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| Hello all!
I have recently (within the last month) gotten pretty heavily into Bikram yoga.
I started the thirty day challenge right off the bat and went for 14 days in a row until my schedule got mixed up and now I usually miss one or two days a week but still going strong.
Before I ask my questions I want to preface it by saying that Bikram yoga may be one of the greatest things to happen to me. I have become more aware in my daily life, given up a couple bad habits, on a good sleep schedule for the first time in forever and just find myself an all around more loving individual towards myself and others.
That being said I am worried.
Despite being quite young my knees and elbows are not in the best shape. My left elbow sounds like a cement maker if i flex it enough eh!
I am worried that some of the poses may be inflaming my joints.
Recently my knee has started to ache and my elbows seem to be creaking more than usually.
I asked my teacher about the pose were we put elbows underneath are body and than lift up the legs. I was concerned because every time after this pose my elbows feel uncomfortable and have trouble moving, plus they get intense tingly sensations. Teacher told me it would turn into a hot pain and the tingling and other effectgs would eventually subside.
That just seems so wrong to me though, like i am hyperextending myelbows every time I do it. Any advice on this pose? I hate skipping it cause I feel I'm not working hard enough but I also see the potential for injury.
Also, should we be constantly locking the knees and joints? this always seems uncomfortable and as i am mentioned my joints are aching recently and belive this is due to the yoga.
My last question is about the standing back bend, every time we do this the teachers say "its gonna hurt like hell" and we are encouraged to go back as far as possible. Could this be in anyway dangerous?
All and All, i love the practice and my teachers very experienced and have a lot of knowledge but I am just worried that in the long run bikram might end up hurting my joints. Every bodies body is dif. and I have certainly had my problems in the past.
In one of his interview bikram says his yoga heals all and when he is asked how that is possible he mentions penicillin......which I am allergic to.
Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks! |
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| Ben, I'm very shocked your Bikram teachers couldn't help with better advice than what comes from the Bikram monologue. Yoga is not supposed to hurt. Not knowing your specific problems, I wouldn't give specific advice except that you're wise to be paying attention to your discomfort. Since you're well aware of your afflictions, I would recommend consulting your medical personnel who have treated you in the past. |
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| someguy,
Go slow. Take your time. Yoga is not a race. Work your stamina, but go easy on your body, especially your joints. You are new to this practice and taking a lot of classes. Remember, IF YOU FEEL PAIN, YOU ARE HURTING YOURSELF. Although the Bikram monolog instructions to push yourself are great for those who pamper themselves, it can lead to injury for those who push themselves anyway. Discomfort in the middle of muscle is usually OK. Discomfort in or near a joint is not. Think of this practice as something for the long haul, not just for now and you will go slower and take care of yourself. It will all come in time if you let it. Just don't force the poses and while it is important to listen to the teacher, it is much more important to listen to your body. Listen to it and honor what it is saying. Hope that this helps.
Namaste,
Jim |
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Regular
Posts: 90
| Indeed, attend to the pain.
In locust pose (arms under your torso), you should not be hyperextending. Your arms should be flat against the floor. Try to focus on distributing your weight into your upper arms and shoulders rather than trying to lift with your lower arms.
As for lock the knee joint, I think it's pretty universally understood that 'locking' isn't the best word. Think of firming the join by contracting the thigh muscle. Try to distribute your weight evenly on your foot to avoid resting your leg in a locked position. The locked knee should have all of your muscles contracted to hold the knee in place, not rely on the joint to hold all of the weight.
It's subtle, and you do need a good teacher to help you find the proper alignment through all of the subtlety. Try experimenting with the frequency of your practice (maybe go a little less), try soaking in a hot bath with Epsom salts. Mix it up and do not be afraid to try other types of yoga.
Good luck! |
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Regular
Posts: 90
| jimg - 2009-09-24 3:55 PM
someguy,
Go slow. Take your time. Yoga is not a race. Work your stamina, but go easy on your body, especially your joints. You are new to this practice and taking a lot of classes. Remember, IF YOU FEEL PAIN, YOU ARE HURTING YOURSELF. Although the Bikram monolog instructions to push yourself are great for those who pamper themselves, it can lead to injury for those who push themselves anyway. Discomfort in the middle of muscle is usually OK. Discomfort in or near a joint is not. Think of this practice as something for the long haul, not just for now and you will go slower and take care of yourself. It will all come in time if you let it. Just don't force the poses and while it is important to listen to the teacher, it is much more important to listen to your body. Listen to it and honor what it is saying. Hope that this helps.
