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| Bruce:
The last niyama is devoted to surrender:Isvara pranidhana
Of course, you are free to reject any and/or all of the yoga teachings you want. But this is pretty basic stuff. |
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| Isvara pranidhana is surrendering to the Creator's will, not Bikram's, or Obamas's, or Ahmadinejad's or whoever. |
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Veteran
Posts: 149
 
| My creator (and I use the term 'my' because we all share diff belief systems) did also create the leaders and says yes they do need to be honored. However the creator ALSO knows how we are all human (including the leaders) and that they can and will fall and make mistakes. Telling us to follow IF what they are saying is sound and in the creators direction of values ect. |
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| Duffy Pratt - 2009-06-28 9:51 PM
Then we take your idea that perception requires a perceiver and a thing perceived. Well the perceiver can't perceive itself. Therefore, the self doesn't exist.
The perceiver can and does perceive itself!! That perception is called consciousness.
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| CarsonZi - 2009-06-29 7:37 AM
Surrendering to the Will of the Creator will make everything a whole lot simpler. I can guarantee it. Love,
Carson 
How do you know the "Will of the Creator"? Isn't that simply following your ego or the ego of another?
The concepts of "will" and "creator" are both constructs of the mind; illusions, beliefs. They are words in your head, not reality. They are a diversion from reality, not a path to it.
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| What does "surrender" mean in the presence of cruelty? |
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| "The perceiver can and does perceive itself!! That perception is called consciousness. "
Before you objected to surrendering to what is because you are a part of what is. You insisted that perception required two things, a perceiver and a thing perceived. Now you say that perception doesn't require two things, because the perceiver can perceive itself. These statements are logically inconsistent.
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| CarsonZi - 2009-06-29 9:43 AM
I used to believe I had control over things in my life. I no longer believe that. Personal experience has shown me that control is a complete illusion. I have Surrendered to a Higher Power, a Higher Self, so that I may be a vessel, and outlet for Divine Love. Love,
Carson
Hi Carson,
I think that the old:
"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."
applies here.
Although I do not believe in God, I do agree with the sentiment.
You do have control over some things and absolutely no control over others. You can control your breath. You can indirectly control your blood pressure. You cannot control your pancreas. Many aspects of human existence are "hard wired" and many are self directed. Many external circumstances are outside our control and many are self induced. Life is very complex. It may make it easier to view it simply, but that does not change the complexity. Everything in life requires balance to function successfully (homeostasis). There is a balance between control and surrender that is necessary, just like the balance between critical thinking and intuition, activity and rest, sympathetic and para-sympathetic. Extremes are violent and lead to dis-ease. Balance is peace. Balance is ease.
Namaste,
Jim
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| Duffy Pratt - 2009-06-29 9:54 AM
"The perceiver can and does perceive itself!! That perception is called consciousness. "
Before you objected to surrendering to what is because you are a part of what is. You insisted that perception required two things, a perceiver and a thing perceived. Now you say that perception doesn't require two things, because the perceiver can perceive itself. These statements are logically inconsistent.
You cannot surrender to yourself. Surrender is giving up control and you cannot give up control to yourself because you are then not actually giving up control. Perception still requires a perceiver and a thing perceived. The fact that you are aware of yourself as existing is proof that you can be both perceiver and perceived.
Edited by jimg 2009-06-29 1:29 PM
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| On a completely different note, Carson, I'm heading to Calgary this week...can you recommend a studio where I can drop in to practice? Thanks.
Re the discussion: yes, there are things we have no choice but to surrender to. But by witnessing a cruel act and choosing to simply acknowledge/surrender to it, we are culpable.
Didn't we learn from the event of WWII and the Holocaust that bad things happen when 'good' people do nothing? Should the people of Iran simply have allowed the election results to go unchallenged, surrendered to those results? People who are enslaved or wanting human rights usually fail to see the same virtues in surrender. You can take the argument to a logical conclusion that murder is not bad in and of itself, it is only our imposed perception of it as wrong that renders it so. That's a frightening and dangerous proposition. |
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| jimg - 2009-06-28 6:27 PM
Ram - 2009-06-27 2:51 PM
jimg - 2009-06-17 1:36 PM
Following anything or anyone (including your own beliefs from the past) without critical thinking leads only to mindless repetition. Critical thinking leads to learning, which leads to understanding, which leads to transformation.
You and I have in the past disagree on this but I am putting it out there for the benefit of others.
Thinking is vastly overrated and unecessary. Instead silence and developing your intuitive abilities through practises of meditation is vastly superior to the western mode of think think think.
Thinking is often overrated, but none the less necessary. Just because you think critically does not mean that you need to forego silence and developing your intuitive abilities any more than just because you are working on flexibility you need to forego strength. It is a question of balance between the two. Each, by itself is worthless. A balance between them is priceless.
