|
|
| thedancingj - 2009-12-04 4:30 PM
Holy crap, everyone's posting at once. Jim and Bruce, you guys are KILLING me!! Love it! Bruce is so funny, and Jim is so dead serious... ;-)
I'm insulted that you don't find my posts funny! Where is your sense of fun??? I can't believe that I'm too subtle!
|
|
| |
|
| Hey guys, at least Bruce actually got into the race, even if he finished first! Some guys finish before they even start, so to speak...
Edited by freiamaya 2009-12-04 7:38 PM
|
|
| |
|
| jimg - 2009-12-04 4:35 PM
thedancingj - 2009-12-04 4:30 PM
Holy crap, everyone's posting at once. Jim and Bruce, you guys are KILLING me!! Love it! Bruce is so funny, and Jim is so dead serious... ;-)
I'm insulted that you don't find my posts funny! Where is your sense of fun??? I can't believe that I'm too subtle!
Nah, I gotcha! I think the word for your humor is DEADPAN!! Did not mean to put down your humor style...  |
|
| |
|
| freiamaya - 2009-12-04 4:37 PM
Hey guys, at least Bruce actually got into the race, even if he finished first! Some guys finish before they even start, so to speak...
And some guys are just running around all by themselves..... |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
 
| Dear laughing thedancingj, When I first started going to different yoga classes over 20 years ago I did many times and thought it was great at the time and even thought it meant I was progressing. How wrong I was back then. I even taught that to people when I first started teaching yoga.
However I learnt and moved on, being very glad I did as my students are now stronger and more flexible than ever. One guy in his late 60s says he can run better for a bus now than he could 5 years ago (that was after 10 years of more physical yoga).
The body is and extension of the mind, not separate from it. One cant function with the other. |
|
| |
|
| ROFL ms dancingj!!!
Edited by freiamaya 2009-12-04 7:41 PM
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Funnily enough I remember an interview with Birkam when he was boasting of a woman being sore for days after hours of sex in one night (How gentle and kind-not). He must have been the loser. Go there Brucie! |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Just re-checked the interview on an old vhs. He says, she was so sore after a whole night of sex that she couldnt walk for day. Thats so nice of Mr Bikram and probably sums up the posts on this page in his own words. The woman should have gone for brucie (as long as shes his kinda woman and brucie isnt fighting of his female fans). |
|
| |
|
| You have old VHS videos of Bikram?! Nice... sure does sound like him.... |
|
| |
|
| I think that the subject of backbends and the resulting soreness has migrated a bit from it's original frame of reference.
Edited by jimg 2009-12-05 12:49 AM
|
|
| |
|
| I have never had any soreness in my back from backbends, and I have made quite a lot of progress in them since I started. I am getting a lot of compliments and starting to see floor (depending on where I stand), and feeling a pull from gravity. I do believe this is flexibility that was present in my body and that the changes have been in the brain, with a little improvement in core strength to support the weight of my torso. When I am backbending, I feel the muscles on the front of my body activating and supporting me. I am not feeling strain in my actual back. Sometimes there is a pinching kind of discomfort during the pose if my back is fatigued from too long at my desk or something, but my back always feels fantastic after class. I don't have the experience to say that soreness is abnormal after class, but in my experience at least, soreness is not necessary to progress in the backbend.
I have had occasional soreness from strength-building exercises, especially in the quads. Vibes, I think it is possible that your body adapted to yoga a long time ago and this is why you no longer feel the soreness of growing muscles. There doesn't seem to be much reason to continuously grow and grow muscles in yoga, but it's almost inevitable that the beginning phase will involve some muscle soreness as the body adapts to the new activity. I think it's a good point that this is a beginners class, and unlike other competitive sports, many of the beginners are people in middle age or older who have never done strenuous physical activity before. The truth is we are not babies, we are adults, and being an adult means doing hard stuff that might make us cry, rather than having every need or whim catered to by a hovering maternal figure. I know I wouldn't be a very good Mom or human being if I didn't endure pain and practice sacrifice in my life--something I would never expect of an infant. There are some people who need to nurture themselves more as part of healing from trauma in their lives, but doing something difficult or physically uncomfortable and experiencing a reward IS nurturing.
