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| Nick - 2008-05-05 1:38 PM
Hi Glenda and everybody,
That's great-things have changed then-but I was taught this by Kofi Busia amongst others-a senior Iyengar teacher who now teaches in America. Here's a few pictures of the pose-all done in a most untherapeutic manner for the low back:
Can you point me to any articles/pictures detailing the modern way of practicing this asana?
I guess another example might be triangle, or twisted triangle-in triangle, the emphasis on keeping the two hip joint in alignment with the legs, rather than mobilizing the hip joints to prevent hyper-extension of the lumbar spine, and in twisted triangle, where the lumbar spine is flexed and the SI joints are de-stabilized-of course, these observations are only from my own experience, but nothing I've seen lately corrects my views (I'm hard to please  )
Nick
I don't have any articles - it's merely what I was taught in class. I agree with you, though, the primary picture you linked is frightening in the appearance on the lumbar spine! It makes me wonder how much of the difference truly comes from teacher to teacher. 
As for triangle... it's been a long time since my stricter Iyengar training, and I know that I am now taught very specifically NOT to "square the hips" (so that they are not in the same line as the feet) due to the flexion of the spine and the placement of the sacrum in both the regular and revolved pose), so I can't comment with high confidence on what my traditional Iyengar teacher had taught us. (I can try to check my notes from my intro teaching class... If I can find them. ;) ) It really is fascinating to hear the differences, so thank you for the discussion! |
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Location: London, England | Hi Tiffany,
And thank you for being open-minded so that we can debate
Nick |
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| Dear Nick: Actually, I respect your knowledge of anatomy, etc. In fact, if I myself have a doubt in that direction, I shall not feel any hesitation to contact you, even travel to UK for that.
Yes, knowledge of anatomy, and whatever you write is extremely useful Health and Fitness. But, the problem is that Yoga is currently used for Fitness, and less for Health. And, some people who are senios in the Yoga Field including World Famous Yoga Teachers have a wrong notion that Yoga Exercise shall provide them perfect Health and Fitness. This is actually NOT true if you see their own health and appearance.
This is because Health does not depend only on exercise, alignment and fitness. It depends on many other things. Such teachers then tell their students such things as a) as long as they take vegetarian diet, they shall do great with Yoga b) as long as they compliment Yoga with Herbal Remedies, they shall do great with Yoga. (Yoga meaning Yoga Exercise.)
Also, what happens is: When a student has much poorer health than the teacher, the student gets much impressed thinking that the teacher is very healthy and knows everything (as you correctly wrote in your post above). And, they follow all the things of that teacher rather than only what that teacher is expert it.
For example, I can state this: more than 50 percent of the World Famous Yoga Teachers do NOT know anything or less than high school level kid about Nutrition. The reason they are great is: a) they are better than their students b) they have some ethically good habits of not drinking, not smoking, vegetarianism, one partner, etc. due to their being born Hindu, or whatever. c) etc. However, that does not mean they know nutrition well.
So, yes, I agree with you that knowledge of anatomy is essential for health and fitness. However, the true practice of Yoga deals ONLY with mind. Yes, Hatha Yoga has physical practices that lead a student into Meditative practices. But, please look around and you shall find that great Hatha Exercise practitioners of today are really not Hatha Yogis, they are only Exercise practiioners out of Hatha Yoga. Also, later they are not depicting Meditative lineage.
Once the Meditative lineage is reached, the practitioner does not necessarily keep us with physical health and fitness practices. That depends on situation.
When people use terms such as Vinyasa, Ashtanga, etc. they mean a style of doing Exercise. They do not actually mean 8 limbs of Yoga. When they practice 8 limbs in today's world, they interprete the 8 limbs in a way different than that are stated in the Sutras, they explain them with Physical Postures, Social Behaviors, etc. which are the topics of today.
Anyway, even with my explanation above, I truely respect your explanations and am not in any way contradicting the value of them. Only thing is :
Yoga is NOT to be taken as Medicals, Fitness, Physical ways, etc. In Yoga, the aim is to train the mind. When that is given prime importance, one is doing Yoga. Also, to make a blatant statement against the opinon of famous Yoga Teachers:
It is IMPOSSIBLE to obtain physical health perfection only by doing Yoga Exercises. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| Nick - I spent a lot of time changing your link to a tiny url so once again, little time to chat. It would be great if people here could either learn to make a link (which I still haven't learned myself!) or use tinyurl.com . It is really hard to read pages where one must scroll sideways constantly.
