries.
Hindukitsch gymnastics:I love this term. It so nicely encompasses what I do not like about yoga, or better about some yoga talk:the religious touch, the anti-intellectual stance,the claim that yoga is a science providing special insights, the consciousness talk, the peace and namaste folklore.
Hope no one is offended, take my comment with good humor!I love this forum, don‘t kick me out.
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| I really like the term "Hindukitsch Gymnastics", cuase it does not have the word yoga in it. Now there can be clear differentiation between two form of practices, the non-spiritual & spiritual, and all can pursue their chosen path with peace. Cheers! |
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Regular
Posts: 86
Location: Jacksonville, Florida | I'm not offended at all! Part of getting yoga to be accepted as part of every day life is to establish its history.
I also find it fascinating that there is another connection with playing cards (perhaps fortune telling telling?) and yoga here? Hrmmmm...
(Now I hope no one is offended  )
Edited by yogabear 2010-11-20 2:13 PM
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| i'm like 900% offended.
i do like kitsch, though |
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Member
Posts: 16
| To make it a 1000% offense:If Patanjali had had a bike, would we now sing cycle mantras and shanti shanti before we go for a ride? |
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Member
Posts: 16
| Well, I wouldn‘t be able to differentiate between a non-spiritual & spiritual practice, as antaarayah does, because I don‘t understand the term spiritual. Maybe this term doesn‘t have a literal meaning at all, but rather is an expression of emotions. Judging from the outside, as the teachers do who I meet, I am considered a dedicated, concentrated Ashtanga practitioner. Just when I start talking (or writing), some people frown... Cheers, need to get some sleep as I get up very early for whatever it is! |
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| Patanjali was very clear that he believed that one must withdraw the senses, stop physical movement (except minimal breathing) and stop thinking (quiet the mind) to achieve the goal: Samadhi. He probably was not a big bike enthusiast.
I really don't see how this is not the exact opposite of any style yoga practice that teaches the mindful (thoughtful) holding and movement of the body, which of course requires a heightening of the senses, rather than their withdrawal. I believe that the third of the Eight Limbs "Asana" did not mean any kind of physical exercise. The word literally means "seat" in Sanskrit and refers to sitting, as in sitting in meditation. That one would need to stretch now and then so that one could sit longer in meditation is obvious. (Any more than that would be getting into the very body that you are trying to transcend.) That one would also need to practice breath control (Pranayama) so that one could quiet the mind and body is also obvious as breathing affects both. Physical or mental fitness is certainly NOT a goal here.
Patanjali was a proponent of what is often called Raja Yoga with the goal of controlling and thereby withdrawing from the mind, body, will and senses.
Hindukitsch Gymnastics or Indian Style Gymnastics may be better names for what is commonly called yoga today.
At any rate, most popular modern forms of physical yoga have little or nothing to do with Patanjali (despite the frequent lip service) and it might all be a bit less misleading if there were seperate words to describe the two.
The "Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary" differentiates between the two by giving a capital "Y" to: "a Hindu theistic philosophy teaching the suppression of all activity of body, mind and will in order that the self may realize its distinction from them and attain liberation", and giving a lower case "y" to: "a system of exercises for attaining bodily and mental control and well-being".
Yoga is about suppression of the mind, body and will to transcend them and live in a spiritual world.
yoga is about strengthening the mind, body and will to achieve well-being and be more healthy and alive in the physical world.
You can practice Yoga or you can practice yoga, or you could practice both of them, but they are two distinct and contradictory practices.
Now I understand that some of you may say that this exact paradox is the point of it all, but it almost certainly was NOT Patanjali's point and he certainly would not have approved of men and women doing physical exercise together in their underwear by the hour.
As the book "Yoga Body" clearly demonstrates, modern yoga exercise is an invention of the early 1900's that has more to do with the European gymnastic movements of that day and Indian nationalism than the Yoga Sutras or any ancient tradition.