Ferret |
|
| |
|
| Alright, Ferret's getting us back on track, and I think that was very well put!
As a side note, my back is RIDICULOUSLY sore right now because I DIDN'T practice much this week. Sitting at a desk stressing out over a thesis is WAY more painful than doing yoga postures. So tensed up, I could barely do the first backbend today at all.  Note for the future... I would always rather err on the side of too much yoga practice than not enough!! |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Hi Ferret and dancinglaughingj! It is not because my body has adapted. It is because I have a better awareness. Beginners can be taught with the same awareness to prevent soreness. With the awareness one will improve during the days when not practicing yoga. Ive seen yoga students on a beginner level, in certain yoga classes not suffering from backaches even when going further than advanced yoga practioners who push themselves.
In the same way Bikrams women do not have to be sore with or without sex (oh no-Im sending this back onto the other track) |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Mind you.The opposite is also true. I have seen beginners getting really sore going further than beginners that dont go too far into postures too. I feel its more to do with quality of what you do than quantity. Now it back on track again! |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Above I meant-Seeing beginners getting sore going less into postures than advanced peeps going far into them.. |
|
| |
|
| thedancingj - 2009-12-06 12:36 AM
As a side note, my back is RIDICULOUSLY sore right now because I DIDN'T practice much this week. Sitting at a desk stressing out over a thesis is WAY more painful than doing yoga postures. So tensed up, I could barely do the first backbend today at all.
Two sun salutations after each hour of working at your desk as well as trying to remember to keep good posture and keep your neck and shoulders relaxed while working will help a lot.
Soreness comes from doing life with poor alignment more often than from doing yoga with poor alignment!
Remember the good example of cats and dogs, who do yoga throughout the day on an "as needed" basis. (They have better body awareness than we do because they are not side-tracked with a bunch of words in their heads. I am not advocating decreased thought, but rather increased body awareness.) My dogs will even wake up in the middle of a nap, do up dog followed by down dog and then go right back to sleep! |
|
| |
|
| Go back, way back, fall back. Don't worry if it hurts. It's supposed to hurt. |
|
| |
|
| one of the problems with the "argument" here is that we are talking about a subjective extensions of a objective experience.
when doing any physical movement at all, we are stimulating our muscles and, in fact, our whole bodies. when our bodies are stimulated in new ways, then the muscles (etc) often become fatigued and certain things crop up like lactic acid build up and so on. this is the "factual" element or objective element that happens in the body.
now, everything after is subjective. so, we have--i would say--three levels of interpretive subjectivity in this matter, all based on how we perceive the impact of stimuli on the body.
first, we have the descriptive subjectivity: what does this feel like? here, we've agreed that this physical, objective reality is called "soreness." i consider this subjective because it has a negative connotation to many people, even though others--such as myself--experience this objective experience as a pleasurable.
when i feel "sore" as i did after the back bend workshop, i felt good--note, i do not feel sore during or after my usual practice, and i did not feel sore during the workshop, nor feel any pain what so ever. but, the next day, i felt "sore," and i loved the way that my back felt (new and different) as i moved through my normal practice and through my day. for me, it was pleasurable.
beyond this concept of soreness, we have another subjective element--whether or not the presence of 'soreness' indicates that we are doing the thing correctly or incorrectly. this may have other objective components, but is still a subjective (inferred) determination.
and then further, there is the assertion as to whether or not soreness has moral relevance. if we are sore, then it indicates that we are either acting violently and unkindly (towards ourselves or our students), or if not, then we are acting non-violently and kindly. and honestly, i think it's ridiculous to assert that someone is immoral for being sore or because their clients may be sore after a practice.
my experience is this: new stimuli--whether intellectual (eg, "learning something new") or physical (doing something new or for a longer duration than normal) or even spiritual is a stimuli. it is new. new has both positives and negatives and it is often the determination of the individual's mind as to whether or not ti is overall positive or negative.