I am not fond of most of those photos of supta virasana, though the guy on the heart bench looks ok to me. And the dog is cute My guess is that those students showing the pose without props would typically be corrected in an actual class (lengthen the lumbar, take the protruding ribs back etc.), though we are sometimes encouraged to do these poses without our usual support as a learning tool. When we constantly take mountains of props to make the pose "comfortable" we lose the sense of where we need to go next to move toward the classical expression of the pose. Those women are learning a lot about how they need to work in the lumbar and it will improve their pose in the long run. This is not something that we do with beginners, of course. |
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| Even "anatomical people" cannot agree on some very "interesting" issues.
Put a kinesiologist and an anatomist in the same cage and see what happens.
Relative to Iyengar, and I'm sharing my perspective based on my teacher who was born as a result of Iyengar and studied with him from age 7, much of his asana work is very sound and comes from his own body. As I understand it, he had some major therapeutic issues which he found ways of resolving. In fact the lower back series we do as part of Purna Yoga was originally devised by Iyengar (then refined) to help my teacher with his own back issue.
There are, of course, some things that have had to change over time. For example on the cover of Yoga: The Path to Holistic Health I believe there's a photo showing the arms up and apart in Vira I. It has been asserted that the pose should not be done in this way for those who have heart issues as the diaphragm pressures the heart. So it was changed. Some things have not been changed and my teacher himself has varied the work based on his teacher's teachings AND his work in his own body AND his study of Applied Anatomy.
So for me relative to anatomy there's a time to back off in the assertions. After all, it is applied anatomy. There are other ways to become attached to anatomy, bio-mechanics, movement, without yoga. So I'm a yoga teacher who applies sound anatomy. I am not a kinesiologist who teaches yoga nor am I an anatomist who teaches yoga.
We've reviewed several anatomy books in our training and while some of them know anatomy quite well they do not know yoga at all. Choose carefully.
Edited by purnayoga 2008-05-07 11:53 AM
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| Reclining Hero:
I leave the natural curve in my back all the time.
I've had teachers stand on my thighs without any trouble.
I'm sure I could flatten my low back but what would that do, besides make the knees more at risk?
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| Although I sometimes do supta virasana (reclining hero) myself, I do not teach it in a class setting because I think that it is too dangerous for both the knees and /or the lower back for many people. I choose not to waste the amount of class time it takes to get everyone doing this pose safely. |
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| They teach it in Bikram class everyday without props and everyone seems fine... |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Essentially, in yoga asana in general (and you are free to disagree and I am sure someone will...) we need to open what is closed, lengthen what is shortened, create space where there is tightness and create firmness where there is laxity. While I have seen a change in emphasis in the last 11 years of Iyengar study, I believe the principles are the same. For example, I hear much more about compacting the hips and keeping the upper arm bone in the socket than I used to hear. Increasing flexibility is being replaced with increasing strength. These are not new concepts, but I believe our western interpretation of the teachings may have led to some problems that are now being seen and corrected. Our incessant desire to lengthen the hamstrings, for example, may have led some to over-open the hips and create problems there. Is this BKS Iyengar's "fault" or the faulty understanding of his students who then passed it on to others? Will my poor students copy my own mistakes and possibly have problems because of it? Very likely. All I can do is my best. If I find an example of anatomical perfection, I will drag him/her to class with me to demo. Wish me luck! 
ETA - and I do think that alignment in vinyasa is MUCH harder to achieve than alignment in static poses.. Just so we can keep some semblance of the op.. |
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| tourist - 2008-05-07 5:59 PM
If I find an example of anatomical perfection, I will drag him/her to class with me to demo.
i think this might be the career i've been looking for 
i think if i practiced purely vinyasa based asanas, at that point my alignment in static poses would start to suffer. any less and i'd prolly be in the clear, hmm?
good points, Glenda...
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| hnia - 2008-05-07 12:46 PM
They teach it in Bikram class everyday without props and everyone seems fine...
Many people (especially older people) badly injure their knees doing this pose at Bikram's and many other people hurt their backs. There was a Yoga Journal article about three people's journey with yoga. One was a man who had badly injured his knees at Bikram's with this pose. I personally know two people (one a yoga teacher) who have had knee problems as a result of this pose (their diagnosis, not mine). I have myself experienced the lower back problems with this pose, especially when done in the way it is at Bikram's. People who are injured at Bikram usually don't come back, so you probably don't hear about their injuries. As a teacher of non-Bikram yoga, you often hear about these injuries from new students. |
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| I found this thread very interesting. I'm new to this forum, and somewhat new to yoga as well. My first experience was with heated power/vinyasa style (Baron Baptiste inspired), and I swore by it since I started back in October. Interestingly, when I changed locations for the summer and couldn't find a vinyasa class that I could truly commit to like I could back home, I decided to try Iyengar, since I knew nothing about it. After my first class, I wasn't sure what to think because it was so vastly different. But I made myself go back and found that it was the perfect compliment to my vinyasa practice. I guess I'm coming from this situation from the opposite perspective, but my feelings tend to be towards a balance between the flow yoga and Iyengar. My Iyengar instructor has a way of bringing my awareness to my alignment in each position we practice, and while it may not be fast paced like my flow class, I've definitely improved my tree pose, my warrior poses, and just my standing poses.
