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| i feel deeply, deeply blessed that my birth was unassisted at home. had anyone been there (and midwives have certain legal requirements that the "have to" do here), i truly believe that would not have been as super-awesome as it was.
Edited by zoebird 2009-12-07 2:51 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
 
| I have done several yoga styles over the years including bikram. But feel that it can be done without causing unneccesary pain. Just as with sex. Bikram boasted he made a woman so sore after a whole night of sex. You could do the same without causing one to be sore. We are all unique and special. Isnt it better to get rid of pain than cause it?
ZB-you are very blessed to have had an unassisted homebirth. What an amazing experience!!! |
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| What's the obsession with sex, vibes? Honestly!!!!
And childbirth? Practicing yoga doesn't mean you won't have birth complications. No magic there, just physiology and unfortunate circumstance.
And working hard during a yoga class and having sore muscles afterwards has little to do with the previous two topics!
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| sure, i think unnecessary pain should be avoided. but i don't think that all pain, challenge, discomfort, upset, etc need to be. sometimes, that's just the experience, and in my personal world, that experience usually ends up "for the better."
also, i brought up birth, so that's my deal.  i just brought it up because it was a pleasurable experience that created soreness, an indication to "not do too much too soon" for me at the time.
and it's true, practicing yoga doesn't mean that one will not have any birth complications. but it can help prepare women for labor, ease the discomforts or fast changes of pregnancy, prevent certain injuries common to pregnant women (not in all cases, but some), and it can help prepare the body for labor and birth.
but it's certainly no guarantee. a lot of what happens in birth is just what happens. |
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| Gotcha! Of course after I reread everything I finally got the jist of what you were saying but it was too late to edit my irritating post! Still stand by the sex comments, tho!
Glad you had a great birth experience. Isn't it amazing what pleasure can actually come out of pain?
:hug: |
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| but that's just it, i didn't have pain. i only had pleasure. but yes, there is the question of the pleasure-pain matrix.  |
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| Everything you will ever need to know about yoga is in the dialogue. Bikram told us so at teacher training - all the rest is mental masturbation. Damn it people, he is a yoga master and a yoga champion! It is all there in the dialogue. |
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| Hi Leslie,
Thank you for living up to your forum name.
Jim |
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| oh
my god
a yoga master
AND
a yoga champion!
it makes me feel the need to
insert unnecessary line breaks!
...
if i ever have a child, i will play the bikram yoga dialogue for it as it sleeps.
so it can know all there is to know about yoga
...
it's all there people! |
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| Hmm, what's new over here... ooh, that was a cool story from Zoe... lemme read further down the page and see if anyone has made any well-put arguments from the pure Bikram side of the debate...
*face-palm*
Sometimes I think we need, like, debating 101 lessons around here. "Because ______ says so," in and of itself, will never win supporters in any kind of debate. Doesn't matter if you fill in the blank with "Einstein", "Ghandi", "the Pope", "Ron L. Hubbard" or "the planet sized computer named Deep Thought." And I'm one of those people who's a heartbeat away from sleeping with the dialogue under my pillow, but I'll never give you a line from that thing without telling you WHY I like it. (And if you REALLY wanna know why I think the dialogue is a good idea, come have a bottle of wine with me and listen for a couple hours. Because that's what I like to talk about after a glass of red Zin.)
Did I make my point, yes or no?
That concludes this little tangent of mine. We now return you to your regularly scheduled.... tangents.
(I get kinda sarcastic when I'm sleepy, don't I?! I must be tapping back into my inner 13-year-old, who was practically a professional at it.) |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| What! As Bikram said if its not painful its not good. Cause yourself pain for goodness sake, we cant have you enjoying life without being sore. lol |
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| for me, the real issue is that english is the second language. so, the nuances in english aren't there. i wonder how it was when he taught in japan. or did he teach in english in japan too? or do you teach it in japanese?
anyway, that's a side thing. i think there are 'translation' or 'nuance' issues with the dialogue (or monologue). but, overall, when i 'translate' those things for myself (eg "lock the knee" equals "lift the knee cap keeping the leg strong"), the the dialogue makes sense.
when it comes to his description of pain, i see it as encouragement to embrace the discomforts (physical and otherwise) that newness (afterall, it is a beginner's sequence) brings. yoga postures are not always easy or comfortable. i like to go to the point of discomfort, feeling uncomfortable, which mean people translate as "pain."
so, i don't think he's really wrong about that description, the problem (for me) is that it isn't nuanced. i describe the nuance between discomfort and pain, because pain indicates injury--that's the nuance of the meaning of mean that i utilize to note whether or not my students are going too far, to the point of injury.
for me, and for my students, we go to the point of discomfort in the poses. this allows us, in a safe environment, to explore our reactions to uncomfortable situations. so, for example, when i am uncomfortable by hawk's screaming, i had to learn to make myself comfortable with it, and by returning to my yoga experience of relaxing into discomfort (such that it is no longer uncomfortable), i can then take that into my daily life.
and, i have become tolerant of his screaming. but let me nuance that as well. when he screams due to injury or upset, i comfort him. but right now, he's on a jag of screaming when frustrated by his toy or what have you. he wants me to "rescue" him from the frustration, which i did a few times and it stopped the screaming in that moment.
but then i realized that i was working against my value. my value is to have hawk learn and work through his frustration. he screams, i act to stop the screaming, even though it doesn't allow him to learn and work through his frustration.