for me, learning often has challenges--which to some has a negative connotation, whereas to me, it inspires and motivates and creates pleasure. doing means trying new things, going to new places, seeing what can happen, and it may have some discomforts and result in some soreness--but i revel in it and enjoy both the process and the new feeling at the outcome.
so, for someone else to impose a moral element on my experience because of their subjective interpretation and implied meaning on words like "challenge" and "soreness" (which denotes a desire to eschew pain/discomfort/negative shadow side) seems down right ...
i can't even think of the word... imperious? ludicrous? nuts?
|
|
| |
|
| Bikram told me that if it doesn't hurt then you are doing it wrong. |
|
| |
|
| also, this may or may not be relevant, but i thought to post it anyway...
my birth was a pleasurable experience. my yoga practice--which develops many layers of personal awareness--was certainly a part of this equation.
part of yoga practice is--in my experience--no longer seeing or experiencing these as 'extremes' so much so as simply experiencing them. and then, you discover what it "feels" like.
so, my birth--which was 24 hrs of labor with the last two being "active" or "hard" labor--was pleasurable. now, i both experienced it as pleasurable, and i think that it was inherently so, but i do reserve for myself the idea that had another woman had an identical birth, it might have been painful for her. i cannot say for certain, but perhaps that is true.
the largest part of my labor was deeply peaceful and meditative. from 8:30 am until 10:30 pm (i had been pleasurably laboring with ecstatic movements and orgasm from 12:30 am until 8:30 am), i mostly sat and felt my body labor. it was beautiful feeling. i would have an intense warmth in the bowl of my pelvis, and undulating massage circulating around and around, and then the baby would wiggle and move. my whole experience was this. our home was quiet, ryan was reading and meditating, and all i did was sit and be in the labor and ENJOYED it.
the 'hard' labor was another round of amazing ecstatic movement coupled with intense sounding (screaming at the top of my lungs in a specific tonal pattern determined by my body). i did a sequence of camel pose, upward dog, followed by a hands and knees "push" (involuntary--i didn't "choose" it, i just did what felt right for my body and my body did the pushing), and then a few (usually 1-3 breaths) rest. i did this for two hours. i didn't even realize i was sweating. ryan told me that later.
now, according to all of the evidence, i had a posterior baby, a back labor, and a 'sunny side up' or 'star gazing' baby. that is, he was not born in the best position. the widest part of his head came out first, the back labor is supposed to be the most excruciating labor know to womankind.
but *I* had a pleasurable birth. my experience (or perhaps simply interpretation of what i was experiencing physically) was enjoyment and pleasure.
i am not *better* than other women. "painful" birth is not violent, unkind, immoral.
it's just *birth*. birth happens. it goes as it does and sometmes the mama is just along for the ride and goodness only knows what that is going to feel like or be for her. i don't know. and i can't say.
and i'm not going to say that a painful birth means that she is bad, wrong, or what have you. goodness knows.
and here's the weird thing. i never thought to concern myself with after the birth--with my body. but i was SORE. i had an intensely pleasurable, perfectly normal (biologically) birth with no physical trauma what so ever (no tears, not even a lot of blood or swelling), and yet i was SORE afterwards.
i worked hard. i hard a peak experience. i was sore and tired afterwards.
but man, i was blissed out and happy about all of it.
i wasn't violent or unkind to myself or my baby. what i did wasn't unusual or unnatural for a female body. but i was sore. you know, because i worked hard. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Bikram told you if it doesnt hurt than you are doing it wrong? I cant beleive he said that. He obviously does not understand what he claims to have developed or he does not understand the workings of a human or you misheard him.
Life can be violent. Sometimes its essential. Just as habits are essential although we can develop bad habits. This s no reason to cause ourselves needless pain and strain. Life has got enough of it already. |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Thanks for sharing that ZB.
I'm so over this thread about soreness issue. For anyone reading this thread and thinking that something is wrong with you, or that you've been doing your yoga incorrectly because you are sore, please know that you are quite NORMAL. Peace OUT! |
|
| |
|
| I totally agree that soreness is a relative term. It could mean pain or it could just mean sensation. Our experience of each is subjective.
