|
|
| hello all. i've become very muscular and even smaller chested than when i began the yoga (i practice about 5x/week on average) i'm going to get breast implants- moderate sized- nothing unnaturally large. but i wanted to get any and all feedback from women who have them and practice and especially from anyone who had a practice already going and then got them.
-how has it affected your postures/your musculature or muscle soreness in chest/arms/back?
-how much time did you take off of yoga before going back?
-any particular advice or comments about your experience adjusting to having them and doing the yoga?
thanks for any info!
|
|
| |
|
| There are a few gals that frequent my studio that have breast implants. Some larger than others. I have observed that it has affected the ability to do the back-strengthening poses, especially when the chin has to be down in the mat. (ie. in preparation of cobra, locust, full locust, bow poses)
Some breast implants have raised the upper chest away from mat to the point that the chin cannot touch the mat when laying face down. And this includes implants that are not-gargantuan (I live in Seattle, and huge boobs are more rare than say, los angeles); as I think the women have gotten them in proportion to their bodies.
Sorry, I am not a gal who has implants who responded, but I just wanted to write; since I have seen gals with implants... it's very obvious, and it's hard not to notice... I think it's because of the low body fat content resulting from yoga; and then thus the inability for the body to really "disguise" the fact that there are implants there. |
|
| |
|
| if you stay with it, yoga practice MIGHT get you to a place where you would not feel like you needed or wanted implants. just a thought |
|
| |
|
| I also do not have implants, but have often wondered how women with them do in the spine strengthening series. Actually, I even wonder how the ladies who are naturally well-endowed do it. I'm an A-cup and have always been self-conscious about it, but every time I've got my chin down on the mat I swear I'll NEVER get implants since even my small chest gets in the way. I can't imagine what it'd be like with implants, which are usually much harder. |
|
| |
|
| jaikrsna - 2009-02-24 11:16 AM
if you stay with it, yoga practice MIGHT get you to a place where you would not feel like you needed or wanted implants. just a thought
This sounds to me a bit morally condescending, as if being a more advanced yogi would preclude someone from altering their breast size. Does practicing yoga stop people from getting tattoos or from wearing earrings? Are body piercings un yogic? Are braces on the teeth un yogic? Is makeup un yogic? Is combing your hair un yogic? These are all cultural norms and for some people, enhancing or reducing breast size is an acceptable part of their personal cultural norm. It is not right or wrong, yogic or un yogic.
Is it OK to have a breast reduction if your breasts are so large that doing many of the poses is impossible? Is it OK to reduce breast size but not to enlarge them? Why? Is this a law of the universe, a biological imperative, a cultural prejudice or a matter of personal taste?
People have, from the beginning of time, gone to great lengths to make themselves more attractive to the opposite sex because this is an instinct. What is attractive and what is acceptable is cultural. The desire to be attractive is one of those qualities that we all have in common, whether we want to admit it or not. Being more advanced at yoga should make you more aware of your instinctual qualities, not against them. However you feel about them, they are still there; they are hard wired. There are no right or wrong choices, only aware choices and unaware choices.
Being for or against other people's personal choices or culture is, in my opinion, un yogic.
Another question here is whether being a sexual being is un yogic. No matter what you do, you are a sexual being. Since our sexual instinct is one of our most primal, its suppression usually leads to perversion rather than some kind of holiness or enlightenment. The repression of anything is unhealthy. Repression is both force and violence, whether directed against oneself or others. We need to understand and enjoy our sexuality and use it in a healthy, positive way. After all, it is the way that life is made on this planet.
Edited by jimg 2009-02-24 5:27 PM
|
|
| |
|
| as i hit "submit" i had a moment of doubt about sending my post...i wrote it after a long conversation about cosmetic surgery.
it is of course at the end of the day everyone's right to find their own way and make their own choices about their body and about their life.
what my feeling is, and i did not articulate it very well, is simply that yoga can help us to be content and find satisfaction and meaning in what is, rather than be pushed and pulled by society and our samskaras.
we are not our body, we are not our mind.
i do not have a judegment about someone choosing to undergo surgery tochange their appearance. but, i do stand by the general meaning of my post.
practice CAN help us to accept ourselves as we are, and to make changes that are helpful (this means helath, perspective, mental and emotional). yoga is not primarily about developing muscle, losing weight, etc.
that being said, ANYONE can choose whatever surgical procedures that they want. |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
    
| jaikrsna - I got what you were saying and didn't read any judgment into it. I also liked Jim's response, though.