It would probably be clearer for everybody is there was some kind of commonly accepted differentiation between the two definitions of yoga. |
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| way to kill the party jim |
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| I don't think that Patanjali would be much fun at a party.
I think that a bunch of men and women doing exercises in their underwear at a party might be a lot of fun. Stretching (yoga?) exercises like Twister are fun too!
Edited by jimg 2010-11-22 2:17 PM
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| patanjali's fabled 197th and 198th sutras extol the virtues of jello shots as another means to samadhi |
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| Maybe I shouldn't have saved money and bought the Readers Digest version of the Yoga Sutras, because my copy doesn't even mention jello shots.
Is the jello shots thing part of how you become strong like an elephant?
(I think that this is about physical strength not smell, or did I get that wrong too?)
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| In India I've seen people running and doing press ups in the morning as the
main part of their yoga routine. consciousness is no magical mystery tour. When you sense a part of your body you stimulate/wake up the part of the brain that represents that part of the body. This is also known in modern neurology. Even in professional gymnastics, sports scientists are often part of a team. You know yourself better than anyone else. Why not be clear and precise about what you do in yoga with a scientific approach? Many yogis have practiced this way for years to clear up the mind. I know many people who have got rid off many complaints by doing clear movements,postures, while listening and sensing themselves ( even a knock or injury will have an influence on the brain and waking parts of the brain can help one overcome many issues). e.g. Someone with parkinson's disease practicing yoga will promote natural dopamine production.
Many do view as a wushu wash spiritual magical thing to explore. It can be. There are also Germans who view yoga that way. But for me it's something much more scientific and vast than anything spiritual or any science. |
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Member
Posts: 16
| Vibes, "much more scientific and vast than ... any science" - a difficult concept, I would say.
The history of Yoga and yoga is most interesting. The book mentioned, Yoga Body by Mark Singleton, is really worth reading. One merit of Singleton's book is to provide evidence of the contribution of women to the development of what we spend so much time on today. In the traditional accounts of yoga history, it seems that women have no place.
Jim, I like also your book on yoga. Happy the man who can say that he contributed in such a nice way to our knowledge. And I was so scared about your comment on lotus - no lotus before one can do full cobbler - that I started working hard on cobbler, as I always did lotus with ease but couldn't do cobbler, now I am nearly there. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Hi Dage, it is a difficult concept. We have people who are doctors in physics, foot specialists, knee specialists, back specialists, posture specialists, lung and heart specialists, psychologists, environment experts etc etc, Yoga can involve all of this and much more. |
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Member
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| Hi vibes, yesterday I was in a Western mood, and something more scientific than any science appeared to me as a locigally impossible concept. But today the sun is shining, I enjoy a cup of tee after a 2 hour practice, and I am in my most tolerant mood. Sure, there is so much to know and to learn about what we are doing, from all areas. For example from mathematics/physics: we need a sound derivation of the maximum number of possible poses, maybe using knot theory, as they did to get the number of ways to knot a tie. |
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Member
Posts: 16
| Thanks for the link, interesting article, worth reading twice. As for me, I learn and practice primary series, 6 days a week, around 2 hours. It is a fun practice, when I open my eyes early in the morning, I am already looking forward to it. And it is most fun when I get the rhythm right, I mean synchronizing movements and breaths, and forgetting about what I am doing. Similar feeling as cycling in the mountains, riding up an Alpine pass, 2,000m of altitude difference, regular breath, and up you go. Pranayama only for dentist visits, no injection, just good relaxed breathing. No joke, dentists were surprised that I could stand major treatments without needles. I do without Yoga philosophy, haven't seen concepts or arguments yet which are appealing to me. History of yoga and Yoga is intriguing, and I plan to dig more into this. |
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| Cornelius,
If you are interested in the history of yoga, I would recommend reading David Gordon White's books: "The Alchemical Body: Siddha Traditions in Medieval India", "Kiss of the Yogini: 'Tantric Sex' in its South Asian Contexts" and "Sinister Yogis". They are expertly researched, informative and entertaining.
Jim |
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Hindukitsch Gymnastics