You can choose to take your approach. Like you say it is not rejecting silence or intuition. It sounds like a better way to approach thinking.
but what you are not willing to consider is living thought free. You can live thought free. And believe it or not function at a much higer level. Most of the problems in life are the result of thinking.
Living thought free is not something you can just desire and have it happen. Our minds are powerful and most people are slaves to their thoughts. But with practise (medidation) one can live in a thought free state. |
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| joysweat - 2009-06-29 12:46 PM
What does "surrender" mean in the presence of cruelty?
As with any spiritual practise their is a practical application to it. Nobody should ever "surrender" to being beaten up or abused.
Surrender from a spiritual perspective is a word that has many layers to it. Depending on your degree of development it means something different to everyone.
From my perspective surrender means to give in to your higher self vs. your ego/mind. The senses and ego tell you to do one thing and it may differ from what your higher consciousness may tell you is a better action. some people live purely on this physical plane on auto pilot. Others live more consciously surrendering from their implusive behavours to using their inner guidance. You can call it God, intuition, consciousness, ki, chi, kundalini, or the holy spirit. |
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| jimg - 2009-06-29 1:24 PM
You cannot surrender to yourself. Surrender is giving up control and you cannot give up control to yourself because you are then not actually giving up control. Perception still requires a perceiver and a thing perceived. The fact that you are aware of yourself as existing is proof that you can be both perceiver and perceived.
who is aware? Who was it that reported to you your dreams when you woke up?
There is something beyond both the perciever and percieved.
Who/What is that? Until you actually experience it is either a dry belief or a reason you are a non-believer. Belief by itself is pure bullshit. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | Critical thinking is self-guided, self-disciplined thinking which attempts to reason at the highest level of quality in a fair-minded way. People who think critically consistently attempt to live rationally, reasonably, empathically.
What too often shows up here, in the Bikram forum, is not "self-guided" critical thinking. It is simply someone offering their criticism of this series and who originated it, with very little knowledge of how each person practices it. The goal of Yoga, and in most eastern philosophy isn't critical thinking. It is to become the observer. The observer isn't critical of self, much less of other people. Critical thinking is the runaway muck of western intellect.
Bring it on dammit! If the battle is not difficult, it's not worthy.
I've tried to convey this idea before Bruce... I don't want to do battle here, in this forum, with other regarding my practice. You are, of course, free to fight your battles on your mat or where ever else you may want to have a fight. But I suggest that the willingness to fight is not enlightenment.
The surrender Carson speaks of is evident in much of Buddhism. The Sutras define many states of perception. Eckhart Tolle combines/paraphrases many of these ideas and notions quite well. What Tolle explains well is that we are not our mind. Our mind exists, so does the ego. A refined mind allows our true self to become the observer, outside of emotional reaction and outside of intellectual processes. Only then can we have "correct" perception.
Isvara pranidhana is surrendering to the Creator's will, not Bikram's, or Obamas's, or Ahmadinejad's or whoever.
And the ax grinds on. I do not surrender to Bikram, and to suggest that anyone does is to suggest something one simply cannot know about another. I do not debate that ishvara can be translated as god or creator. But it doesn't have to be, it's not the only translation.
The Shambala Press translation (by Chip Hartranft) defines ishvara as 1. the power of pure awareness, 2. the ideal of pure awareness and only at the third definition does it say, "the lord".
Ishvara-pranidhana is surrender to pure awareness or dedication to pure awareness and thirdly, surrender to the lord.
Even though I identify as agnostic, and one who has moved steadfastly away from christianity, the idea of joining god or becoming one with god makes sense via the notion of pure awareness. You do not so much as surrender to god, but you surrender to what is, to the Now or the moment. And in being able to do that, then you know god.
Perhaps I should start a new thread entitled "active surrender" so that this thread is not hijacked so badly.....either way I will answer you here for now....
Carson, this forum gets hijacked all the time, often by people who would reduce another's practice to "drinking the kool aid". I'm glad you're here. Thanks.
Thankyou, Amy. |
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| Dr Dre wrote: "The goal of Yoga, and in most eastern philosophy isn't critical thinking. It is to become the observer. The observer isn't critical of self, much less of other people. Critical thinking is the runaway muck of western intellect."
Runaway muck? Good grief...of what good is an impotent observer other than a selfish ego-driven desire to put oneself above the the fray. Perhaps simply a hallow feeling of enlightenment.
"But I suggest that the willingness to fight is not enlightenment"
We may have to write a new plot to the Bhagavad Gita where Arjuna bravely runs away. If we go back to the original intent by the original poster, joysweat, it's basically sort out your own situation and act accordingly--if it's surrender fine, if it's don't take $hit, that's fine too. |
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| Bruce - 2009-06-29 7:33 PM
Runaway muck? Good grief...of what good is an impotent observer other than a selfish ego-driven desire to put oneself above the the fray. Perhaps simply a hallow feeling of enlightenment.
