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alignment in handstand
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saab340
Posted 2008-05-27 12:54 AM (#107889)
Subject: alignment in handstand


I've recently been practicing coming up into handstand with both legs. I get into a short downward dog, tip-toe my feet in closer to my hands, jump up and immediately lift out of the shoulders and extend both legs to complete the movement.

My problem is that my body ends up a bit forward of my hands, so that my back touches the wall but my hands are still a few inches away from the wall. My handstand looks like the first picture on this website:

http://www.evanhawke.com/hardcore_training.htm (I'm not the guy in the picture.)

I instead want my hands and body to be in one straight line. I'd like to be able to hover without wall support, but for now I'm working on getting only the feet to touch the wall, so that I can take each foot off the wall and balance just on my hands. But my back touches the wall even if I kick up a foot away from the wall. I don't slam into the wall, but I also haven't found the balance point where I can just hover without wall support.

Is this a common problem and does anyone have pointers?

Edited by saab340 2008-05-27 12:59 AM
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browntoes
Posted 2008-05-27 4:34 PM (#107913 - in reply to #107889)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand


How are your bandhas? It sounds like you lose your bandhas when you bunny hop up to the wall. Try engaging the bandhas and keeping them engaged (much easier said than done for me ;)) all the way through the asana.

I am trying to learn to do them away from the wall in Anusara class right now. We go from Standing splits (urdhva prasarita eka padasana) into Handstand (Adho Mukha Vrksasana) I almost took out the whole second row last Saturday
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Nick
Posted 2008-05-27 5:55 PM (#107917 - in reply to #107889)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi there,
I don't practice anusara yoga, but in my experience, the wall is no help in getting to a handstand by pressing-of course, if you jump, it's very handy-then you're in a vicious circle-jumping trains the contraction of different muscles than pressing into a handstand.
In most forms of yoga, the handstand is not held with the body and legs in a straight line-it is in gymnastics-for aesthetic reasons and also because it is a better springboard for moving into somersaults and so on.
It took me about a year or two to press into a handstand-I believe my progress was slowed by my learning to use the wall first. But I don't think it's usually anything that can be accomplished quickly. You have to get used to failing
There's a whole bunch of pointers-but beware-what can seem like a good idea with handstand can sometimes lead to injury or failure over the course of time. Most people don't have good wrist strength, and as your wrists are unable to stop going into hyper-extension, you are at risk of wrist injury-try to keep the elbows over the hand, rather than over the fingers, or even better, over the wrist. This will force your spine and legs to become stronger and more flexible, rather than your wrists taking the brunt of the effort.

Nick
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OrangeMat
Posted 2008-05-27 6:42 PM (#107918 - in reply to #107889)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand


What do you mean by "lift out of the shoulders"? I do practice Anusara, and for me, the toughest part of handstand is softening the heart forward. You can pull your shoulderblades down toward your waist (I'm assuming that's what you mean) all you want, but if you keep the chest concave, you're never really going to balance.

If you look at the fourth set of pictures in the link you provided, the ones following the line "All you then need to do is straighten your legs into a handstand. Simple eh...", you'll see what I mean. The picture on the left, where his legs are still bent, that's what's meant by softening or melting the heart. Imagine if he were to continue to press the back of his head up against the wall while straightening the legs -- could you see how he would line up the way you're desiring? Pressing the fingertips down more would help as well to get that plumb-line effect.

You asked if it's a common problem. Oh yes. Well, more a common difficulty than problem. For me, once I melt my heart, my lower back curves as well, and I go into what's commonly called banana-back. And then you get what I call the push-me-pull-you effect: you fix one thing, and another goes; you fix the second and you've lost the first. That's the balance that is Yoga. Learning to play and have patience with all that is what the practice is all about.

Keep at it. You'll be fine. I can't balance yet either.

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spyrotone
Posted 2008-05-29 4:13 PM (#107997 - in reply to #107889)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand


Om Everyone,

I’ve been working on handstand, off and on, for number of years. It takes a long time. On a good day, I can press it up and hang for five or six breaths before coming down. I do not use the wall. I’ve found recently to control the posture from the hip sockets: gently rotating inward with inhalation, tailbone to the sky, and outward with exhalation, squeezing the buns. This was a breakthrough for me. Here are a couple more unconventional things I’ll share but that might not be for everyone. Try it and see.

Let your head hang down, relaxed, rather than looking at the floor. Look to the edge of the room as your horizon. Think of yourself as lifting the floor overhead, and press up with inhalation. Sounds impossible, but it comes in time: exhale as you load the weight, feet spread wide and close to parallel inline to the hands (5-6 inches in front), press up to your tip-toes, heels rotated outward, and then inhale as your feet leave the floor, rotating elbows and armpits inward, reaching out and away with your toes. You will feel lift. No jumping.

