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| you guys should just pull'em out and measure... |
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| dhanurasana - 2010-01-04 10:02 PM
you guys should just pull'em out and measure...
Ya know, that's exactly what I ALMOST wrote, but I was trying to do the "voice of reason" thing! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
 
| As i have said it is simply misunderstanding. Also partly due to the fact that many teachers that some of you have probably been to,by the sounds of things, do not give their students the time needed to detect the aftereffects of various actions,even such abstract ones as thinking.
Using muscles without observation, discrimination, and understanding is merely machinelike movement, of no value except for its produce; it could also be obtained from a donkey or even a real machine. Such work does not call for the highly developed human nervous system. The reception of abstract mental impressions remains mere mechanical process unless time is allowed to let the individual become aware of the fact that he is paying attention and that this attention is sufficent for understanding. Without this, the impressions will remain a mere recording. The result will at best be a mechanical repetition of the mental process, but without its becoming an integrated part of the personality.
It seems like I need to go into more depth to answer the original question too- Aside from injuries or disorders, it is difficult to carry out a paticular action (or posture) because the orders of the nervous system to the muscles do not fit the action. The body will body for instance may not be able to do a certain action because the concious instruction for the action cannot be carried out,and because the antagonist muscles-those that serve to straighten the back,in this case-continue to work too hard as a matter of habit resulting from poor posture. It is enough for their obstructive activity to become conciously aware, for a new flexibility to appear suddenly, a flexibility like that of an infant, and the difficult posture or action becomes continuos and comfortable almost seems miraculous-as was the case with the above mentioned woman who was unable to bend her knee for over 10 years.
The moment this happens the individual feels as though a window has opened into a dark room and he is filled with a new feeling of ability and life. This infact is what self realization is, and he realizes that responsibility for his uncontrolled movements rests largely with himself. This is what I meant when I said earlier that the teacher has a point but has the inability to make something positive out of it and help guide the student to making something difficult easy. In the same way, many schools have a motto of 'working harder'. However nothing in school is actually hard and it is of great benefit for children to have a teacher ho helps them understand that what they may struggle with is actually not hard when understood properly. Sometimes a child may have a rigid personality that maths is hard and they will continue to find it hard. However when they understand that it is not then something opens up in their personality too .
There is much benefit from banging the pipe -as you described the bikram method and there is much benefits from all styles of yoga. However when we try to learn largely on the principle of repition and commiting to the memory. In the same waythis may make it easier to understand why one man may practice daily on a musical instrument or at a yoga posture and fail to make any progress,while another shows daily improvement.Perhaps the nature of the talent that is the accepted explanation for this divergence of achievement dervies from the fact that the second student observes what he is doing while the first one only repeats and memorizes and relies on the assumption that sufficent repetition of a bad performance or bad posture will somehow bring perfection to the musical instrument or posture. Consider what a painter does when he studies a landscape and tries to draw it on a canvas. Can he do it without paying attention to the feeling in his hand as it directs the paintbrush? Can he do it without an awareness of what his eyes are seeing?
We have all experienced an occasion while reading when we had to go back and reread a passage because we read it the first time without paying attention. Although we probably read every word the first time, and even formed the words voicelessly,we did not understand or retain anything. What are we actually noticing during the second reading? Does it really make that much difference that we should observe the workings of our mind while reading?
Wow-thats a lot of words Ive written-hopefully that finally sorts much of what has been written by everyone here out. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Above I meant to write however when we try to learn largely on the principle of repetition and commiting to memory, we are limiting ourselves. |
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| Hi vibes,
You said: "In the same waythis may make it easier to understand why one man may practice daily on a musical instrument or at a yoga posture and fail to make any progress,while another shows daily improvement.Perhaps the nature of the talent that is the accepted explanation for this divergence of achievement dervies from the fact that the second student observes what he is doing while the first one only repeats and memorizes and relies on the assumption that sufficent repetition of a bad performance or bad posture will somehow bring perfection to the musical instrument or posture. "
You will not make any progress on a musical instrument unless you practice regularly. If you practice with focus and awareness, you will improve rapidly (to a point). If you simply go through the motions without focus and awareness, you will not make much progress because you are re-wiring your mind/body with faulty technique instead of proper technique. Until your mind/body is re-wired to perform properly, you cannot play music. You must learn to play the notes properly automatically before you can start to play the music. You cannot focus on the music if you are still focusing on producing the notes. Focused repetition is the only way to do this. (Talent also helps, but we cannot achieve talent, only learn to use whatever we have to its fullest.)
You must internalize the steps before you can do the dance.
The same is true of yoga. You must practice the poses to learn to do the yoga. Since you are re-wiring yourself, the quality of your practice is as important as the quantity. You need both.