If you work a muscle more than you normally do, it will be sore as it rebuilds to the new level of use. If you do the same thing repeatedly, your body rebuilds to that level (your new norm) and should no longer be sore afterwards.
If you are doing Bikram yoga regularly, you are doing the same exercises for the same duration every time. If it is new to you, you will probably be sore at first. If you are sore on a regular basis from doing the same thing, the soreness is not from building muscle, but from stressing your joints, discs, ligaments etc. You do need to understand the cause of your soreness and whether it is from building your body or from tearing it down. Sometimes it is a very fine line.
I think that many people want things to be simple as in "pain is good for you" or "pain is bad for you". It is not that simple. Sometimes pain is something that you need to work through and sometimes pain is your body screaming at you to stop hurting it. As long as you are dealing with the experience from a dogmatic point of view (following someone else or a particular point of view without self knowledge or practical judgement), you are unlikely to be making good decisions. Awareness of what your body is telling you and knowledge about your mind and body will help you make better decisions.
We all want to have pleasure and avoid pain. Those who embrace pain only do so in the hopes of greater pleasure later. You cannot have one without the other because if you block the receptors for pain, you are also blocking pleasure and vice versa. Discomfort and a certain amount of pain are necessary for growth. Pain is like medicine. The difference between a medicine and a poison is the dosage. It all comes down to balance. Balance between comfort and discomfort, control and surrender, action and relaxation, strength and flexibility, the critical mind and the compassionate heart.
|
|
| |
|
| Vibes it is obvious you don't practice Bikram yoga, so what is your interest here, except to troll the board? It sounds like you have a rewarding practice that you enjoy. What is the point of criticizing someone else's practice? Bikram is not forced on anyone, and from what I can tell the other styles have no lack of students.
Cyndi--I, too, was sore all over after giving birth. I did not experience it as pleasurable. I have heard that some women experience pleasurable sensations during birth, but I thank you for reserving judgment on women who do not. Quite often the next thing after that is a criticism that a woman who experiences real pain is "doing it wrong" some how. We all have unique anatomy and physiology, and even our nervous system is wired differently. After experiencing excruciating, unbearable pain during childbirth, and having another experience of great pain, I had the opportunity to have a neurological test called an EMG which confirmed that my nerve conductance is at the very high end of normal, which I think explains why certain sensations have been overwhelming for me. Had I bought into the idea that my pain was the result of some kind of subconscious violent self-abuse or whatever, I would have blamed myself for the pain and suffered a lifelong feeling of inadequacy. Instead, I shrugged and moved on. I am happy to say that most often my body gives me great pleasure, and I now have great awareness of how to deal with pain in my own body. (Like Cyndi, I do relish the feeling of sore muscles after a good workout.) As well, I have learned to appreciate my body's exquisite sensitivity, since it has mostly been a blessing to me.
Ferret |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | ferret - 2009-12-07 1:31 PM
Cyndi--I, too, was sore all over after giving birth. I did not experience it as pleasurable. I have heard that some women experience pleasurable sensations during birth, but I thank you for reserving judgment on women who do not.
I'm not even gonna go there with the soreness and pain that I had during my childbirths...2 C-sections=PAIN,  I would love to go back with all the knowledge I have today..you have no idea. The main thing is that we are evolving on so many levels here. What's neat is that alternatives are becoming more and more acceptable and its so much healthier for us. My Massage Therapy teacher told us the other night that she did a home child birth and explained the entire thing...I was like WOW!! 
(Like Cyndi, I do relish the feeling of sore muscles after a good workout.) As well, I have learned to appreciate my body's exquisite sensitivity, since it has mostly been a blessing to me.
Oh yeah, of course. Pain (okay, let's not call it that, we'll call it soreness or how bout' that place of touching or knocking at discomfort's door) and Pleasure is like the Yin and Yang...can't have one without the other, |
|
| |
backbends and soreness.
