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Veteran
Posts: 258
 
| I have an alignment question about that natural curve of the lower part of our spine, the lower back curve:
Do all teachers agree that we should be trying to minimize it by tucking in/down the tailbone ? And that the lower small-ribs should not be jutting out in the front ?
Or are there also different opinions on this matter ?
I tried few classes with a new teacher and he insists that I am doing a kind of a lordosis in my lower back and that I should try not to do it. He keeps correcting me on that, but this changes my whole feeling of alignment in tandasana to start with and in all the rest of the standing and the sitting postures.
That ntural curve does indeed look a bit exagerated on my lower back, when I check it in the mirror. But allowing it to happen, makes me feel saver and more lose in the area around the lower back, whereas when I keep thinking of how to minimize that “lordosis”, I somehow get a tension in the diaphragm area (and I think also in the knees).
So I am wondering… Have I been used into doing something wrong, by practising alone for so many years ? Or is it just my body type ?
My other, first and more experienced teacher, to whom I go one month each year, never corrected me on that. I am therefore wondering whether there are different opinions on this matter. |
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Expert Yogi
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| Oh my lordosis! Yes, I know a lot about that and how to correct it. It is my life's work, 
You really are not looking to completely eliminate that curve, as it is a natural shape of the spine and will/should always be there. BUT - you do need to work on lengthening it and not allowing the abdomen to drop forward. Yes, I also find it is tricky to do without feeling some tension in the diaphragm. I am sure it is because I haven't got the actions right yet to achieve the quiet I need in that area.
One thing I find helpful is to do seated poses on a firm surface like a wood block. That way I can find the center of my sitting bones. If I am on the front edge of my sitting bones, I know that I am shortening the lumbar area and need to lengthen to get the alignment right.
It could be that your new teacher is over emphasizing this and you do not need to concentrate on it so much. Hard to say without seeing you. |
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| Kristi,
In tadasana, rotate the top of your pelvis forward, then back and then find the middle "neutral" spot. Pull your lower abdomen in and up, lengthen your entire spine (neck included) push down with your feet as you push up with the top of your head. What is your lower back doing now? Feel it and use your mirror. I think that you need to stop over-thinking about your lower back as that is confusing you. If you focus on what I mentioned above, you should have a neutral spine. Unfortunately, what is habitual feels natural, whether it is good alignment or not. A neutral spine has several curves as your spine works like a giant spring that helps to absorb shock. These curves are part of a "neutral" spine and should not be minimized nor exaggerated. Every body is different, so it is difficult to say whether you need to do something different without actually seeing you and experimenting with several alternatives. At any rate, if you experiment with the above, you may find your "neutral" spine that is central in most of the poses. Remember that your neutral spine may be somewhat different than someone else's, as we are all built somewhat differently. I hope that this helps,
Jim
PS This is really worth spending some time on out of class, as it is primary to your postures as well as your everyday posture and the health of your spine and nervous system. Remember that yoga is self discovery. |
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Veteran
Posts: 258
| >>>>>>>>Hard to say without seeing you<<<<<<<.
How I wish you could indeed see me and be my teacher dear Glenda (tourist). I always find you posts/advices so wise, so clear and helpful. But the whole of Europe and the whole of the Atlantic is between us:-)
>>>>>>>>>One thing I find helpful is to do seated poses on a firm surface like a wood block. That way I can find the center of my sitting bones. If I am on the front edge of my sitting bones, I know that I am shortening the lumbar area and need to lengthen to get the alignment right.<<<<<<<
Very useful! That new teacher did indeed correct also my seated positions. And also my seated forward bends.Like in Upavista Konasana: I have become very flexible with yoga, can now easily reach the floor with my chin and can stay there and rest for a long time, but while doing so, the tail bone pops up a little bit and I find myself sitting on the front front part of the sitting bones. This I am trying to correct.
