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| It is my understanding that Bikram Choudhury has been teaching this yoga sequence in a heated room since 1978. So where are all of the people that have been seriously injured or killed doing Bikram yoga in the past thirty years? I have attempted to research this question, to find out what the risks of Bikram yoga are. All I could find were minor injuries and strains, usually from people pushing too hard into the asanas, or doing them incorrectly. In contrast, check out this quote from a Chicago Sun Times article: "While no one keeps exact count, the USA Track and Field Road Running Information Center estimates there are four to six marathon deaths a year. Nationwide, about 425,000 people ran in 300 marathons last year."
I think that those who are warning about the theoretical dangers of Bikram Yoga (still theoretical after thirty years) ought to go immediately to runnersworld.com and alert people there to the serious dangers of running a marathon! After all, the human body was never meant to run twenty-six miles at once. This is very unnatural and can lead to DEATH!
When you are done warning the runners, I believe you need to stop by the forums for the sky divers. And you'll of course need to educate the gymnasts and the ballet dancers about injuries to their joints. And please don't forget to share your wisdom with the equestrians--they are at risk for spinal injuries! Do visit the swimming forums and remind the swimmers that they can't breathe under water, and also that they will most likely die of hypothermia if they swim in cold water.
I am certain you are very diligent in warning people about actual dangers, before you worry about theoretical dangers, right?
Ferret
PS My blood pressure drops during Bikram yoga, and I have been told by doctors that this warmth causes blood vessels to dilate, which results in a drop in pressure. Not a problem for most people, but if you run low anyway, it's a bit of a challenge. This is also the reason you don't want to stand up suddenly after sitting in a hot tub or sauna. I think Bikram is getting a bad rap about raising blood pressures. I don't see that documented anywhere. Raising heart rates...sure. What's wrong with that?
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| YWD
The first sentence of your link states "Patanjali, the founder of yoga had designed the science of yoga about 2500 years ago." Patanjali was the compiler of an oral tradition and not the founder or designer of yoga. Patanjali's "style" of yoga is often referred to as "Raja Yoga" and is only one of many traditions of yoga. He almost certainly was not referring to active poses in either a hot or cool environment, but rather sitting comfortably so that one could meditate. There are many possibilities, all of which are yoga. If you think that there is some "true" yoga and all the rest is wrong or inferior, you are probably caught up in dogma and not open to self discovery.
It makes more sense to me to focus on what is working for you right now than to generalize about what is correct for other people who are physically, chronologically and mentally in other places. If "hot" yoga is working for you, do it. If not, do another style.
Namaste,
Jim |
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| I actually kind of agree that they way most hot yoga classes are taught nowadays can be dangerous. In my 10 years of teaching hot yoga, I have seen the following injuries as a direct result of regular Bikram practice.
1. Cervical and Lumbar spine injuries (bulging disks, hernaited disks, etc...)
2. MAJOR knee injuries, mostly ACL and meniscus tears
3. Dehydration, Heat stroke and heat exhastion.
4. In 2 cases, death. Please don't ask where, I really don't feel like getting sued. But it was a rather famous studio in the bay area.
People DO get hurt alot in Bikram. I personally feel that it is how they are trained. Push, push, till you break. That's not yoga. However, it is changing. I know that Bikram is really not happy with the quality of the new teachers coming out of training and IS starting takes steps to fix quality issues.
Dehydration and the locking of the knee joint I feel is the most common way people get hurt in Bikram.
Headquarters I have heard is even cracking down on the heat. Too many studios are heating the rooms up to over 120 degree and that is really just dangerous.
Now to be fair, in my 10 years of teaching I have seen the following injuries as a direct result of other forms of yoga (flow, ashtanga, iyengar):
1. Cervical and Lumbar spine injuries (bulging disks, hernaited disks, etc...)
2. MAJOR knee injuries, mostly ACL and meniscus tears
3. Sciatca
4. Wrist injuries
5. Rotator cuff injuries
6. Hernia
7. Broken nose.
So as you can see Bikram is not the only yoga people get hurt in. Anytime you have people being physical you run the risk of injury. This a YOGA community issue, not a Bikram issue. |
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Member
Posts: 42
| The idea of what is yoga and what is yoga is pretty nutty. Who are we to decide what yoga is and isn't? Sure we love yoga, maybe we've done yoga for a long time, even read a lot about it, maybe we teach it, but how do we get to decide what yoga is?
Patanjali states that t be yoga it takes three things, holding the posture still, breathing normally, and then resting after the posture?
Does that mean most "yoga" classes aren't yoga if they don't follow that recipe?
What if we let it all be yoga? The grunting guy in the corner the woman who is struggling but smiling, the person who can't breather through their nose to save their life, the young girl who falls out of every posture, the guy who says he hates it but comes every day? Isn't there room for everyone? Or do only the people who live up to your rules get to say it's yoga?
