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 who have you studied with?Moderators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 2 3 Now viewing page 2 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Yoga -> Ashtanga Yoga | Message format |
Bay Guy |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 2479    Location: A Blue State | |||
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| Bay Guy |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 2479 Location: A Blue State | |||
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| Bay Guy |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 2479 Location: A Blue State | |||
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442   | Happy seasonal greetings, Bay Guy! Good to see you.  Manuso is actually VERY interesting. He seems to teach in a bit of a shock therapy style - loud, outrageous comments and the occasional cuss to keep the students awake. I enjoyed the workshop I did with him except when the fire alarm went and we had to stand outside in the cold for 10 minutes. Not his fault, as far as I know.  People get their knickers waaaay too twisted up about Iyengar teachers "hitting." I don't know about BKS in the old days, but I have never, ever been hurt, physically or emotionally, by being "hit." | ||
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| Bay Guy |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 2479 Location: A Blue State | |||
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| Bay Guy |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 2479 Location: A Blue State | |||
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | aystam - I think the thing with this is that so much depends upon the individuals, the circumstance and the dynamic between the teacher and student. I certainly do not defend abusive behaviour in any way. And, as I said, I can't talk about Iyengar in the old days (or his thousands of teachers nowadays) but can only speak from my own experience. I have see Geeta "hit" a student in order to teach him how to lift and open his chest, encouraging him loudly all the time in front of 300 or so people. I did not get the sense that anyone in the room felt it was abusive and the student was smiling. In fact, he said "this is harder than heli-skiing!" and she replied, laughing, "who told you yoga was supposed to be easy?" OTOH, at the same conference, she had one of my teachers demo-ing urdhva hastasana for a really long time (I swear it was 10 min!). I was inwardly cringing, as I was sure it must have been painful to do the pose that long and other people commented that they thought it was abusive. The teacher said that she had been concentrating so intensely on Geeta's instructions that she had no idea how long she had her arms up. So I learned not to put my emotions onto someone else. I don't know if I have confessed this before, but I apparently have "hit" at least one student. I was trying to get the class to open the upper quadrant of the chest, right under the collar bone, near the arm pit. (Think Maggie Gyllenhaal - a championship sloucher if ever their was one! They did an amazing job in the Dark Knight of disguising her horrifying posture...) I was explaining it again and one student spoke up and said "right here - I always remember because you came and thumped me there once." I have no memory of it and I often have students do this on themselves. Apparently she had no concerns about it either, as it was not intended as and was not taken as abusive. It was not punitive, but simply a method of waking up a dull, lifeless area of the body. I can imagine that if a student is used to a practice with no physical adjustments, it might be pretty shocking to have the teacher come up and thump his/her chest and all of us who teach know there are individuals who you just can't touch in anyway. They usually send off a pretty strong vibe. And we do have to be VERY clear on what we are doing and be sure our students know. I feel REALLY awful about a very small adjustment I made to a long time student the other day. It was a restorative class and she was already in savasana. I was sure she had seen and heard me approaching, so I didn't say anything before I made the adjustment. She actually hadn't seen me coming and jumped a mile when I touched her.  I felt so bad! Anyway, I am a busy girl today and have to get going. I am sure this conversation will continue! | ||
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | |||
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | Ha! I was expecting that response from Nick!  | ||
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| yogastudent |
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When I was new to yoga, one day my teacher asked to do standing lateral bend, and he called for straighten arms, lengthen spine, firm abdomen and neutral pelvic. I was trying to bend as far as I can without paying attention to his words, I did not suck in my belly. He came by and unexpectedly “punched” my belly with his fist, it was heavy enough to leave a lasting impression, as his fist had stopped and turned for a second or two at the spot I should have firmed abdomen muscles to. Did I get upset or angry? Perhaps for a day, but I thank him for the rest of my life for allowing my body to register the message that I should not overstretch without giving proper focus to alignment. He did give a blow to my ego though, who badly deserves it. I would call that a skillful and loving adjustment, it protects me from going into dangerous territory, and yes, definitely non-violence.  He remains my most loved and respected yoga teacher. Namaste | |||
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| Nick |
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 Location: London, England | tourist - 2009-01-04 10:58 PM Ha! I was expecting that response from Nick! Hi Glenda, I'm afraid that you would have to pay for that kind of attention, like you always do  . The pain's much satisfying if my clients pay for it Nick | ||
