|
|
| hello everybody.
i was just wondering if you guys practise your backbends - anything that involves bending your spine backwards. and just wondering how long did the soreness in your back last? is it normal for the back to be sore all the time as long as you keep practising? last check with teachers - common to sore, can be sore up to a year. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
 
| It will be sore if you are doing something harmful. Much like your hand will be sore if you let it get run over by a bus. Dont hurt yourself-its silly. |
|
| |
|
| this question is hard to answer because people define things differently. case in point, a friend of mine was rubbing his shoulder while saying "wow, my chest is really sore." honestly, people have no clue about themselves.
so, i can say that if you have pain that inhibits your ability to move or do normal activities--no matter how minor--then that is probably injurious.
but muscle soreness--which comes from exercise and exerting yourself--can be fine and completely perpetual. my husband lifts weights twice a week. he lifts as heavy as he can for a certain number of reps, and by the end of the cycle, it's for as many reps as he can at that weight.
after each workout, he is sore. he's not inhibited, but he can "feel" the work that he did at his workout. it's not bruised feeling (eg, sore to the touch if you press it, massaging it feels good), but it is sore. and it will be sore until his next workout, and then he makes himself sore again. so, for him--yes, perpetual soreness is fine, because he's constantly building muscle.
we can debate whether or not that is injurious.
anyway, in yoga, a lot of the things that we do are to build muscle or at least balance muscle strength, and therefore build sterngth which requires building muscle. we do this through the movements that we do, and back bends build back muscle--particularly the spinal erectors that run along the side of the spine.
and here is where it gets tricky, like with m friend. because it is so close to the spine, people can confuse the muscle soreness for spinal issues and the back off when they don't need to, or they will confuse a spinal issue with muscle soreness,s and then injure themselves as they "push through."
so the real trick is figuring out what kind of "soreness" someone is feeling. and honestly, as a teacher, i do that with a lot of questions.
if a student comes up to me and says "is it normal for m back to be sore for days after class?" i ask questions like this: where are you feeling the soreness predominately? how sharp is it? is it constant or only when you do certain movements? would you describe it as a deep, constant throb or more like a sharp stabbing or pinching, or a pulling feeling that seems constant or stays for a bit?
and there are others. when a student asks me a question about pain or discomfort, i do not just say "oh, that's normal!" right away, or tell them that it can be that way for up to a year. i find out whether or not their pain is "good" such as muscle soreness from proper work, or "bad" such as poor alignment leading to compressions or pulls that are injurious. and from there, i direct them into correct alignment of various postures (and skip or modify certain postures), so that they can get benefit without injury.
it is one of my complaints about many yoga teachers, but hot yoga teachers in particular, that they just brush it off as ok and say "keep practicing!" even though that person is practicing themselves right into surgery.
and for my own part, i recently did a back-bend focused workshop, and while i do back bends every day and don't generally feel soreness from it, after this workshop, i definitely did for a couple of days. |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 13
Location: Texas | I agree with what zoe said.
I finished up my 215th Bikram class in 215 days last night. I have only been doing Bikram for only 8 months and was horribly out of shape when I started... I've been steadily building strength and flexibility since I started... and I have been "sore" nearly every one of those 200+ days. I have made a LOT of progress in the spine strengthening series this past month... and my back is pretty sore, but it's pretty obvious to me that it's muscle soreness. |
|
| |
|
| If your lower back is sore after yoga on a regular basis, you are probably compressing your lower back in backbends. (Assuming that you are not forcing and stressing it in forward bends. If you are, simply soften your knees and bend more from the hips instead of the waist.) Compression of the lower back is a common result of forcing and hinging the lower back to achieve increased depth in backbends.
It is extremely important to extend the entire spine from the tailbone to the skull in backbends, making a large arc instead of focusing the bend on the lower back. Thinking of backbends as front stretches often helps, as does extending the spine, opening the chest and then lifting the ribs as you go into the backbend. Tucking the tailbone and keeping the lower abdomen lifted in and up can also help protect the lower back in backbends.
Whether backbends, forward bends or twists, it is always best for the spine to be extended, so that any stress is equally distributed throughout the spine, instead of focused on one or two vertebrae.
If you view your backbends as a way of keeping a youthful spine into advanced old age instead of a short term goal to see how far you can go today, you will be doing yourself a big favor.
Yoga is for the rest of your life! Don't burn out because you are impatient.