I've done yoga for years, I've many tried different types, I like Bikram yoga, I like the mix of physical work and mental work I like the fact that I find it amazingly spiritual because that's where my head goes to when I'm working in that way, instead of being told that it's spiritual because there is someone chanting something I don't understand after class, or there is a table with a mixture of religious iconography in the corner.
Wouldn't it be great if we all took care of ourselves We valued what we valued, and we let people enjoy what they enjoy?
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| Yogabrian if you know of two people who have died directly as a result of bikram yoga, then that is of great concern. However, if you are unable to share the details, then it is merely a rumor, and would not help anyone who might also be at risk. In the case of marathons, which I cited above, I was being facetious. Most runners are very sensitive about the publicity such deaths receive and resulting criticism of the sport, because most often it is a hidden heart defect that no one could have done anything about. It is too bad that the studio in question has not been more open about the incidents. If they were a result of the yoga, then people should know exactly what happened and why so they can protect themselves. And if it were a result of a heart defect or other underlying condition, then that information would help put it in perspective. I think there would be great potential for a law suit if someone died and it could be proved to be a direct result of the yoga, because unlike running, bikram yoga is strongly associated with an individual, is copyrighted by that person, and he seems to be quite wealthy.
Dehydration and overheating are major problems in many sports. One of the worst things that can happen is a misunderstanding of the symptoms of overheating and/or electrolyte imbalance, which the athlete then self-treats with more and more and more water, making the problem worse. I have been told to hydrate hydrate hydrate, but that will not help with a case of overheating. Someone who is overheated must get out of the room, and that is strongly discouraged in general.
I think it must be accepted that all sports have risk of injury. Yoga is so low on that scale (and I have been involved in many risky sports, including horse riding), that it is rather laughable to me that people are getting so excited about injuries. They don't seem terribly common. It would be surprising if there were none. (And again, people who are out of shape and don't exercise at all also suffer many of these injuries, especially the back injuries.)
I agree 120 degrees for a studio is just insane. I would not practice in such a studio. The studio I use runs 100 to 105. The hottest I've seen is 106. This I can buy because it is the normal daytime temperature in many parts of the world. But unless you live in Death Valley, 120 is in no way "normal."
Ferret |
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| Ferret has a really good point that EVERYTHING has a risk of injury, including stupid things like typing at a computer or sitting in your car with poor posture. I'd guess that more people have back injuries for LACK of yoga than from yoga.
Brian, I've heard a similar story, in similarly vague terms. I'm not going to say "oh no, that never happened" because
for all I know, maybe it did. Which is horrible and tragic and should never have happened, and I have to assume that there was Something Very Wrong in that situation, either in the way the studio was being run, in the student's health, or most likely both.
I've practiced at plenty of fairly "hard-core" studios, but I've NEVER been in a class situation where I can imagine anything so drastic happening. It just Would Not Happen. In Boston the studios were super hot and the instructors were pretty serious about people staying in the room, BUT in the few cases when people really did get dizzy and close to passing out, somebody would take them out into the hall, give them some coconut water, talk to them, and take care of them until they felt normal again. (I did "hallway duty" a couple of times, and both times the fainting spells turned out to be the result of somebody who had either eaten a big meal immediately before class or had come to class already dehydrated.) And when I've practiced with Bikram in LA, I've seen him TELL people to leave the room if they weren't looking too good - "Boss, go outside in hallway for 10 seconds, drink some Coke, then come back in." From what I hear, even the teacher training room is a bit more temperate this year than it has been in the past.
My point is that if Bikram yoga is taught THE RIGHT WAY, i.e. the way that Bikram teaches it, there should not be any danger at all. But I do realize that with the number of studios in operation, and the number of studio owners who have their own ideas about how to teach yoga, quality control is always going to be an issue. So I like Carson's advice: USE YOUR HEAD! If a studio is really too hot for YOUR BODY, just don't go there.
Finally...
What if we let it all be yoga? The grunting guy in the corner the woman who is struggling but smiling, the person who can't breather through their nose to save their life, the young girl who falls out of every posture, the guy who says he hates it but comes every day? Isn't there room for everyone?
Yes, yes, and YES. Amen to that. It is all yoga and there is room for everyone.
J |
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| You are the captain of your ship and master of your fate--take information concerning yoga and adapt it to your particular needs--that is YOUR truth. Be it Bikram, Iyengar, Billy Graham, Obama, or the Pope,--there is no human spouting that should not be looked at without critical thinking. Personally, I teach that if it hurts, don't do it. I learned that from experience and feel it's my duty as a teacher to pass that along. Unfortunately I can't slap sense into those who ignore the advice. |
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| Ferret,
It is not a rumor, it is true. I just don't to get sued. I live in the sue me state. I do believe that the families tried to sue the studio, but the have very good release form. Both did have existing heart condition, but the dehydration is what pushed them over the egde.