If you can train your body to press up with inhalation in this way, the day comes when you will just roll upward through rotation of the joints. Strength here is control and balance. And Nick is right. Try to avoid the wall. Don’t launch yourself. Just press up as best you can, hold and breathe and come back down. Give yourself the time it takes. It took me a couple years. Kicking up against the wall will not serve you in the long run.

It’s a sublime posture. Have fun. Good luck. Emil

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Posted 2008-05-29 7:24 PM (#108006 - in reply to #107889)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand


Steering clear of this one but enjoyed the read. thanks.
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hnia
Posted 2008-05-30 1:47 PM (#108038 - in reply to #107889)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand


It is possible to have great balance in handstands, not use the wall and not be able to lift. I can come into a handstand by kicking up, walking my legs up a wall, jumping with straight legs, jumping with tuck position, jumping with saddle position

Lifting is not for everyone and not everyone should try it.

Whereas jumping, walking or kicking up can be a wonderful modification.

If you work with an experienced teacher they can show you all kinds of ways to get into a handstand.

If you were my student, I would be your wall.

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browntoes
Posted 2008-06-13 3:44 PM (#108387 - in reply to #107889)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand


Any tips, prep poses that will encourage me to get that slow lift away from the wall? I can do that wall thing but I really want to work towards the slow lift. In Anusara, we are still kicking up - only now I dont have a wall and I am going to hurt myself or someone in the process .

Thanks
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siva
Posted 2008-06-14 11:15 AM (#108416 - in reply to #107889)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand


Do you also jump to your feet to stand up? No. You put your feet on the floor and guide yourself up to a position of balance. This is no different. And it's not lifting, it's shifting balance. You're turning and pressing both sides of the body together into center, starting in the arms and shoulders and using the legs as cantilevers to first roll the hips up and then extending that arc until the feet come together overhead. And you do this with inhalation. (You can do this in pike position too when you're very strong.)

Here's the preparation.

Take a very wide horse stance, inhale/exhale namaskar mudra (prayer hands). Then, long inhale reach arms up until you're fully extended. Exhale hands down to the floor, shoulder width or slightly wider. Take one or several more breaths here. Place your hands on a parallel line approximately 6 inches in front of your feet. Take one more breath, inhale. Exhale as you load the weight into the arms and shoulders. Now inhale, press and turn shoulders into the chest, squeeze the buns and turn outward from the heels. Let the head hang down. Look out across the floor and believe as though you're lifting the room overhead.

This is not easy, and yes it's not for everybody. Most likely you're advanced to accomplish this. But when you do....you'll have a handstand!

Good luck. Have fun. Please don't hurt yourselves.

Siva

Edited by siva 2008-06-14 11:19 AM
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Nick
Posted 2008-06-15 12:17 PM (#108430 - in reply to #108387)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand



20005001002525
Location: London, England
browntoes - 2008-06-13 7:44 PM

Any tips, prep poses that will encourage me to get that slow lift away from the wall? I can do that wall thing but I really want to work towards the slow lift. In Anusara, we are still kicking up - only now I dont have a wall and I am going to hurt myself or someone in the process .

Thanks

Hi BT,
There's a few things I use:
First of all, I think you have to stop using the wall to kick up.
Also, using the sun salutes, if you have those in anusara yoga, otherwise each time you jump back, you are reinforcing jumping in to handstands. There's several ways of using the sun slaute to practice for handstands.
Pull-ups, press ups, core stability exercises, cat-camel, bird-dog pose, lifting from bakasana (because you can't jump), dips, are all examples of good prep poses for lifting into handstand.
One of my favourites is also to practice both the front lever and the planche, both exercises I haven't got the hang of yet, but it's coming, and as I progress at these I can detect vast improvements in my ability to lift into a handstand.
Use a spotter. The spotter should try to help as little as possible, but should try to instill good technique. I hold the hips in those who are having more trouble, sometimes putting one hand on the middle back, or pushing my knees against their shoulders to prevent too much extension in the wrist. In the more able, I'll hold the feet or ankles.
In order to truly lift, you have to be able to put 100% of your body weight on to your hands in a graduated manner. So what I'll do is go into a standing forward bend, but try to fall with control on to my hands a little bit, then, as I inhale, I'll begin to extend my spine, and at the same time go up onto the tips of my toes, which then means that you have nearly your whole body weight on your hands, then as you exhale, you begin the lift, which involves extending the hips and spine. This is different from Emil's handstand, but they're both good. For everyone, overcoming the inertia is difficult, and the exhalation tends to be muted-a good handstander will try to breathe powerfully throughout.
Two other good exercises to do with a helper are to lie on your back with your arms stretched out on the floor above your head. Your helper holds your feet, you tighten your whole body, then the helper lifts your feet. Your have to maintain a straight line from your shoulders to your feet-if you cannot, you won't be able to lift in to a handstand. Another great prep is to assume a press up position with your arms straight, then your helper lifts your feet. There's two variations. If you want to get into the straight body position, keep the body straight as they lift you up. If you want to get to the extended hip and spine position, you begin to extend your spine so that you are looking at the floor, usually when you feet are nearly above you, so you maintain the straight body position then divert towards the extended position.
This subject is worth a book in it's own right, but that gives you plenty to practice.