Namaste,
Jim |
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| Having studied classical music for years, I can assure you vibes that there are people gifted in this discipline and others who excel due to sheer determination.
However, not a single one gets to where they are without years and years and YEARS of mind-numbing, repetitions scales, sight training, ear training, and practice of pieces with single hands and then hands together, AND duet-playing, too. Those who are gifted are simply that. But the saying for them stands true: talent is 10% gift, 90% work.
Not a single one is there because they have let the music life force enter their bodies thereby allowing them exceptional talent. They ALL start with a single note and work from there.
And some of them with great talent will never reach their ultimate potential if they break a finger along the way or lose a hand. Some physical limitations are indeed to great to overcome, no matter what the mindset.
I think tomorrow I shall fly. After all, I believe I can, lack of wings notwithstanding...
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| A few here still misunderstand. So many physical limitations can be overcome when ones heart and mind are put to it. As I said before nothing is school is hard.Although teachers often insist on kids working hard. Maths,english are all simple and straightforward when understood. However you probably live here in America, where it is in built into many people that -where there will there is a way and trying harder etc. Therefore it has been adapted into your way of doing things. However this is restrictive as you are not allowing yourselves to improve/develop to your full full potential and beyond. One problem is also setting goals and targets.Which is often done in yoga trainings for lesson plans etc. A goal is an obstacle as we can often go beyond the goals.Goals can be limiting. It is so important to be open to change and improve otherwise it will become more difficult. It is about quality not quantity. However in America much emphasis is on quantity again. So its like swimming against a tide here sometimes. |
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| You will not succeed at anything with quality or quantity alone. You need both, just like you need control AND surrender, mind AND body, strength AND flexibility, focusing on goals AND focusing on the process, internal AND external feedback, the one AND the individual, a critical mind AND a compassionate heart.
Every opposite can only exist in relation to it's opposite. You can only be "timeless" in time. You can only be "one with the Universe" as an individual.(If you are not still a seperate individual, there is no entity that is one, and therefore no perception of oneness.)
As long as you are trying to have one opposite without the other, you can only have delusion. Yoga is finding the balance between the many opposites in our lives.
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Regular
Posts: 73
Location: The City of Brotherly Love | You write some pretty darn good stuff Jim. Much appreciated. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Yoga is concentration actually. Read the second verse of Patanjalis sutras. The first is -Here starts the Yoga sutras. But what you said is interesting all the same as is what thedancingj wrote. However if you are willing to try this have a go and you will only just begin to understand how the mind can be used to make you more flexible (the mind is an extension of the body not an opposite if that what you mean?)-I feel now is a good time for practical advice to hopefully finally help you understand in a fun way too!
Sit on a a chair with your feet firmly on the floor in a comfortable upright position.
Turn the body comfortably to the right,slowly slowly,and notice how far you turn.You can notice what your eyes can see on the wall etc and remember. Then return to face ahead again.
Now gently turn the body to the right and back many times,but reducing the effort every time more and more,while sliding the hands on your legs (when you turn your right hand slides back in the direction of your right hip,while the left hand slides forwards to the knee of the left leg). - While doing this each time with less effort (and not trying to go further), pay attention to where you feel movement-in the back,the ribs on the right,the ribs on the left,the spine,the shoulders,the arms,the elbows,the chest,the abdomen,the head (important).
Now look ahead at a fixed point with the eyes and do not lose eye contact with whatever the fixed point is.And do the above movement as above even with the head (obviously you will not go as far) so even the hands slide etc,DO NOT lose eye contact with the point you focus on.Pay attention to all the above mentioned details. Dont forget to breathe comfortably. REDUCE THE EFFORT, TRYING, STRIVING everytime.Repeat around 10 times or untill you feel satisfied.
Now do the above but keep your head and your eyes fixed.Reducing the effort every time,even making the movement smaller and simpler. around 10 times or when satisfied,with full awareness of the movement o the arms,ribs etc as above.
Rest with your eyes closed observe and possible sensations for a minute.
Do the first movement,sliding hands,looking and turning the head and the body to the right and notice how you can twist further,through trying less and allowing your awareness to spread so the brain understands how to move more clearly.
Now comes the interesting part-
Turn 2 more times to the right, then in the same manner with the hands sliding on the legs look and turn once to the left and notice how its not as good as the right side (if you followed the above instructions properly).
Now sit and look ahead close your eyes. Imagine (DO NOT ACTUALLY MOVE) that you slide the hands and turn the body and the eyes to the left 5 times with all the details of the sensations of observing the ribs,hands,shoulders etc.
Imagine that you keep they eyes fixed on a spot ahead and do the movements 5 times-feeling all the sensations of the above mentioned body parts. If you find it hard to imagine once do the smallest of small micromovements to remind yourself of the sensations.