I agree with thedancingj, when Bikram is taught correctly, it is in my opinion one of the safest form of yoga out there.
Monkeypicked,
Who am I to decide what is yoga or not. I am not deciding for anybody. There are consistent things about Hatha Yoga that go across the board. All lineages agree. Pushing yourself until you body is broken is not how to practice Hatha Yoga properly. Grunting and groaning is fine, it happens often in my classes. However, once you go to the point of injury, you are no longer doing Hatha Yoga. The goal of Hatha yoga, especially in the Ghosh lineage is build radiant health, not an injured broken body.
If you doubt my words, call Bikram and ask him what he thinks about it. |
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| Brian, I'm pretty sure monkeypicked was agreeing with you there, not going after you. C'mon, nobody get defensive, we are doing sooooo well at having a real civil conversation on here this time!! ;-) |
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| Yogabrian--just to clarify, when I say that the incident you refer to is a rumor, I am not saying it is untrue. I am saying there is no way to confirm it, so please don't take it as criticism. From your point of view, you have had it from reliable sources, but for me it is just something I read somewhere on the internet. :-) I am very glad you shared the story, and definitely will remember it. I am assuming it's true, and I am shocked and saddened to hear of it.
What is interesting is that in 5-6 weeks of practicing 3-5 times/week, I have never seen an instructor suggest to anyone to leave the room, never seen them escort anyone out, in fact I've never seen anyone leave the room for a break. I have only noticed people leaving early twice. Once, the instructor quickly explained that that person had a prior obligation and had already informed her she would be leaving early. Another time, there was no explanation, and the instructor responded quite negatively. I think he was trying to be jokey, though, though it came off a little harsh. This discussion has been informative to me. There have been a couple of times, in retrospect, that I've been overheated and probably should have left the room, but I didn't want to be asked about it, and each time I was stuck in the relative front and center of the room so could not leave discreetly. (I seem never to arrive early enough to get a spot at the back of the room, where I probably should be as a newbie who gets dizzy a lot.) There have been some days where I've come out of the hot room and collapsed, unable to shower and change until I had cooled off. This happened yesterday, and it was not because I was dehydrated, but because as it turned out, I was coming down with a stomach bug and was just not at my best. One reason I'm reluctant to leave is that I actually don't like to draw attention to myself, so even if no one said anything at all, it would be hard for me to get up and walk out, which is why I think it might be a good idea if instructors were to be alert and tell people to leave if they are starting to look really bad.
Ferret |
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Regular
Posts: 90
| Ferret, it sounds like you may be best served by arriving a little earlier and setting up in a cooler part of the room and to the side a little. I have found that being in the middle of a full class can be the hottest place in the room. I hope you can try a few different permutations and find what works for you.
As for defining yoga, I think that's a bit of a waste of time, and seems contrary to everything I have learned in my practice. I trust myself and am honest with myself, so I will determine for myself what does and does not work for me physically, intellectually and spiritually. I encourage all people to do the same. |
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Veteran
Posts: 149
| I only had to leave ONCE in my year of 6x week w/ a few months of lesser (3x week) practice...... I HAD to pee LOL
I left during standing to floor transition dead body and though I had no choice it was awful. I found the temp change and the other factors made me feel off. I think they don't do this (unless they see real danger, which I have seen once and yes they did tend to that person) because just taking a knee and recouping would be better served. I'm not meaning in your practice either but less of a shock to your system to just rest IN the heat and regroup. My two cents  |
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| Agreed, Amy, leaving the room REALLY is an absolute LAST resort for these extreme circumstances that we're discussing (like if you are going to literally pass out or die). Passing out or dying is not supposed to be part of the practice (sorry if that is kind of flippant...), but feeling really really hot often IS a normal part of class. Usually the best thing to do, under normal circumstances, is to recuperate in the room, on your mat. This will, as you say, serve you much better in the long run. Take a sip of water, kneel down, lie down, catch your breath, but stay in the room. Including final savasana, by the way. If I follow the instinct to RACE out of the room after a hot class, I get a wicked head rush and can't do anything. It's a normal response to the abrupt temperature change. If I stay on my mat for a few minutes until all systems return to normal, I have no problems when I get up to leave.
P.S. I think I had a dream about this thread last night. Yes, I am that weird. |
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Veteran
Posts: 149
| I HAVE DREAMS ABOUT MY STUDIO ALL THE TIME LOL |
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| It's always good to examine viewpoints to see if their is any validity for you in them. I have been practising Bikram three times a week for two years. And yes I notice this blind infatuation with the Bikrma philosophy. It's kinda laughable, but these same people have that tendency no matter what they are participating in.