Namaste,
Jim Good advice. Yoga is about unifying your body and mind, not about performing asanas as strenuously as you can. |
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| what others have posted is beautiful. i will add a bit, hopefully.
most of this has simply to do with language--how something is communicated, which words are being used, what meaning is behind that for the speaker vs the listener. a lot of this is implied and inferred meaning, not explicit descriptive instruction. bikram isn't the only place where this happens. 
so, i'm going to speak to that.
first, let's talk about the word "hurt" and with it the word "pain." A lot of beginner students tell me that they are "in pain" or "that really hurts." to me, the word "pain" and "hurts" implies injurious action. where as "discomfort" even "extreme discomfort implies a great effort.
for most beginners, every discomfort is pain. for the average person in my experience, they are so unused to discomfort of any kind, that any discomfort equals pain. this leads to what jimg refers to as "pampering oneself." the truth is, so much of our culture here is about avoiding discomfort and pain at any cost. people will take OTC medication at the slightest hint of a headache, or gas, or any other kind of small discomfort (eg, when i sit too long, my knees get stiff. i know people who take pills for that, rather than move!).
so you take this person and they go into a yoga class for the first time. it's hot, the poses are weir and challenging. everyone says to me "i thought yoga was supposed to be easy! I thought it was supposed to be gentle exercise!" well, it is gentle exercise, but that doesn't mean it's easy. and honestly, it doesn't mean that things aren't going to be uncomfortable.
what i try to teach my students early on is the difference between "pain" verses "discomfort" because this will be the key to them knowing whether they are doing the posture properly or injuring themselves. As Carl wrote, if you're feeling the discomfort in the muscle, away from the joints, then you are working within the right "hurt." and if you are feeling it in the joint, or near the bones, you are in the wrong "hurt." the next layer of knowing of this sort comes in understanding the line between muscle discomfort vs muscle pain. you can injure (tear, etc) muscles, too. and when you do, or are about to, you feel PAIN as opposed to feeling DISCOMFORT.
for many people--yogis and non-yogis alike--you learn this fine line (or 'edge' in american yoga) through doing. that is, through an injury. most of us are driven, PITAs and so we end up injured and have to fix it with yoga. But, that brings about the other thing that jim mentioned. . .how this isn'yt really about the postures.
second, in speaking to your teacher, if you feel you aren't communicating effectively or an answer doesn't make sense, ask again or ask for more clarity.
i would say that your teacher is right about the healing process around the elbow joint (or any) when doing yoga. My guess is that, assuming you cannot hyperextend your elbows (and many people can and many people can't), it is likely a tightness in your bicep that is causing the tingling in your lower arm, and the tension around the joint. . .particularly if you're feeling it more toward the bicep itself. you might notice, as you practice it, whether or not you're feeling the primary pulling discomfort actually "in" the elbow or just above and below in the bicep and forearm.
if it isn't in the joint, then what your teacher says is true. the tingling will eventually turn to heat, and then after the heat phase, you'll find the joint will open and you'll have no more of that. I've been through it myself.
though, i admit that, like bruce, it's an unsatisfactory answer to give to a beginner. i personally prefer to teach my students about the joint, watch their process in the posture, and then talk about discsomfort and the healing discomfort process.
now, if you want to do a modified version--which is frowned upon in bikram, that is, this modification is--then just keep your arms by your side, and slowly moving them inward to the right position as you feel comfortable in one version of the modification. eventually, your arms will be under you. and there may still be the tingle-burn process, but at least you have an option for it.
carl dealt with the knee thing. instead of "lock the knee" which means hyperextend in our language, it's lift the thigh and make the joint firm. strong thighs is a good way to "translate" lock the knee.
otherwise, keep going and enjoying yourself. that's most important. it takes a while for the body to adjust to this work. it may involve a good deal of discomfort, even soreness in muscles and around joints, for a while. but, as carl says, taking care of yourself outside of the studio is just as important. drinkw ater, rest, take baths, etc. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | I like how Zoe explained comfort/pain in terms of Yoga. For literal people, the dialogue saying "hurt like hell" causes some trouble. I personally have come to think it becomes a hurdle. When I teach, I refer to the "struggle" and try to articulate briefly what Zoe said, that Yoga is self study and to be aware that there is a difference between discomfort and pain. And it takes a while to recognize the difference.
That said, we know how long you've been practicing Bikram's Yoga. My question is do you have any other experience with Yoga? Or have you played a sport or pursued a form of dance or martial art where you've felt things in your body, simply due to strenuous exercise?
If the answer is no, and even if you have trained in other physical pursuits, I am often amazed at people who jump into Bikrams and start right off going 6 days a week or doing the 30/60 day challenge within the first month or so. My advice is be careful. It's an intense workout. I'd work up to 5-6-7 days a week by maybe just going every other day for a while. Don't feel bad about giving your body a rest. |
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| I think the answer to this and many other questions about pain and discomfort is contained in the instruction to "stay within your breath." I think if more people properly understood this from the beginning, they would have much less trouble with yoga. I can't say what is going on with you, but I see a lot of men in class who look like they are Sylvester Stallone in Rocky, training for the boxing match of their lives. They huff and puff and gasp and groan and whatever is going on in their body, you know it can't be pretty. I think if you remember to keep your breathing even and natural, you will have a hard time hurting yourself.
I occasionally have discomfort in my joints during and after yoga--I don't think it's always bad at all. This has never turned into actual injury. At first I was a bit worried, but two things reassured me. 1) The discomfort never got worse, and usually disappeared with a day or two of rest. 2) I could feel and see improvements in range of motion. The yoga does work on the joints and open them up. It's not always going to be comfortable.