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| hnia |
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yogastudent - 2009-01-04 10:20 PM When I was new to yoga, one day my teacher asked to do standing lateral bend, and he called for straighten arms, lengthen spine, firm abdomen and neutral pelvic. I was trying to bend as far as I can without paying attention to his words, I did not suck in my belly. He came by and unexpectedly “punched” my belly with his fist, it was heavy enough to leave a lasting impression, as his fist had stopped and turned for a second or two at the spot I should have firmed abdomen muscles to. Did I get upset or angry? Perhaps for a day, but I thank him for the rest of my life for allowing my body to register the message that I should not overstretch without giving proper focus to alignment. He did give a blow to my ego though, who badly deserves it. I would call that a skillful and loving adjustment, it protects me from going into dangerous territory, and yes, definitely non-violence. He remains my most loved and respected yoga teacher. NamasteDo you consider it OK for a math teacher to punch you if you get the wrong answer? Would you later rationalize that punch as a loving non-violent teaching aid? Do you think it is good for parents to hit their children? Do you think that it is good for school teachers to hit their students at their discretion? Remember that victims often rationalize being victimized by associating with the victimizer (strength/force) instead of with being a victim (submission/lack of control). A common example of this is alter boys who were molested by priests. Many of them, rather than seeing themself as a victim, become molesting priests themselves. Using Tourists's example of body work, yes, you must endure pain at the massuse, the dentist or the doctor to get the benefits of some treatments. Rather than a "hands on" approach, they cannot use words to do the treatment. In teaching yoga, you can use words, example and many other teaching devices. In yoga, the pain is not a unfortunate byproduct of the needed act, it is the act itself and it is both arrogant and violent. Good teachers teach by example, not by physical violence or humiliation. Good teachers motivate their students to improve. Bad teachers bully and force their students. I think that it is about time that modern yogis keep and develop the useful teachings from the past, but divorce themselves from the arrogant, authoritarian teaching styles that have no place in the modern world. | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | hnia - 2009-01-05 4:59 PM I just wanted to add that both Bikram and Jois have had some issues about abusive. Bikram yelling and being very abusive and Jois has been said to give women unnecessary adjustments. It's not just iyengar....that's all... Good point-give people power and the rule seems to be they will abuse it. Yoga is not free of this but people pretend it is. I remember being shocked at the level of sexual abuse that seemed endemic in yoga when I started about 20 years ago. In astanga yoga, it seems to be accepted-people are so desperate to be considered close to the guru, that they forgo their rights and those of their fellow students in order to conform. I once had a victim of abuse by one teacher in India say how she was going back next year, but that it was horrible because she could tell from the teacher's mood that he would grope her in that class. Absolutely astonishing. The male students who know the abuse is going on turn a blind eye. Which makes them as disgusting as the teacher. Sorry for the rant Nick | ||
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | |||
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| Bay Guy |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 2479 Location: A Blue State | |||
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| yogastudent |
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | A good deal of this conversation depends largely on how you define abuse. As I said, I have never seen a student "abused" while others saw it differently. I know that my teachers, back in the 70's, were shocked to be hit in class. But they made a decision (you may call it rationalization) to learn what they could from the experience and move on. It probably helped that some of them came from very "old school" backgrounds and BKS likely reminded them of their old English school masters. "If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!" Here's a comment from our dear old friend, Yoga Dancer, who maintains the yoga asana index online at: http://www.yogadancer.com/Asana.shtml ***I, too, live to be adjusted. My hand is in the air so fast the teacher's head spins when s/he needs someone for a demo. The pragmatic, genderless treatment of the human body is something that I really respect. After all, we all have bodies, right? They're just different. After I was molested (several times) by a major yoga figure, it was the male teachers in my Ashtanga studio and their very general approach removed that discomfort and fear that figure had engendered. I'll be ever grateful to them for that. I had a teacher that poked with a long fingernail. Finally, being who I am, I grabbed her finger and said, "Suzie-Q? You can bend me, twist me, step on me, stand on me, pull me, and tie me up any way you see fit. But if you poke me again, I'm gonna break that finger off. Are my sentiments about adjustments clear?" Evidently they are. Touching happens. In life, in yoga, with humans. It's the intention that counts.*** | ||
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| yogastudent |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | |||
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | |||
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