Having grown up in the 60's, the whole topic of the "natural look" which was big back then, has had some serious discussion with my contemporaries. Guys made a big deal out of girls looking natural, but little did they know how much art went into it!   Body decoration has been with us since the dawn of civilization and it takes different forms at different times and places. |
|
| |
|
| seriously, since i've had the kid, i've dyed my hair twice. it's a horror for me. i don't like the idea of it. and yet i've done it twice, you should see my conflict. and, i wear tinted moisturizer on my eyes before i go out. and my eyelashes and eyebrows are dyed too! look, it's madness to me. i look perfectly natural and normal. i don't look like i've done anything at all. but i know i have. it's all fake. i'm a big faker. but, i prefer looking this way to big circles under eyes and funny washed-out colored hair (which is just now returning to normal color at the roots anyhoot), and the eyelashes and eyebrows were tossed in with the hair so i might as well since it was included. you know, save a penny or get your value or whatever.
and you are so right, tourist. i used to be so ticked with guys who would say that they loved the "natural beauty" of my roommate in college who used to spend 2 hrs getting ready in the morning, dyed her hair, wore the most amazing control-style undergarments that you can imagine (i mean, practically contraptions, those undergarments), and so on. yeah, she was "natural." bah! LOL
and here i am, fakey-fakey.
anyway, that's an aside. 
i will now talk about implants. i do not have implants, but i know two gals who do and so i will talk to them too and see what they say.
i can talk to breasts in general, as i currently have large, leaky breasts (i'm breastfeeding).
there are some postures that i cannot do. none of them really in the bikram series per se, but in other sequences, i have a tough time getting my arms around my breasts.
for those who have implants, i assume that they would have a similar problem with similar poses--regardless of the size of the breasts (say a b-c cup which is pretty average for gals around here to get--very natural looking). that is, when i see these two practice, like me and any woman with larger breasts, it's hard to get around.
the surgery times--how long to take a break, etc--will vary and i didn't notice that most had a long term affect on the muscles of the chest, arms, or back. that is, the muscles will strengthen and adjust after a break and with a change in weight/what have you due to the breasts. i don't think it would be anything long term. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 338
| There is so much to say....
1st, yes, having big breast makes the floor series more difficult, but the idea is to do it the best that you can. In that sense, it is fine to try and fail to get your shoulders on the floor.
2nd I did not hear that breast augmentation was for sexual reasons or to be attractive to the opposite sex. It can be for other reasons, or just to look
average. As someone who had very small breasts for many years, there is a
prejudice about having tiny breasts. People call you boyish, or think that you are younger than you are. Also nothing fits right.
3rd, Who says its for the opposite sex
4th, Although anyone can do anything with a good attitude and for awesome reasons, getting your body cut open to change its shape is not comparable to makeup or even tattoos.
I too think that yoga can lead to self-acceptance. It probably can lead to acceptance of a life long desire to look differently that nature made us. It just seems that breast augmentation is costly and somewhat dangerous.
peggy |
|
| |
|
| you know, i've never really noticed my breasts affecting floor series. . .so maybe it's just something that eventually becomes moot as other areas become stronger or more flexible? hmmm. |
|
| |
|
| I'm enjoying this thread for the wrong reasons... |
|
| |
|
| gogirl58 - 2009-02-25 12:02 AM
It {yoga} probably can lead to acceptance of a life long desire to look differently that nature made us.
Nature made us nude, with hair growing in all sorts of places, without holes in our ears (or other parts), without tattoos, makeup, and in some cases with deformities, both external and internal and in function as well as form.
If you have a tumor, do you keep it because nature gave it to you? If you are diabetic, do you not take insulin? If you have a huge over-bite, do you not get braces? What about a cleft pallet? Where do you draw the line? Why do you draw that line for others and not just yourself?