>>>>>>>>>Yes, I also find it is tricky to do without feeling some tension in the diaphragm. I am sure it is because I haven't got the actions right yet to achieve the quiet I need in that area<<<<<<<<<<.
And even worst with me (worst?...): is that the more I expand my body and allow that curve to “exaggerate”, and allow my lower ribs to come out, the greater the “pleasure” I feel in my stomach and diaphragm area. I get a very pleasant feeling of stretch and freedom there. To tell you the truth… I very much miss this feeling when I follow the instructions of this new teacher.
>>>>>>>>>>In tadasana, rotate the top of your pelvis forward, then back and then find the middle "neutral" spot. Pull your lower abdomen in and up, lengthen your entire spine (neck included) push down with your feet as you push up with the top of your head. What is your lower back doing now? Feel it and use your mirror. I think that you need to stop over-thinking about your lower back as that is confusing you. If you focus on what I mentioned above, you should have a neutral spine
>>>>>>>These curves are part of a "neutral" spine and should not be minimized nor exaggerated<<<<<<<<<
Thanks Jim! Very nice directions for tandasana !
And this is exactly the same opinion/advice that my first teacher (“my real” teacher actually) kept telling us (and repeating every time I insisted in asking the same question): Once you find the alignment and the right “forces” that bring you to a well set tandasana, you don’t need to think about your lumbar curve. It comes to it’s natural-neutral position.
>>>>>>>>>>>Unfortunately, what is habitual feels natural, whether it is good alignment or not<<<<<<<<<<
This is the most difficult part for me. And of course also the most interesting, because as is quoted in your post:
>>>>The purpose of Yoga is awareness
Which brings to my mind another, very BIG question that is often bothering me. Has to do with the great dilemma : should I precisely and literally follow the alignment-instructions offered to me, or should I just follow (with awareness!) my own alignment “needs” ?
And I am often wondering: what would Mr. Iyengar (whom I very much respect!) answer to this question now in his great maturity period ? Although most people think that he is only concerned about alignment, I think he has been giving great importance, same importance, to both aspects : alignment AND awareness
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| kristi - 2009-05-21 2:04 AM
Which brings to my mind another, very BIG question that is often bothering me. Has to do with the great dilemma : should I precisely and literally follow the alignment-instructions offered to me, or should I just follow (with awareness!) my own alignment “needs” ?
It all depends on the knowledge and experience of your teacher as well as your own knowledge and experience. It also depends on whether your teacher is teaching you personally or teaching some sort of generalized person. Alignment instructions are not necessarily meant to be followed "precisely and literally". More often they are general rules or suggestions to help the individual find their own internal alignment. The instructions are things to experiment with on your path to better alignment and awareness, not absolute laws that fit everyone at all times. Outside feedback is important, but all outside feedback is not valid for you personally at a particular point in time. You want to learn alignment from the inside out, but also need input from outside sources (teachers and mirrors) on the way.
In short, I don't think that there is an adequate answer to your question. Try what your teacher says, but if it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't right for you right now. Talk to your teacher and make sure that you fully understand not just what he is saying, but also what he is meaning and how this applies to the unique person that is you.
If you don't trust your teacher, maybe he isn't the right teacher for you. The most important teacher is the one inside you. If this external teacher is not helping you develop your internal teacher, you maybe need to find a better fit. |
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| Hello Kristi,
All teachers rarely agree. Just as in any occupation there are well trained, committed teachers and there are others who take the teaching of yoga casually and that is reflected in their lack of study, conveyance, understanding, practice, and commitment.
The pose you mention, Tadasana, is a foundational pose for the rest of the standing poses as well as some inversions. It is not possible however to merely assess the students lumbar curve. In order for the pose to have a holistic nature the entire pose must be examined, the vision of appropriate alignment superimposed, and the student guided toward that expression.