Imagine that you keep the head and eyes still and turn to the left with full observation of the sensations from movement of the back etc.5 times.
Rest with the the eyes closed observing any possible sensations.
Now really (not in imagination) turn and look to the left and notice how far you turn. You may find that the left side is even more flexible than the right or just as flexible. Play with turning left to right and notice how you became more flexible.
Now I think its Jim or someone else who earlier mentioned 'you can sit and think about being flexible forever and it will not make you more flexible.You are not flexible because you have a mental image of yourself that you are flexible.Yes, you can keep your muscles in a constant state of tension due to mental states, but your flexibility is mainly a matter of the elasticity of your cells, not the enervation of your muscles by your nerves.(there is no such thing as mind over matter because the mind is matter-this is an artificial duality). To become more flexible you must stretch your muscles.'
Then he continued by saying that a lady with ms who was unable to bend her leg for 10 years was able to do so after 10 years is an urban legend and saying its bull****. When its not. He has never met her. I have and I have seen her before and after as have her impressed family and friends.
The above Yoga exercise is a great example of what the original poster was trying to get to grips with. Maybe the teacher was offensive-I do not know. Probably the teacher read that someone said that inflexibility is because of an inflexible mind. But the teacher couldnt make it into something positive and help their students develop flexibility fast.And therfore it is just a wind up to say such things. However its good to be able to help.
Enjoy the last exercise everyone-It shows how you can use your thinking to become more flexible and to start to really improve. Also notice after completion of the exercise the quality of your turning. Your muscles wont have to stretch as much,although your flexibility,awareness and sensitivity,body and mind have all been doing much yoga. In Tai Chi they say your energy goes where your attention goes. The same is often with Yoga.
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| so, hawk got a ukulele for christmas.
he loves it. i love it. i go to Pineapple Pete's online Ukulele school.
every morning, i tune the ukulele. it takes me a while. i've never owned such an instrument, never played one. every morning i tune it and i play a couple of cords--C, A. then i hand it over to hawk.
hawk carries it by the strings to his favorite seat in the sun, and then sets it on his lap and "plays" it by patting the strings with one hand, and holding them down with one or two fingers on the fret.
at the end of the day, when he is well finished playing with his Ukulele, i tune it again, i practice my chords, and then we all put the uke to "bed." (back in the case. hawk kisses it goodnight. uke also sometimes takes naps when mom's had enough during the day.)
every day, every day, every day. quality? i do not know. repetition, definitely. Joy? absolutely.
i am not concerned, to an extent, about measures of success. i am not worried about repetition. for my students, i like to "see" improvement, but some improvements are unable to be seen by me. but what really keeps it all rolling?
Joy. |
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| let it be known, btw, that carrying a uke by the strings to one's favorite spot in the sun creates a situation of an uke out of tune. |
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| zoebird,
Intonation is relative; joy is absolute!
jimg
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| A great one to do is ""oh my darling clementine" - sounds so good on a ukelele.
How did you zoe, freimaya and jim get on with the exercise? Have a go and dancing to a ukelele will be more free and fun too! |
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| It is true that the brain controls flexibility. If you take a person who is anaesthetized, their body is extremely flexible, far beyond the normal limitations when awake. However, what is being asserted by this teacher is that the regulation of the body's flexibility by the brain translates to some kind of character flaw. This is bull crap. What you really need to ask is what is the inherent value in being flexible? The person who can do the full splits in bow pulling is not doing "better" yoga than the person who can barely grab their foot. So how completely wrong is it to go further and to say not only are you physically inferior, but it's you're own fault for being mentally "inflexible," whatever that means. When I hear someone criticized as being "rigid" or "inflexible," what I'm usually hearing is "you don't agree with me and I think you're wrong." To that, I say, WHATEVER. I am proud to say that I am totally inflexible on issues such as social justice, child abuse, cruelty to animals, etc. What the heck kind of virtue is it to be mentally "flexible?" As the wise man once said, you can be so open minded your brains fall out. A lot of people you see at the yoga studio are young--they are in their twenties and are still exploring and figuring out life. I think sometimes yoga teachers who are used to dealing with young people or who are young themselves forget that a lot of the people in the room are fully mature adults who do not have emotional problems, character defects, or other personality disorders that they need to fix. News flash! Not everyone is the throws of late-adolescent life drama. A lot of people are doing just fine, thank you, and do not need amateur psychoanalysis in the yoga room.
To the original poster, if you have the option to not study with this teacher, then take it. What you don't need is someone spewing garbage at you while you are trying to have a "90 minute moving meditation," and are putting your mind into a receptive and suggestive state. That crap will poison your practice and you don't need it. If you don't have the option to change, then a complaint is in order. If the studio owner is not sympathetic, how about send a complaint to Bikram HQ? They are known to police the use of their name and the dialogue that is recited under it.