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| I cant believe what some of you guys are writting here. Jimg seems to be the only one with common sense. Look- when you make love with a violent approach you and your partner may be sore the next day. But when you do it with gentle, tender,sensitive, loving,caring appraoach, if sore at all it will be far less. Infact it is the same with all exercises too. So if you are sore in from yoga, the way you do it, is of a poor approach,possibly with a lack of confidence or skill, so you have to push yourselves, reducing your sensitivity.
If you are sore as a result of movement in and out of postures, you (or you brain) will always associate movement in and out of postures with discomfort and pain. How can that be good for getting rid of stress and helping clam ones nerves. Yes maybe you will take your attention from some stress somewhere, but will replace it with more somewhere else.
Years ago people used to think that if one has a sore back he has weak abdominal muscles. So abdominal muscles tightening exercises were prescribed, which sometimes helped but often the problem would be aggravated or worsened. What is now known is that when the muscles of the back relax from the tense overly contracted state, the abdominal muscles immediately regain their strength. However Ive heard that some people with back issues still use this approach. So it may be the same with some yoga teachers who have just done a misguided yoga training and dont understand that comfort and being able to adapt is more beneficial than forcing oneself and injuring oneself the process. Come on guys-where is your common sense? The earth is no longer believed to be square! |
|
| |
|
| I'm confused! In every single other sport in which friends of mine are proficient and/or competitive, they ALL discuss going into the "pain zone" during training. Every. Single. One. For them to progress, they need to push their particular edge. DH is a runner -- he hates it but has to go into the pain zone in order to improve cardiovascularly (speed work) or endurance (long, long runs). He does a 10k in a sub-40 minute time -- far from competitive but still pretty damn good. For an old guy, too. He wouldn't be there without going into the pain zone. Yoga is no different, UNLESS you are trying for a meditative or relaxation-type of experience. Which is valid if you choose this path. Those of us who want to improve our flexibility, conditioning, and balance need to find the personal edge of discomfort and push just a little bit beyond. I don't mean that you should tear your hamstrings in order to lock your knees. But you shouldn't be afraid of a little pre/during/post work-out pain. Knowing that some discomfort is normal and adjusting accordingly within your limits will keep you safe, but will still allow you to actually progress. Proper form is crucial. And so is going past the comfort zone IF you choose to progress within your practice.
Edited by freiamaya 2009-12-03 7:55 PM
|
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I'm almost tempted to not write but I'm kinda irritated that some of our entire posts got deleted!!! All I'm going to say now is that what most of you are forgetting or maybe don't quite understand is that Yoga Asana's are the physical aspect of Yoga and most of us come into the practice of Yoga with pretty lousy and out of shape bodies. So now we are trying to re-build and tone up our bodies and we expect no pain and soreness??? It has nothing to do with violence, what is violent is NOT doing anything and continuing with bad unhealthy habits!!
Edited by Cyndi 2009-12-03 8:46 PM
|
|
| |
|
| So sad, I wrote two LONG replies which have BOTH been deleted and now I don't have the patience to say everything a third time. I agree with Cyndi in everything.
I don't think you should be sore or in pain ALL the time, but it's certainly normal if it happens SOME of the time. If you use a muscle that you've never used before, then yep, it's gonna wake up and say "HI GUYS WHAT'S GOING ON?" That's part of the process. If a certain part of your body is sore EVERY day for months on end, then you probably want to re-examine your alignment and technique in your postures.
In brief: ALWAYS sore = possibly bad, check your technique. NEVER sore = equally bad, you're not changing your body at all. SOMETIME sore = good, you are working. That's MY version of common sense! |
|
| |
|
| thedancingj - 2009-12-03 6:00 PM
In brief: ALWAYS sore = possibly bad, check your technique. NEVER sore = equally bad, you're not changing your body at all. SOMETIME sore = good, you are working. That's MY version of common sense!
EXCELLENT! Thank you thedancingj!
Soreness from use is good. Soreness from abuse is bad. The art of yoga is knowing the difference.
Yoga and sport have similarities, but are different.
Yoga is not a competitive sport where you are trying to be better than someone else. Yoga is a method of developing your mind, body and spirit so that you are able to more fully experience life; so that you not only keep it all in working order for many years, but can also improve it's current working condition and its integration/balance. Competitive sports have goals. Yoga is a process. It is not a sport, but rather an art and a science.