Self acceptance also means accepting your desire to look differently (if you have that desire), because that desire is part of the you that you seek to accept.
|
|
| |
|
| So, what you are considering doing is a very personal choice and I agree that no one should judge you. With that said, I will tell you that I had implants and after two year had them removed because I did feel that they negatively impacted my practice and oddly enough, my body image. I also found them uncomfortable and bigger than I had anticipated.
So why did I do it in the first place, well my chest had become smaller and what I felt at the time, less than attractive after childbirth and breast feeding and I was 'unhappy' with my physical appearance. I had just began doing yoga when I had them placed and I have to say that for me, it was very difficult to return to my practice post-operatively. I think I just felt that my body had been changed in such an extreme way that I really had a very difficult time adjusting. After they were removed, I felt that I was able to reconnect with my body. I also felt that I was able to let go of the idea of the 'perfect' breast, physique, whatever, and accept how I looked, saggy, small, me.
Now, I do know of people who practice yoga, and at a pretty advanced level, who do have implants and from all external appearances, seem very content. And from my perspective, their practice has been little affected.
So, why do I tell you all this? Well, having been there, I guess I feel the more information you have the better. Many women are very happy, content, and able to practice with their implants. For what is worth, I was not. But my discontent may have had nothing to do with whether or not my breast implants affected yoga. I think what I am trying to say is that I don't think breast implants really have anything to do with what you do on your mat for 1-1 1/2 hour a day. If you want them, you will be able to practice with them, after about 2 months of recovery, and if you like them, you will make your practice work with them. If you don't, they will more than likely become a hinderance.
I hope this helps.
Good luck either way! |
|
| |
|
| Hi Jim,
Just a small point.
As the Buddha said in his second noble truth:
"The cause of suffering is desire"
So is it helpful for anyone to feed a desire?
I would think accepting a desire is not to act on it, but to bring some awareness of it's root cause in order to free you from the desire.
|
|
| |
|
| Phil - 2009-02-25 12:47 PM
Hi Jim,
Just a small point.
As the Buddha said in his second noble truth:
"The cause of suffering is desire"
So is it helpful for anyone to feed a desire?
I would think accepting a desire is not to act on it, but to bring some awareness of it's root cause in order to free you from the desire.
If you want to accept yourself, you must accept yourself as you are, desires and all. Until you do so, you really don't have a starting point for anything else except self delusion. Wanting to be free of desire is also a desire. The cause of suffering is not having desires, it is letting your desires manipulate you unconsciously (lack of awareness or repression), letting your desires control your consciousness (always being focused on what you don't have) and your resulting lack of contentment or santosha (never enjoying the present). Wanting what you don't have (including enlightenment or whatever), instead of enjoying what you do have (including desires), is the cause of suffering.
Joy (enjoying what you do have) is the remedy for desire (grasping after what you don't have).
The problem with continually acting on desire is that once you achieve the desired thing, it is immediately replaced with another one, so you are forever like the proverbial donkey with the carrot. If you are in the present moment, you still have desire, but it is balanced against joy, inner peace and awareness; you are no longer desire's slave. The absence of desire is an imaginary state, a desire, a distraction from what actually is: the present moment.
|
|
| |
|
| "If you want to accept yourself, you must accept yourself as you are, desires and all." Doesn't this suggest an argument against implants?
It's a woman's body, her choice. No question. However, let's be informed about what's underlying the choice.
But first, let me say that while we're all subject to cultural norms of beauty, we're also given the opportunity over time to learn to love, accept and respect our bodies. Something that the Bikram practice shows us is the enormous potential of and appreciation for our natural bodies. I understood that to be what Jaikrsna was referring to in her comment (which I support and appreciate):
"if you stay with it, yoga practice MIGHT get you to a place where you would not feel like you needed or wanted implants. just a thought"
Wearing make-up to enhance one's beauty or donning braces to align one's teeth and create a healthier bite are hardly equivalent to going under the knife to obtain bigger breasts. The risk is simply not comparable.