Ferret |
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| vibes,
I tried your exercise and did not experience a noticeable difference in flexibility. I also had my wife try it and she subjectively felt additional flexibility but did not turn more to the left compared to the right as measured by a goniometer. (She is left handed which could be a factor.) This experiment is un-scientific on many different levels and does not really prove anything one way or the other. Most people's left side is more flexible and right side stronger. You can also stretch deeper when you are relaxed and/or have warmed your muscles (which the first part of the exercise does.). You are also being influenced by what the exercise tells you to feel and trying to "perform" well.
This exercise reminds me of the one where you hold your arm out to the side at shoulder height as someone pushes it down. After a couple minutes they let go and you lower your arm to your side and it miraculously rises up all by itself.
Yes, you can improve your physical performance with mental exercises and both athletes and performers routinely do. Also, your flexibility limits are in part governed by your nervous system in that once your autonomic nervous system thinks that a muscle has stretched enough, it will stop it from stretching more to protect it from injury. By slowly desensitizing you natural reflexes by relaxing and slowly stretching your muscles repeatedly you can gain a temporary increase in flexibility. (You are systematically turning off that reflex.) Contortionists do this as part of the preparation for their "act". Bikram practitioners do this with the heat in the room.
jimg
Edited by jimg 2010-01-07 7:53 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| I tried it again and noticed much difference so have quite a few others. Maybe slow down,relax and concentrate. As you mention the first part of the exercise warms the muscles. It is not meant to warm them but to make movement and coordination of the muscles clear. So have another go. I suggest making it smaller and with much less effort. Have fun! |
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| i didn't know that there was an exercise to do. too many words to read, i guess.
really, the exercise i did were as follows:
meditation, wash baby, make breakfast, clean up room, move stuff around, tune ukulele, give ukulele to baby, nurse baby to sleep after cheese snack, get online and finish as much as possible. etc.
so, yes, i am very flexible, thanks.  motherhood has definitely increase my mental flexibility. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | ZB,  |
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| vibes-
i think you may discovered bharadvajasana on a chair
keep up that pioneering spirit |
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| ferret - 2010-01-07 4:38 PM
If the studio owner is not sympathetic, how about send a complaint to Bikram HQ? They are known to police the use of their name and the dialogue that is recited under it.
Ferret
LOL. Sorry, Ferret, but that is a total myth. Occasionally they'll crack down on studios that are blatantly breaking rules by doing things like employing non-Bikram teachers or holding non-Bikram classes, but quality control over teacher's dialogue? FORGET IT. That's an internal studio issue. As it stands, all studios are operated independently, and unless they've done something worthy of legal action, Bikram doesn't (and can't) get involved. There ain't no "dialogue police." If you want to complain to someone, complain to your cat; you're more likely to get a response. |
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| And how do you know this, DancingJ? Do you really think that if a customer contacted Bikram HQ with a complaint that they were offended by dialogue offered in a Bikram studio, that Bikram would not care? That's not a bikram thing, it's just good business. If I called McDonald's corporate to complain about service in an individual franchise, you can bet someone will be looking into it. If I got a bad coffee in Borders cafe, and I called corporate HQ to complain, they would also look into it. In fact, since Bikram owns intellectual property connected with his yoga, he is legally required to police it, or risk losing the right to his own name. And any customer of a chain business like this absolutely has the right to take a complaint all the way up the chain of command.
I imagine the reason that they don't usually intervene when someone is mangling the dialogue is because it happens a lot and because it is mostly harmless. But in this case a paying customer is a) being offended and b) complaining about it publicly where others may be put off as well.
Ferret |
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| Yep, that's EXACTLY what I think!! I know that what you're describing is good business practice, but trust me, this is NOT the world's most smoothly run business. Sorry, Bikram!! It's not that he himself doesn't CARE, but 1) good luck getting to him and 2) what's he gonna do? There's no system for filing and handling complaints. |
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| DancingJ--if Bikram gets complaints about a particular studio or teacher, he can pick up the phone and talk to them, for starters. As for point 1) as far as I know, the USPS serves LA just the same as the rest of the country.
It's too bad that you believe that contacting the corporation would be a futile gesture, but sometimes a gesture means a lot.
Ferret |
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| We have one Bikram's studio in town, and complaining about one instructor there would be bringing the studio to unwanted attention. And since the instructor in question is actually the OWNER, getting Bikram involved would be kind of counterproductive in the grand sense. Kind of like cutting off my nose to spite my face. If this studio closes, then I'm SOL here, cause this is IT for 2 hours in any direction (the joys of a small town). I just let it flow over me and get on with it! They also post the instructor schedule and I can pick and choose the classes accordingly...
Edited by freiamaya 2010-01-10 9:24 PM
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Is there a link between physical flexibility and personality?