Alignment serves two primary functions, the first is anatomical (the gross physical form) and the second is energetic (the flow of life force in the subtle channels known as nadis). Whether the student is being guided by a skilled teacher OR whether that student has , over time, cultivated the wisdom of their own inner teacher, they are still being guided toward the same "place". I believe this answers your second "big" question. If you have a very honed self-awareness, if you can feel the webbing between your toes and the muscles between your ribs, if you move the breath consistently and do so only in the home of the breath (lungs) then you might be well advised to follow your alignment needs. If you have not cultivated that level of awareness then it is bst to study with a highly trained,skillful, energetically clean teacher.
Do some students have too much curve in the lumbar spine? Yes. Do some students have too little? Yes. Do we build comfortable patterns in both? Absolutely. Therefore it reasonably follows that an adjustment to a long-held malalignment would feel very odd. Most of us stand with very little structural integrity. This is why there are hundreds of alignments and actions in Tadasana. Whether you've been adjusted or guided appropriately I could not say.
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Veteran
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| Thank you purna! Very well said.
In my six years of practice there have been and are periods, when I feel that I am in a good “state of awareness” and I trust my inner teacher. It is when the practice is going well. Then there are also other periods that I desperately feel the need of a teacher and have so many questions to ask him. I am very flexible and sometimes I injure myself, not often, but it does happen. Mainly in the lower back. So I am happy that two months ago I finally found a very good, certified Iyengar yoga teacher based here. New perspectives, new asanas, a nice “kick” in my practice. It is only on the aspect of how to deal with the lower back curve that I question his advice. I am trying to explore whether it is just my body type, or whether it is a bad habit I got from my long year alone-home practice, that is sometimes injuring my lower back. This teacher is also very concerned with that. I trust him and will explore it further with him and with my own awareness helping each other.
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| That exploration, along with discovery and surrender is the very yoga Sri Aurobindo illuminates in his writings. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Kristi, Your lower back has a natural curve as does your upper spine (neck). Scoliosis is naturally occuring in everyone to different degrees. Do not try to correct yourself as you will damage yourself. First you should ask yourself "what is good posture?" most teachers talk of good posture but have no idea what it is. If you tried to correct the curce in your upper spine so its straight youd be suffering so much. |
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Veteran
Posts: 258
| You are right vibes and thank you for coming back to this question, which I had put a few months ago.
I worked on this in my practice of these last months. And I found out that by trying to eliminate my lower back curve, I had started straining my hip joints and they had started hurting me. So I stopped trying to tuck-down my tailbone and I am only trying just not to tuck it up and exaggerate the natural curve. I am now working in finding and keeping my own “neutral” position of that lower back part of the spine, while doing the asanas.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 436
Location: Washington DC | kristi - 2009-05-19 6:16 AM
I have an alignment question about that natural curve of the lower part of our spine, the lower back curve:
Do all teachers agree that we should be trying to minimize it by tucking in/down the tailbone ? And that the lower small-ribs should not be jutting out in the front ?
Or are there also different opinions on this matter ?..................................
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Namaste Kristi,
You know that our spine has four NATURAL curves . Two are lordotic or Lordosis and two are kyphotic or Kyposis. The cervical and lumbar curves are lordotic. The thoracic and sacral curves are kyphotic. These curves actually help to distribute mechanical stress as the body moves.
Normal Curvature of Cervical Lordosis and Thoracic Kyposis is generally- 20 to 40 degrees
Normal Curvature of Lumber Lordosis is generally a little more then Cervical & Thoracic curve- 40 to 60 degrees, if I am not wrong.
I never thought of minimizing these curves in my 30 years of yoga teaching life or 43 years of yoga sadhana. Is that really important? May be I don’t know! I agree that so many things I don’t know still. However, I don’t want to go against the ‘NATURE’.
Thanks
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Veteran
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| very interesting information and thanks a lot Yogacharyatonmoy !
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 436
Location: Washington DC | Namaste!
You are welcome Kristi and thank you too for your kind appreciation. |
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lower back curve