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What makes you think the observer is "impotent" and "above the fray". Do you subscibe to the theory of the enlightened one being some syrupy yoga character?
are you scared that you wont be "warrior bruce" anymore?
Dude you can never "escape the fray". And I would think your desire to become enlightened has EVERYTHING to do with no longer wanting to be a slave to your ego/mind. |
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| Gibberish Ram. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | ::sighs:: What can one say, Ram? As the observer in me develops, I am anything but impotent. I am wiser and chose better when to act. I am not above the fray, it simply becomes less and less relevant to my happiness. |
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| Thanks so much for the attempt to clarify things for me Carson--how altruistic of you. |
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| Carson my comment certainly was meant to be sarcastic but your holier than thou attitude actually convinced you I was being sincere and your unflappable ego daned to spare me pain by gracing me with a "benefit of the doubt."
Seriously mate, go about your journey and be happy and fullfilled--be there for your Creator and yourself.
Joysweat wrote of her situation and I maintain simply that one must sort out his/her own situation and act accordingly--intuition is not a stand alone entity--it is forged on learned experiences and when it comes to the self, nobody else is going to act for the individual and to accept what others have created when that outcome is unsatisfactory is, in my opinion, foolish. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | Criticism and sarcasm. Wonderful. Well, you can't say you didn't try, Carson.
joysweat, you asked: What does "surrender" mean in the presence of cruelty?
I've been reading The Power of Now. I recently read where Tolle dealt with the concept of accepting what is in terms of wrongs humankind has done to one another. He suggests it's not so much that you accept the wrong but that you view it in terms of it happening to the body. We are not our body or our mind. If we accept or surrender to what is, we are able to not let it touch or affect that what is our true self.
I thumbed through the Tao Te Ching and found this an interesting parallel:
Thirteen
Accept disgrace willingly.
Accept misfortune as the human condition.
What do you mean by "Accept disgrace willingly"?
Accept being unimportant.
Do not be concerned with loss or gain.
This is called "accepting disgrace willingly."
What do you mean by "Accept misfortune as the human condition"?
Misfortune comes from having a body.
Without a body, how could there be misfortune?
Surrender yourself humbly; then you can be trusted to care for all things.
Love the world as your own self; then you can truly care for all things. |
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Regular
Posts: 66
| The above thread is exactly why i go to bikram yoga. I dont need to even think of any of that. Just get a good workout  |
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Regular
Posts: 69
| Wei Wu Wei says "Why are you unhappy? Because 99.9 per cent of everything you think, and of everything you do, is for yourself--and there isn't one." 'You' don't really exist. It's just an illusion - a trick of the ego that 'you' are separate from everything. So well meaning advice like 'Don't take any crap from anyone' only works if one believes they are separate from the crap giver when in reality 'they' are both the crap giver and receiver as well as the monkey at the zoo and the flower in the meadow next to the brook down at the farm ('You" are even the bead of sweat falling off the super model in front of you in class! - and that fat guys enormous toenail for that matter). The mind/ego, like Iago whispering in your ear, tells you that 'You' are separate - to not take any crap! It will fight like hell to maintain that illusion because doing so keeps it in charge.
'We'/'You' are one consciousness not separate 'I's. 'Surrender' is surrendering to that collective consciousness. So in the presence of cruelty 'you' are the cruelty - the giver and receiver of it - surrender to that. Through this surrrender one can hopefully tap into the vast intelligence of that collective consciousness (some call that God). That intelligence that is far superior to our ego/minds. It makes the planets go around suns, flowers bloom and our bodies function etc.
Hatha yoga/meditation is a good way to get there.
That's just how 'I' see it!!!
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| "You" are both a separate organism and a part of humanity or society, which is part of the planet, which is part of the universe. It is not one or the other, but both. "You" as a separate organism has a mind, a body, an ego, a distinct life etc. It developed from two cells into a unique life form, grew and experienced things, will die, lose its separateness and be absorbed by the greater. Your mind/body is a distinct, separate organism that is very similar to (but not identical to) the minds/bodies of all the other people for the past million years. You are separate, you have different cells, different genes, different stored memories etc. It is not an illusion. You are a unique person, just like everybody else.
Consciousness is also separate and communal at the same time. When you are in deep sleep, unconscious or die, your consciousness ceases. Your consciousness is a separate biochemical reaction that is going on. It is also the same biochemical reaction that is going on in everyone else who is conscious. We have separate individual consciousness, family or group consciousness, cultural consciousness etc all happening at the same time without any division.
Edited by jimg 2009-07-01 1:28 PM
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| Jimg:
Maybe consciousness is a biochemical reaction. Maybe not. Right now, I think most people believe it is so because they've been told that we think with our brains. And, of course, we now lack a better explanation. But no-one has yet isolated any kind of "chemical consciousness". It's an area about which we are very, very ignorant.
Duffy |
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Drink your Bikram Kool-aid