this meant that i had to learn to be comfortable with his screaming in frustration. so, now, he screams and it might go on for 20 oe 30 minutes while he tries to figure out how to get the block into or out of the pot or whatever, and i had to learn to be comfortable with the discomfort.
so in yoga class, we learn to be comfortable, to breathe through or relax into the discomfort of the poses, and then we find, in life--as with hawk's screaming--that we are more comfortable with the discomfort. and eventually, that discomfort--in this case, the screaming--doesn't bother at all. |
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| oh, and btw, most screaming lasts less than 2-3 minutes. he figures it out and immediately stops screaming AND feels accomplished. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
   
| Are you teaching him sign language? That reduces screaming a lot.  I kinda wish my current three boys would scream instead of pulling out the outlet covers, climbing on high furniture and trying to get out the front door. I am soooo over toddlers and wanting some more sweet, adorable babies.......  But I am ever so glad to hear that you aren't rescuing and becoming a full time hand servant. (As if you ever would!) I've had a few of those over the years, as well.
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| he does know some sign and he has his own signs, so it works out.
but i'm specifically referring to when he's sitting quietly and playing on his own, and then his toy gets stuck in a way he didn't want or expect. he'll try to remove it once or twice, and then start screaming. and then, he'll keep screaming until he either walks away or figures it out.
the longest was when he got himself stuck under the coffee table. it has bars in a sort of curvy, arched pattern, and when he was smaller he would slide right through. so, he gets stuck this one day and isn't hurt, isn't in danger, but is stuck, and i let him scream until he figured it out.
and when he does, he goes "Yay!" and arms up and clapping and we say "you did it!"
and we also have a climber. no outlet covers, so nothing to worry about there, but yeah, he climbs. right now, onto the dining room table. |
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| dancing J...
i would certainly take you up on your offer
how do you look this weekend? |
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| zoebird - 2009-12-10 6:35 AM
and, i have become tolerant of his screaming. but let me nuance that as well. when he screams due to injury or upset, i comfort him. but right now, he's on a jag of screaming when frustrated by his toy or what have you. he wants me to "rescue" him from the frustration, which i did a few times and it stopped the screaming in that moment.
but then i realized that i was working against my value. my value is to have hawk learn and work through his frustration. he screams, i act to stop the screaming, even though it doesn't allow him to learn and work through his frustration.
this meant that i had to learn to be comfortable with his screaming in frustration. so, now, he screams and it might go on for 20 oe 30 minutes while he tries to figure out how to get the block into or out of the pot or whatever, and i had to learn to be comfortable with the discomfort.
I would be good to clarify here that you always go immediately to a screaming/crying BABY and pick it up and comfort it as well as trying to find the problem and remedy it. A TODDLER is a different matter and each situation is different and may require a different solution and/or interaction from the care giver. Those of us who have followed your posts here know you are talking about a toddler, but new folks may not. |
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| i look ridiculously busy this weekend - finishing a thesis, then doing the traveling yogi thing and driving 800 miles round trip around the california coast. (sweet.) but i'd be totally down sometime. |
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| sure, he's 15 mo but acts like he's two. mot people think he is. lol
toddler? baby? i can't figure it. but yeah, toddler. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| When I get new staff with the toddlers I work with they are often really frightened when I leave a child to figure those things out. They look at me in real horror sometimes when I just walk by and calmly say "well, you have yourself in a pickle there. How will you get out?  Sometimes I give them a clue or move their foot or leg in the right direction, but generally more moral support than physical. I can't vouch for every child I've ever cared for, but my own two are ridiculously self-reliant and capable individuals. |
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| yeah, i can tolerate a lot more than a lot of parents.
when we go out to playgrounds, other parents hover (even with 3-5 yr olds). they are right next to and talking to their kids the whole time.
the only time i do that is if the place is crowded, and i fear that hawk might get hit (by accident). otherwise, all social things are to be managed by him. he can play on his own without me.
case in point: we were at an indoor play area and another little girl (19 mo) was there. he walked over to her to play and showed her a toy. she took it and then took a couple of swipes at him. he backed up, but looked confused. the girl'ss mother was right there, and she just said "no, no" to the little girl.
later, hawk wanted to get on the play structure, adn the little girl was on it. sshe pushed him and knocked him off, clean on hiss back side. he landed, unhurt, and then looked at her. stood up, and was angry. he took three deep breaths to calm down, and then climbed back up. the girl went to push him again, and he stood up to his highest height and said "BAH!" the girl stepped back, eyes wide, and then she moved aside and hawk went down the slide. later, they were playing together fine.
the girl's mother told me, "you should be closer to him! i thought he was going to hit my daughter!" now, this 'admonishment' after she essentially did nothing about her daughter's actions toward hawk!
he always plays gently with other children because he understands "gentle." it was one of the first things we taught him. so, if he goes to a smaller child, i simply call out "gentle hawk" from wherever i am, and he is always gentle. but, if he's pushed or hit, he'll assert himself, take back toys, leave the area--without violence. just stnading tall and going "bah!" or "Mehmmee!" i don't know exactly what those mean, but they work for him.
the only parents who are angry with me are those helicopter parents whose kids tend to be more aggressive than those of us that give them more space. but the grandmas always tell me "he's such a good, sweet boy. he is gentle, but when pushed, he's no push-over, but doesn't hit or push back."
that's because i let him figure it out. or he watches me, or maybe it's just him. LOL |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | zoebird - 2009-12-10 7:41 PM
yeah, i can tolerate a lot more than a lot of parents.
This is an interesting statement ZB in the way it relates to the Pain Subject at hand, LOL!! |
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backbends and soreness.