Nick
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OrangeMat
Posted 2008-06-16 11:30 AM (#108442 - in reply to #108387)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand


browntoes - 2008-06-13 3:44 PM Any tips, prep poses that will encourage me to get that slow lift away from the wall? I can do that wall thing but I really want to work towards the slow lift. In Anusara, we are still kicking up - only now I dont have a wall and I am going to hurt myself or someone in the process . Thanks

We worked on the non-kickup method in class today, though it was with a partner assist and with separate legs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBD1axxMkAA&feature=related

We had the option of either attempting it as in the video, starting on the block, or having the partner offer resistance to the lifted leg so that the other legs just lifts as the body weight shifts over the hands. Most of us practiced this near the wall, but there was no kicking up involved. I did try the block variation, but still had someone just guide my hips over my shoulders, for security. She said I was barely an inch away from levering up by myself though.

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Nick
Posted 2008-06-17 9:20 AM (#108456 - in reply to #108430)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi BT,
I forgot to mention a vital component In fact, the most vital component for most of us.
Before you start to take your feet off the ground, you need to try to extend the lumbar spine. This takes skill and practice. When the lumbar spine is extended, the pelvis is then turned further upside down, and is also pulled over the axis that exists between the two shoulder joint. It is this axis about which the torso and legs rotate as you press on the floor to take the feet off the ground.
What this means is that you basically contract the muscles either side of the lumbar spine, I would think quadratus lumborum fits the bill nicely, as does latissimus dorsi, whose origin is on the posterior pelvic brim and is also attached by a sheet of tendon to the lumbar spine, and the lats then insert into the humerus. However, because the humerus is a fixed point in the handstand (hopefully ), the origin and insertion of latissimus are reversed-the insertion into the humerus becomes the origin, and the other end becomes what is called the 'insertion.'
I try to utilize the lats to this effect thoughout my yoga practice-they are a climbing muscle, very developed in gymnasts and other disciplines like swimming which involve lifting the arms above the head and pulling the participant towards their target.
I mention this in some detail because I think that many students, especially those who learn to kick up into the handstand, push hard away from the floor as the shoot their legs above their hips. Using latissimus wisely can help to slow down the entry into the pose.
As you lift the feet away from the floor, the hips will go through a very strong flexion moment, and the lats will help produce an extensor moment, along with the hamstrings and gluteal muscles-every muscle I've mentioned so far has been a core muscle, which I define as bandha.
There you go, hope that helps too.
Nick

Edited by Nick 2008-06-17 9:21 AM
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browntoes
Posted 2008-06-17 2:35 PM (#108469 - in reply to #107889)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand


Awesome replies. It is something to work at this summer. I will let you know how it goes. Thanks all for the coaching.
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siva
Posted 2008-06-17 4:07 PM (#108474 - in reply to #107889)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand


Hari Om,

Great news. You see? You may already have much of the strength you need to do this, however it's a matter of concentration and finding the balance and coordination. Technique is strength here.

"A summer of work." That's about right. Good perspective.

If pressing up with inhalation seems impossible, then by all means, exhale. But keep in mind, as you exhale, you're holding and contracting many muscles that need to lengthen. Make sense? So do what you must, but don't give up on the inhalation forever. Maybe in the future you reverse it. Ok?

Never give up! Please keep me posted.

Jai!

Emil

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Nick
Posted 2008-06-18 1:35 AM (#108487 - in reply to #108474)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Emil,
Would you mind sharing which breathing muscles have to lengthen as you go in to a handstand, if you exhale-I'm always trying to figure out new alternatives, and the reasons for doing them. Cheers
Nick
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Nick
Posted 2008-06-18 1:36 AM (#108494 - in reply to #108474)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Emil,
Would you mind sharing which breathing muscles have to lengthen as you go in to a handstand, if you exhale-I'm always trying to figure out new alternatives, and the reasons for doing them. Cheers
Nick
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siva
Posted 2008-06-18 12:20 PM (#108511 - in reply to #107889)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand


Hello Nick,

Let’s first take a look at principle: How exhalation/inhalation relates to stability, mobility and strength.