Winning in yoga is enjoying health and happiness. Winning in sport is performing better than somebody else.
I am not against competition or sport. They are great, but they are not yoga. |
|
| |
|
| i was shocked too to find out the posts have been deleted! what exactly happen?
anyway, i find jtmg making the most most sense. |
|
| |
|
| Hmm, now I'm confused. Why then does Bikram have a competitive yoga position, and wants it included in the Olympics? Doesn't Bikram with his competitions endorse the concept of progression and improvement through effort?
The point I was making is that for every physical activity (aka sport), to progress you need to work it! Not over-work it, but WORK it if you want to improve. Improvement comes with effort, and unfortunately sometimes soreness. Unless you want a meditative approach to Yoga. Not everyone does. And don't forget that lots of people find running and swimming meditative, too, and Yoga isn't the ONLY physical activity that promotes a mind-body connection through the integration of motion and thought process.
|
|
| |
|
| Comrades, we've alerted the system administrator, Piel: he-who-must-be-obeyed, to the disappearing posts. Will keep you posted. |
|
| |
|
| freiamaya - 2009-12-04 8:47 AM
lots of people find running and swimming meditative, too, and Yoga isn't the ONLY physical activity that promotes a mind-body connection through the integration of motion and thought process.
Competitive running and swimming are not meditative. Non-competitive running and swimming can be, as can dance, sex, climbing, playing a musical instrument and a whole lot of other physical activities. When physical activities, (including asana practice) are done with awareness, sensitivity and openness, they are yoga. When they are done in a competitive spirit (as in performing better than someone or something) they are sport.
As far as Bikram's yoga competitions go, they are yoga asanas as sport. There is nothing wrong with this as long as you understand that it is sport and not yoga.
If you are thinking that the Bikram approach is either superior or inferior to another approach, you are being competitive.
We humans are competitive, whether we want to be so or not. Some people even compete to see who can be the most "non competitive"! This is why awareness is so important. When we are aware of our inherent competitive nature, we can use it to our advantage instead of it using us.
|
|
| |
|
| jimg--I've never had meditative sex--have had some competitive though...I finished first so I won. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| You do not need to be sore to become more flexible. Unless you only know one or two ways to become flexible which strain the body resulting in being sore after. Or maybe you think that being flexible means to stretch a muscles/muscles, resulting in the nervous system activating the stretch reflex which contracts muscles after they stretch to protect muscles from over stretching, which makes us feel stiff and sometimes sore too-this is not flexibility.
A baby which needs to learn how to become flexible to develop and becomes more flexible than anyone writing here,never goes to a yoga class and naturally finds a way to become incredibly flexible,strong and improve balance. The difference is that a baby learns to become flexible and anyone complaining of soreness here does not use sensory motor learning but just pushes and stretches.So you are probably not learning but just pushing yourselves. A baby learns in the first 2 years of their life than at any other time in life. They never complain about soreness-only the odd bit of wind and when hungry or requiring loving cuddles aaaaaaaaah. This is rarely not the case when suffering from certain conditions. It is the same with sports. Most people here wouldn't be able to keep up with a babys work out unless they use sensory motor learning instead of damaging themselves because they lack confidence in themselves to feel their way through improving without getting sore.
I know a lady in her 60s who laughed at the chance of her doing a splitz during an extremely gentle,non pushing class. She later ate her words when she could do a splitz (better than the younger people who were pushing a bit),just 30 mins later. She never experienced that level of flexibility before and didnt complain of soreness the following week either.
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Sometime sore= lack of awareness in order to be free from soreness. Soreness=poor habits/patters of movement/lack of awareness/lack of being open to improve/lack of confidence so push hard. Never sore=extremely lucky to have perfected the self to such a degree without allowing poor habits to develop (very very rare). |
|
| |
|
| vibes - 2009-12-04 1:03 PM
You do not need to be sore to become more flexible.