I would assume that the reverse would have some benefit too, starting with Iyengar and adding some vinyasa classes in. I really like the movement of vinyasa, the flow, and the linking of breath to movement, but it's true that not much attention is payed to your body's alignment. The simplest things like lifting your inner ankle while in the warrior poses, or compacting your legs in shoulder stand, or keeping your knees together and reaching forward in backbends are overlooked and often under-emphasized. But by going from an alignment-based yoga into a flow style, I think you'd have a fun time adjusting. The excitement in vinyasa (at least for me) is being able to work with your body as it moves, to be aware of where you are placing your feet, where you intend to move next. Maybe your alignment might suffer in the beginning, but proprioception isn't something you forget. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Welcome Jen - yes, Iyengar compliments vinyasa-based yoga very well, especially in the beginning. When I look at some of my beginner students and imagine them trying to do vinyasa when they can't touch the floor without kneeling or remember which poses have straight or bent legs (even as I am standing beside them saying "Legs straight!" I cannot imagine them trying to flow from pose to pose without damaging some body part or other. Personally, I know that with my own alignment issues, I would have injured myself early on without the attention to details in Iyengar.
Enjoy your classes! |
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| I think the best view I've heard was from a hard-core Ashtangi who said that they also took Iyengar classes as they they saw them as their yoga theory class.
Fee |
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| i'm new to yoga but it seems like iyengar is for like old people and the vinyasa thing is for the young people until you hurt yourself in the v thing and then you go to the iyengar thing because you are old or hurt. i guess for young people, i is pretty boring |
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| Look deeper. |
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| SharonL - 2008-07-18 7:35 PM
i'm new to yoga but it seems like iyengar is for like old people and the vinyasa thing is for the young people until you hurt yourself in the v thing and then you go to the iyengar thing because you are old or hurt. i guess for young people, i is pretty boring
brilliant!
...
but why even go to the trouble of hurting yourself?
young people just have no attention span, so its hard for them to stay in poses for more than 5 breaths |
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| Iyengar is boring but a necessary discipline if you want to do vinyasa with good form (attention to detail) and therefore without injuries. You need to first learn the notes, and then learn to play scales.
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| Boring:
"I am so overstimulated that any stimulation less than my tolerance feels as though nothing at all is happening in my life whatsoever." |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Jim - I would disagree that Iyengar is boring. It very much depends on the individual. I have found it endlessly fascinating from Day One myself, but then I am a Virgo and it appeals to my sense of detail. I also practiced yoga in the 60's and had a gazillion questions arise, even as a scatter-brained teen, about how to best achieve the full expression of the poses. Iyengar classes answered all those questions and more. So, not always boring. 
As far as the musical analogy, I suppose we could look at it this way: probably the best way to become a serious musician in any genre is to learn the notes and scales first and the melody when one is ready. However, the world is full of people who have had a fervent desire to play music and just have to jump in and do it. My DD is one of these people. At about age 3 she had someone show her how to play a nursery rhyme on our old piano and she just took off from there. I admit that it did give her teachers absolute fits trying to correct her technique in later years and her odd ball fingering did not cause permanent injuries (what's the piano equivalent of full lotus? ) but for her to begin playing with scales and finger exercises would have been disastrous. Eric Clapton learned by copying what he heard on records - not that I am equating my lovely DD with a musical "god" but still...
So I think I am arguing both sides here. But essentially, I'd say that people have to start where they start and I would hope that they don't "do vinyasa until you get injured and then go to Iyengar," though for some, that will be the way they have to go.
An added thought - can you imagine advocating that system in any other activity? "Sure you can scuba dive. Just go with someone who can instruct you as you go along until you burst an eardrum and then go take some lessons."  |
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| Wow! I want to state the following three statements, in response to this reckless statement, quoted below. Please think carefully and also note that I am NOT an Iyengar Style Yoga Teacher. So, there is NO affiliation to Iyengar Style organization while writing these statements.
a) I am amazed at the first line of the following quote. Because, it is interesting to see that i) hundreds and thousands of people all over the world seem to happily continue the practice, with benefit, for a very prolonged time, and the people come from all sorts of backgrounds and ages, ii) governments of certain countries have gone to the extent of awarding Mr. Iyengar for his efforts to benefit the fitness almost at a mankind level, and iii) the style is NOT only not boring, but it is so interesting that the Yoga things that are not part of the style are actually overlooked by its practitioners due to it being so attractive.