Breast enhancement is a trend that puts some women at serious risk. Rather than celebrating our own natural physicality, women are capitulating to unhealthy 'cultural norms' about ideal beauty, choosing to define themselves through the external gaze. Yup, it's our own choice, but the choice is made in the context of social pressures that are so pervasive and insidious that it's sometimes hard to distinguish a truly personal choice from one that is derived from subtle, imposed, timely notions of (for this instance) beauty. We can't escape the influence in this media-soaked world where images of women are edited to pore-less 'perfection' and the ideal clothing size is one that the tiniest women will achieve and fake boobs now appear on the wish list of high school girls. So more than ever, we need to make wise, informed choices, and to look at the bigger picture.
It was only a few years ago that women who'd had implants then deemed perfectly safe later had to have them removed, once the implants had torn and the silicone seeped into their muscle tissue. In many cases the gel was embedded in tissue and couldn't be removed, causing pain and reduced range of movement. No doubt current standards are 'much improved', but women are still suffering all kinds of problems from this procedure, not the least of which is diminished sensation in the breast. Today, many women are electing to have their implants removed, as already noted on this forum. For another take on this, visit a site I found (warning - photo alert): http://www.paulkienitz.net/no-implants.html (40 reasons not to get a boob job).
For thousands of years, people have gone to great lengths and risks to beautify themselves. However, because we have a history of engaging in in self-mutilation and that it's culturally accepted doesn't make it good or right. Foot-binding is no longer acceptable; it's now recognized as cruel and barbaric but in its time was the cultural norm. The argument that the desire for beauty has been around for a long time so therefore it's okay to take drastic steps in that direction is neither acceptable nor logical. That we long for beauty is okay, that we go to extremes to achieve it is not. That's where to draw the line.
People are naturally gifted with discretional ability, to make choices and distinguish between what is healthy and unhealthy, just and unjust. jimg's suggests that there are no right or wrong choices, only aware choices and unaware choices. I do hope that Teacher's choice, whatever it is, is made with full awareness and I wish her well. |
|
| |
|
| Hi Jim,
What you just wrote is a explanation of the root of desire and not in conflict with anything I posted.
But it's seems to contradict what you originally posed.
I don't suppose you can really escape desire, maybe just move towards desires that serve you better?
Which bring me back to the OP.
I worry that having an implant, being an operation, will hold some health risk.
It's a long way from simple beauty treatments.
You would have to really feel you need this to go ahead with cosmetic surgery.
I can't say my self what I would do if I started getting man boobs, would I have surgery?
|
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Joysweat - I do think that for many people, the line between enhancing beauty ends pretty abruptly at any form of surgery that is not required for health reasons. But then we have to start drawing the line at "what is health?"
It seems to be quite well accepted that breast reduction surgery can be a matter of health and we seem to go along with that in most cases. What about laser eye surgery? We actually had a little discussion about that the other day after a class. My brother felt it was important to his health and safety because of his job to not have to wear glasses or contacts. What about contacts for that matter? Sticking things in your eyes daily? Eek! But I would do it again in a heartbeat if they found some that worked for my dry eyes because my vision is vastly improved by having a lens close to my eye - nothing to do with vanity.
Anyway, I am not arguing for implants - far from it. One of my major reasons for arguing against them (and reduction surgery) is that they usually severely compromise the woman's ability to breastfeed. So that shows that my personal line is drawn anywhere that impedes normal body functioning. But then again, I do support surgical birth control for men. The line gets hazy for me when we talk about it for women. So it is a big topic!
|
|
| |
|
| it is certainly anyone's right to choose their own way, make their own choices and have whatever modifications to the body they choose.
it is part of practice to recognize our desires, and from a place of awareness act or not act upon them.
good explainations phil & jim |
|
| |
|
| Phil - 2009-02-26 5:20 AM
Hi Jim,
What you just wrote is a explanation of the root of desire and not in conflict with anything I posted.
Hi Phil,
I'm glad that you did not consider my reply in conflict with what you posted as it was not meant that way.
Jim
Just for the record, I am personally against any surgery that is not medically necessary, although if I wore thick glasses, I would consider lasik. I have also chosen to not have tattoos, but have had a vasectomy as I do not want to have more children. That is for me only. Others can make up their own minds about the risks and rewards of what ever they want. Therefore, while not lobbying for breast implants, I cannot lobby against them either. Most importantly, I believe that such decisions are not moral decisions, are not right or wrong.