Agreed! But you DO often become sore when building muscle. Flexibility is only half of the yoga practice. The other half is strength. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Glad thats cleared up. Its just common sense. Which unfortuantely seems to be lacking in the world. But the above mentioned is small part of yoga. Awareness is more than half. Without awareness we cannot move.Without a balance of stability and instability (or no movement and movement) we cannot become flexible or strong. Building muscle isnt what gives us strength. Strength/movement comes from the core which is the brain.e.g. Muhamed Ali the boxer has great built muscles,but when unfortuantely suffering with the neurological disorder-parkinsons disease, he is weak. If you ever go to China or Japan, if you are lucky enough you will see an old man without big muscles destroying to embarassing levels a young built strong martial artist. Why? Because he has great awareness skill and coordination,while moving lightly and softly as compared to a heavily built martial artist. I have seen it when last in China. Pushing to build muscles and going through pain to do so disturbs the nervous system-read any good books on neuro-science to understand more. |
|
| |
|
| I use my strength to improve my flexibility. This leaves my muscles sore. I use my flexibility to improve my strength. This leaves my muscles sore. Training for competitive swimming/running absolutely can be meditative -- ever zoned out on a long run while training for endurance? It happens... and most runner and swimmers are competitive in the same sense as yoga practitioners -- against themselves for whatever ends they choose to meet, be it speed or endurance or just finishing a 5k run.
If you don't enter a discomfort zone, you won't progress. It is that simple. To address your analogy, vibes, you don't build muscle unless you stress them to the point where muscle fibers actually tear. The process of repairing those muscle fibers results in muscle hypertrophy. To work to the point where you don't "damage" your muscles means you won't progress with respect to using your flexibility to improve your strength. Entering the pain zone or "discomfort zone" if you prefer is not to be feared! Even Bikram says this -- while going into the first backbend, the dialogue says "your back will hurt like hell but don't be scared". If that isn't an invitation to enter the pain zone, what is it??? He sure doesn't say "OK, do a backward bend but make sure that you are meditating and feeling absolutely no stress or strain anywheres because you need to be comfortable while doing yoga". His entire dialogue is pretty much an exhortation to push yourself to an honest 100% of your ability that day.
Edited by freiamaya 2009-12-04 6:51 PM
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Dear freiamaya- does a child learn better when comfortable or uncomfortable. Try shouting and pushing a child till they bleed emotionally or gently use kind wisdom,understanding and skill-what works better? A baby knows to sleep after learning/discovering/before overuse of muscles. If you forced that baby to continue, he will be traumatized and suffer with soreness.Babys using these tactics develop far quicker than with a pushing approach. Why do it to yourself? You were once a baby and are deep inside a gentle delicate character that deserves love and understanding. Yoga is a science not a circus full of acrobats. Yes we all experience pain. But then you can learn from it. Just as you can learn from any experience and not continue to suffer from it. Have more self confidence and question everything from me to Bikram, Iyengar,Buddha and be yourself which is important to good yoga practice, unless you want to be a sheep that follows in anothers footsteps,and associate yoga or movement with discomfort. The harder you try, the harder your life will become. Why grit your teeth to exercise your facial muscles? Do you speak by stretching your mouth as much as possible to your limits of pain? You will even look better if you learn to relax. |
|
| |
|
| Bruce - 2009-12-04 12:58 PM
jimg--I've never had meditative sex--have had some competitive though...I finished first so I won.
Bruce,
If you have never had meditative sex, you need to start learning about active meditation (meditation in action) as opposed to only passive meditation. Meditation is when you are totally aware and in the present moment without mental chatter. It is a wonderful quality for a variety of activities.
If you think that you won because you finished first, you are not a gentleman. A gentleman always lets the woman finish first (assuming you were talking about sex with a woman, if not, I have no opinions). Maybe I'm just old school here.
jimg |
|
| |
|
| vibes, you are funny. I'm starting to feel like what we have here is a failure to communicate.
I agree with 90% of your nice theories, and no one is saying that yogis should try to become built like body-builders! Some of the "weakest" people in the world are folks with huge muscles. But you know, we're talking about beginning yoga here. Most people have WEAK muscles when they start. And you can't do too much with a weak body, no matter how strong your mind is, so you need to build physical strength ALONG WITH the mental strength. That's the whole IDEA behind hatha yoga - that you need to bring your body into balance first, and that will prepare you for all the other stuff.
Have you NEVER experienced a pleasant soreness in your own body after having a great yoga practice? Not ONCE? That is obviously where we are not connecting. If you've felt it, you'd know that there is nothing bad about it! |
|
| |
|
| Holy crap, everyone's posting at once. Jim and Bruce, you guys are KILLING me!! Love it! Bruce is so funny, and Jim is so dead serious... ;-) |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Hey jimg. Must have been on same wavelength. we both posted our last posts at the same time. |
|
| |
backbends and soreness.