When we exhale, we have to hold the stabilizing muscles in the core of the body that support mobilization (those used in part to raise and invert the body in this case). When we initiate with inhalation, we have to let those muscles go, and we are forced to derive the strength through shifting balance and changes in alignment and form. That’s a fundamental aspect of any balancing asana. Also, this strengthens the deepest stabilizer muscles, which are closer to the bone and have more stamina (slow twitch fiber), so when you do reach the top, your muscles aren’t burning and you can stand relaxed.

Now then, if you’re trying to exhale out of a forward bent position into handstand, erector abdominus, obliques, intercostals, etc., are first shortened and held, so there’s a struggle happening. You have to hold to exhale and yet lengthen them to raise the body. It can be done, yes, but you tire quickly and fall. You want to reach the top and be a pillar? You want to float? Exhale load the weight, inhale turn and press.

There’s no magic. This is difficult, and most folks will not be able to do this. But you have only to reach a single degree of success to understand the power of this principle. Even if you can never do it, you want to know this. I can only hold this for 6 or 7 breaths on a good day, but it’s getting better. As I said, I’ve recently learned how to control the balance in the hips. I had to be standing for a few breaths first before it occurred to me. That took some years.

One thing you can do, is rock up onto your hands if it helps. This is different from jumping. Try putting your hands down with exhalation, and then inhale as you follow through with just a little momementum. Momentum here is not the same as jumping and catching.

I hope this will not discourage you. It’s a very long journey, and one to be enjoyed.

Om

Emil

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Nick
Posted 2008-06-18 1:14 PM (#108512 - in reply to #108511)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hello Emil,



"When we exhale, we have to hold the stabilizing muscles in the core of the body that support mobilization (those used in part to raise and invert the body in this case). When we initiate with inhalation, we have to let those muscles go, and we are forced to derive the strength through shifting balance and changes in alignment and form. That’s a fundamental aspect of any balancing asana. Also, this strengthens the deepest stabilizer muscles, which are closer to the bone and have more stamina (slow twitch fiber), so when you do reach the top, your muscles aren’t burning and you can stand relaxed."

All this goes against my understanding of human anatomy-it appears that you are saying that the core muscles can only be engaged fully on the inhalation-whereas all core stability training and astanga yoga teaches to hold the core strong throughout the breathing cycle-otherwise it's effectively useless.

"Now then, if you’re trying to exhale out of a forward bent position into handstand, erector abdominus, obliques, intercostals, etc., are first shortened and held, so there’s a struggle happening. You have to hold to exhale and yet lengthen them to raise the body. It can be done, yes, but you tire quickly and fall. You want to reach the top and be a pillar? You want to float? Exhale load the weight, inhale turn and press"

There's no such muscle as erector abdominus, you must be getting confused with something else.
I would also say that none of these muscles necessarily has to lengthen to raise the body, and in actual fact, many of the core muscles merely provide a bridge across which forces are transmitted through the body-none of the muscles you describe are in actual fact functional in providing the necessary movements to get into handstand-none of them are hip extensors.

"There’s no magic. This is difficult, and most folks will not be able to do this. But you have only to reach a single degree of success to understand the power of this principle. Even if you can never do it, you want to know this. I can only hold this for 6 or 7 breaths on a good day, but it’s getting better. As I said, I’ve recently learned how to control the balance in the hips. I had to be standing for a few breaths first before it occurred to me. That took some years."

I can already do it, I was just looking to clarify stuff that was confusing me in your posts. In astanga yoga we work up to 50 breaths, I'm not there quite yet. Thanks anyway for your explanation.
Nick






Edited by Nick 2008-06-18 1:23 PM
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siva
Posted 2008-06-18 2:24 PM (#108517 - in reply to #107889)
Subject: RE: alignment in handstand


Nick,

I'm touched by your sincerity. Perhaps you've learned too much.

"There's no such muscle as erector abdominus, you must be getting confused with something else."

Yes. I'm confusing it with Rectus Abdominis. Is there a difference? Sorry for my casual latin, although it really does mean the same, doesn't it (function and location)?

That's right. The deepest stabilization tissue is engaged during inhalation. It's exactly why you'll inhale instinctively when you suddenly loose your balance. This you already knew too?

It's very easy to get lost in words Nick. If you're are already doing the handstand in this way, great! I look forward to the day when you can help me get to the 50 breaths.

Om Shanti,

Emil


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