I would say stick with it, stay within your breath, and also take some time off. You aren't supposed to need to take time off from Bikram yoga, but a few days won't hurt your practice, and it does sound like you are overdoing it.
Ferret |
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| Wow eryone thanks for all the replies and encouragement.
DJ Dre-
Yes I did brazillian Jiujitsu for around 4 years as well as filipino stick fighting. As you may or may not know BJJ is somewhat like wrestling except with full body joint locks, hence the problem with my joints (sometimes you don't tap fast enough). Having done these two martial arts I feel relatively fit and quite comfortable with what good and bad pain is in a martial arts setting. Especially because in BJJ you need to figure out when is the last possible moment where you can give up with out getting hurt, in order to increase your chances of escape.
So I do feel I am pretty physically fit and that was why I enjoy Bikram, it's an intense work out.
Having read everyone's posts it may be the way in which I am doing the pose. I have no problem locking out my elbows but most of the weight seems to be concentrated on the elbows instead of, as mentioned, up closer by the shoulders.
I guess the over all response seems to be 'take it slow and listen to your body' certainly wise advice.
I think I will ease up a little bit (in intensity of practice) not in frequency (got to get my fix!).
Following my breathe is good advice, I am not usually huffing and puffing but I am def. not using my breathe to the fullest extent.
The pain is def. in the joints though. I have some soreness in my back but I am not at all worried because I can def. tell this is muscle discomfort. However the elbows and knees seem to def. be inflamed. I think this is due to lack of cartilage. Would Birkams help this? Flex. does not seem to be the issue.
Anyway thanks for all the helpful posts and I am going to try to be more aware of my practice, than hopefully I can more accurately identify the problem and find a solution!
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| Another thing occurred to me which is that the pain and inflammation you're having could be caused by a medical condition unrelated to yoga, like arthritis. It's pretty unusual for someone to injure both knees and both elbows simultaneously, so if the pain is really bothersome, it might be a good idea to check in with your doctor. I have heard good things, though, about the benefits of hot yoga for arthritis and other chronic inflammatory conditions. Good luck!
Ferret |
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| Hmm, I thought I replied to this the other day... must remember about SUBMIT button.
So many things have already been said beautifully (especially by Zoe, thanks Zoe!) so I just want to speak to the posture briefly.
The elbow joints in locust pose really do just "hurt like hell until they don't." It's one of those things. So many of us have really unhealthy elbow joints from all the time we spend with our elbows bent - typing at a computer, driving a car, etc - that restoring the joint's natural mobility can be pretty difficult and uncomfortable. There is a lot to work through. But it DOES work!
Zoe's advice on the pose is also pretty good. Like EVERYTHING in Bikram yoga, all you have to do is take the pose step by step, trying honestly, doing the best you can. So for STEP ONE in your set-up, get your elbows locked, palms flat on the floor, fingers spread, arms by your side. Then for STEP TWO, roll side to side and lift your hips to bring your arms under your body. But don't change your arms. EVENTUALLY you want your pinky fingers to touch side by side, but if that's too agonizing, then just bring your arms as far under your body as you can tolerate. Keep working it day by day, and pretty soon your arms will be all the way under your body. If you avoid the things that hurt, they will never improve. But if you take it a millimeter at a time, eventually you will get there. A point of principle for me is this: There are no "modifications" in Bikram yoga, there is only TRYING THE RIGHT WAY. You can always, always, always try the right way, whatever that means on your body on a given day.
The weight does come into the shoulders eventually, but that is one of the trickier things to master in the series, so give it time.
Finally, with that said: you mention "lack of cartilage" in the joints. Do you actually, for a fact, have damaged cartilage? Because I think that makes a difference in your approach. I'm not an expert on this (I'm not even a teacher yet...) but I know that it's different. If your cartilage is really badly damaged, I think you want to be careful. But if it's arthritis, that's a case where "pain kills the pain," and working through the discomfort can be incredibly healing. Something to look into, maybe.
Edited by thedancingj 2009-09-25 6:23 PM
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| one of my good friends has no meniscus in either knee. he tore both in highschool football, then rehabbed throughout college. found yoga in college (which for us was over 10 yrs ago now), and completely healed his knees.
btw, he still has no meniscus. so, while he has no pain in the joints, no arthritis or other people with an injury the age of his would have, etc--all due to yoga--it's not like he miraculously got that meniscus back, you know?
but, by using the muscles around the joint properly--to support the joint--he is able to lead a full, happy life. he teaches yoga, practices some kind of funky chinese massage technique (and teaches it at a massage school), and there you have it.
both of us ended up in alternative healing modalities. it's pretty wild how that worked out. i've known the guy since i was 10, but around age 20 or so, we lost touch because his girlfriend didn't like him getting emails from me. of course, we lived across the country from each other, but some people are completely irrational. apparently, about 3 years ago, she allowed him to get back into contact with me, and that's when i discovered that he was an MT and yoga teacher. wild. LOL |
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Bikram: awesome but....