I find that too often "yoga people" (myself included) start taking a moral tone about their own personal preferences. Doing a couple of stretches, breathing and adding the odd meditation session does not make one morally superior. Adding an ancient Indian text to the mixture does not make one morally superior either any more than being a conservative, right-wing Christian does. With any luck, instead of making you smug and holier-than-thou, yoga will make you more healthy and more aware, which will increase your happiness and continually add joy to your life.
Edited by jimg 2009-02-26 1:22 PM
|
|
| |
|
| The very concept of moral superiority is what causes much of the conflict and suffering in the world. It seperates us from each other.
(Is this a simple fact or is this just me trying to be morally superior again?)
|
|
| |
|
| for me, it doesn't matter if a person has, wants, or gets implants. that is within themselves to discover and determine.
i had a client who had breast cancer. her doctors (all male, btw) suggested removal and reconstruction. she had no women with whom she felt she could discuss this, and therefore came to me. at great length, we discussed the meaning of her breasts emotionally, physically, and spiritually (from her own thought/mind). we discussed how male doctors may not understand the connections that she had, and whether or not she wanted to go a chemical route first (at the prospect of loosing her hair, not getting rid of the cancer, etc) vs simply a double removal.
with this, she had the decision as to whether to reconstruct her breasts or not. we discussed at length how she felt about that if she were to remove them, what that would mean to her emotionally, spiritually, and otherwise.
i never learned what she chose, we simply had a long conversation on the matter.
often, this is not about beauty normatives from the outside at all, but rather about the very complex sense of self that we have created over time and how the body may and may not reflect that sense of self.
because of this complexity, i'm really in no position to comment on what choice one may or may not make. in the end, it is simply my job to care for and about that person to the best of my ability, answer questions honestly, or reflect back questions when they are things that i cannot answer for another (such as with my client mentioned above).
as it is, i have not yet seen my girls with implants this week, though i hope to pass along these questions soon. |
|
| |
|
| This has turned into a great philosophical debate and it's very interesting.
A lot of "yogi" people have been so turned off by their attachments or others people's attachments that they become averse to the physical plane we live on. The truth is that aversion is simply attachment in reverse. By being averse your no further "advanced" spiritually then the guy who insists his cars are from Porsche and only wears Armani suits. And yes even the woman who desires breast implants. Rejecting the world is not spiritual.
Is someone who desires breast implants suffering from body dysmorphia or low self esteem? Probably to some degree. We all to various degrees wish we could improve our physical appearance because we have been condtioned to believe how we look matters.Very few of us on earth have evolved enough to experience ourselves as our own consciousness vs. a physical being.
An important point is by getting breast implants it's not likely to improve our view of ourselves, albeit temporarily. That's the paradox.
Accepting what you desire is important in terms of ever evolving past those very desires. Spiritual wisdom dictates that unfullfilled desires lead to anger. So living without desires is a realized beings natural state but not us average earthlings.
Personally I highlight my hair, preen in the mirror occasionally and buy designer jeans. I enjoy that aspect of myself. I also meditate daily and have had an established spiritual practise for 12 years.
My wife got breast implants last year. She is tall and got pretty nice size ones. she went from A cup to 34DD. She didnt do it to attract other men or do it for me. She did them for herself. I have not noticed any real difference in her behavour or attitude. |
|
| |
|
| jimg - 2009-02-26 2:42 PM
The very concept of moral superiority is what causes much of the conflict and suffering in the world. It seperates us from each other.
(Is this a simple fact or is this just me trying to be morally superior again?)
People who start out on a spiritual journey/path are still very attached to their ego. It's no surprise they develop a spirtual ego.
How do you know how ensnared you are by a spiritual ego? By your degree or lack of lightheartedness. All great being are very lighthearted and laugh a lot. They dont take life or people too seriously. |
|
| |
|
Forum Administrator
| joysweat - 2009-02-25 10:02 PM
For another take on this, visit a site I found (warning - photo alert): http://www.paulkienitz.net/no-implants.html (40 reasons not to get a boob job).
And for every reason there is to not get implants, there are 10 reasons to get them. It's a personal choice and no one has the right to opine one way or the orther on a person's choices regarding their inner and outer sense of beauty and comfort.  |
|
| |
breast implants and bikram yoga