I do believe Birkram could be dangerous with the heat, many football players have died working out in excess heat. I dont like the teachers be so strong about the newcomers 'staying in the class". I think that's just wrong and encourages that machoism that is prevelant in Bikram. Push push push is the same as people who believe we always need to improve improve improve. I just do my own thing in class going as far as it benefits my body. I have found it to be actually quite healing. I have an auto immune spinal arthritis, my spine wants to calcify on itself. Since being diagnosed 15 years ago Bikram has been the most effective yoga, and I have tried most of them. The reason is emphasis on the spine and doing the same postures as being the most important reasons.
As for Bikram not being "spiritual" like some yogas well that is simply a person who is misinformed. Everything in life can be spiritual or not spiritual it's how you approach it. Bikram actually can be more meditative then most yoga's because you know the poses already, familiarity helps you stay "in the zone". I can verify this because I have had a meditative practise for 20 years. |
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Regular
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| "To my understanding Yoga was invented to clean the mind and body so that we can experience the higher consciousness and I do not feel that Hot yoga leads to that path. "
Web - When you research it further, you will discover that Bikram cleanses the mind and body and sends you on a rocket ship towards higher consciousness.
As for the deaths - if any one knows of deaths happening in Bikram studios that are being covered up - with the threat of lawsuits for exposing them etc. - you may want to contact a major news agency and provide them with the details. Major news shows live to expose such atrocities.
My guess is they will find that there's not a story there. |
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| thedancingj
u are so right.....when people talk about Bikram the praniyama breathing isn't always the first thing they mention - but it is such a sensible approach to warming the body for a 90 min session - no shock 2 the system, like jumping into a cold swimming pool would be, etc.
also, the owner of my studio was doing Bikram the day b4 she gave birth - her child is healthy and happy and she gave birth 2 another 1 yr later
in fact, many people @ our studio r getting pregnant - look out!
T. |
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| can someone tell me (sorry for all the questions) if the cardiovascular benefit of having the raised heart rate in Bikram, is the same as raising your heart rate with say, gym work, running etc? |
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| Whenever people ask me about the dangers of doing yoga in the heat, I like to remind them that yoga recently came to the rest of the world from a little hotbox called INDIA!!!! |
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| I don't throw that analogy out--too many negative things about India come screaming back. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | 4theyoga - 2009-08-21 6:41 PM
Whenever people ask me about the dangers of doing yoga in the heat, I like to remind them that yoga recently came to the rest of the world from a little hotbox called INDIA!!!!
That has NOTHING to do with Bikram's analogy and reasoning of doing yoga in a hot room. Please...get real! |
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| Yeah, that's not such a good argument. How about one from this week's New York Times health section instead?
What these recent studies, including the one from Finland, share is the suggestion that, in order to use exercise to reduce the risk of cancer, you must make yourself sweat.
Full article is here: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/18/phys-ed-does-exercise-reduce-your-cancer-risk/?em
It's not a PROOF (tho I would love to say OMG IT'S ALL TRUE!!), but it sure doesn't hurt our case...
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| This whole thread makes me laugh my piehole off! I mean, come ON! We better tell those Thai boxers that they need to exercise in an air-conditioned facility! Don't run in the summer -- it's HOT! Better tell those Kenyan marathoners to STOP RIGHT AWAY. My GOD we best tell the troops not to do their jobs in any country near the equator or at high altitudes!
My goodness, people! Humans are totally resilient. You need to listen to yourself and to have some freaking common sense! Read up on exercising in hot weather for crying out loud! Use electrolyte replacement. Listen to your body! Drink water! If you have pre-existing conditions, GET A FREAKING CHECKUP before you do ANY exercise!
Suck it up, buttercup -- maybe if you push your limits, you might actually surprise yourself...
Freia |
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| Things have changed quite a bit on this front. When I was growing up, I went to basketball camp for several summers. It was outside, on blacktop. In August, the heat in the shade might have been 90-95 degrees. In the sun, on the asphalt, probably a good deal higher.
But here's what people "knew" then: Drinking water was discouraged and sometimes forbidden. Water in the stomach caused cramps. So it was best if we did without any, for the full morning and then the full afternoon. Instead, they fed us salt tablets before we started, and then after lunch. At the time, that thinking was state of the art. I don't think anyone died as a result, but I certainly remember when athletes were supposed to be tough enough not to need water. |
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| I've been practicing Iyengar for two years, and decided, sure I'll try Bikram. Took two classes. Sorry it is NOT yoga! It's a nice ,jock-ish workout, sure,that's about it.
Bikram himself, in my opinion, is nowhere near enlightened, and a selfish , money-making pig the way i see it. Just an opinion.
I"ll stay with BKS Iyengar |
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Hot Yoga Can Be Dangerous!!!!!