b) Even the play of scales becomes boring to those who only see play of scales in them. That is the origin of a weird idea that there is no goal to the life, life is always in a flux, and the flux itself is the goal, and there is no need to follow the footsteps or have ideals, but one should always go with the wind.
c) In the world, there are many kinds of people. Those who do Vinyasa without getting bored, while NOT paying attention to details (actually this will be a majority), and those who do while paying attention to details. There are also people who enjoy music without paying attention to details and enjoy it (I think this also is a majority) and those who pay attention to detail. There are also lot of persons who attend music concerts or performances and enjoy it without getting bored, while actually not understanding the music (I am sure this is a majority and also world famous artists actually suggest the average audience not to worry about understanding it, but just to enjoy it), and there are those who enjoy it while knowing details.
And there are those who may get bored because they know the details and they find that what is actually played is a rubbish. Or, what is actually performed under the name of Vinyas is only a pose to pose play without details while damaging the joints.
OM ShantiH
jimg - 2008-07-20 12:24 AM
Iyengar is boring but a necessary discipline if you want to do vinyasa with good form (attention to detail) and therefore without injuries. You need to first learn the notes, and then learn to play scales.
Edited by kulkarnn 2008-07-20 2:20 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| kulkarnn - 2008-07-20 11:15 AM
b) Even the play of scales becomes boring to those who only see play of scales in them. That is the origin of a weird idea that there is no goal to the life, life is always in a flux, and the flux itself is the goal, and there is no need to follow the footsteps or have ideals, but one should always go with the wind.
I love this Neel - this is why children have to be coaxed and urged to practice scales. They are to young and immature to see the bigger picture. If we are lucky they will thank us when they are older for all of our coaxing. |
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| I switched to Iyengar from Sivananda and have never regretted it. Yes, I miss the level of pranayama and specific meditations which is why I mix the two styles at home. I would have missed so much had I not switched :
- learning the difference between being in a pose and working the pose
- how to do the poses without crippling myself in the process
- how to modify the poses safey to suit my particular body's constraints and issues
- how a given pose can be performed with different emphasis (e.g. to open the chest for pranayama or to rest the brain, or to exercise the inner organs, etc, etc, etc)
- doing partner work (which I love with a passion)
- developing the most incredible circle of friends (my Sivananda class never socialised)
Bored? Never! There's far too much to learn!
Fee |
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| Thanks Sister Tourist. If my mother, who passed away in body form in the year 2001, comes back and slaps me in front of the Brother Bruce, I shall always thank her. Her slapping aligned me very well. Oh God thanks for giving me a slapping mother.
tourist - 2008-07-21 10:31 AM
kulkarnn - 2008-07-20 11:15 AM
b) Even the play of scales becomes boring to those who only see play of scales in them. That is the origin of a weird idea that there is no goal to the life, life is always in a flux, and the flux itself is the goal, and there is no need to follow the footsteps or have ideals, but one should always go with the wind.
I love this Neel - this is why children have to be coaxed and urged to practice scales. They are to young and immature to see the bigger picture. If we are lucky they will thank us when they are older for all of our coaxing. |
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| I guess that using the words "boring" in the same sentence as Iyengar hits some raw nerves! Sorry if I offended.
Neel-The palm tree goes with the wind and withstands the hurricane. The fir tree stands tall and proud, and is blown over with the first strong wind.
Is Iyengar a god or a saint? Is his yoga infallible?
Learning your scales is necessary to play music. Learning the details of the poses is necessary to do yoga. They are only the starting point. Neither the scales nor the poses are the music! Once the scales (or the poses) become an automatic reflex, the actual music can start. That music flows through you and is not a product of conscious thought. It does not come to you by following another. You find it in yourself; not by effort or force (or slapping), but by letting it unfold.
When Beethoven was a young man, he studied with Haydn. He copied Haydn's style and wrote poor music. He was merely an echo of someone else. Once he found his own unique voice, he became BEETHOVEN and wrote some of the greatest and most sublime music ever written. That unique voice was not static. It flowed and Beethoven continued to develop in new and deeper ways until his death.
There were many other composers at that time (like Danzi or Dittersdorf) who wrote scales accompanied by chords in perfect form, but no real music. They copied the norms of their day and became accomplished in them, but never got in touch with their own inner voices.
We, as yogis, can make this choice: to be echoes of someone else or become our own unique self, however humble. The gods do not smile on copies, no matter how accomplished. The gods smile on those who find and are true to their unique inner voice.
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Vinyasa-detrimental?
