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| I'm not asking whether you approve of vinyasa yoga per se. But I'm wondering if someone who practices alignment-focused yoga like Iyengar would somehow find their alignment suffering if they were to take a flow class once a week. Or twice a week.
I don't mean to ask if the alignment would suffer DURING the flow class. I know it does- but I mean: do you think it's likely one's overall alignment practice could or would start to slip? Assuming one still kept up the alignment practice, of course?
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| Diversity is much more than "nice". For yoga it is necessity.
However, for this post, terms might have to be clarified before answers rooted in clarity could be offered. There is vinyasa as a sanskrit term and there is a brand of yoga that has taken that term as well.
When I was overseas two years ago it became quite apparent that the term Vinyasa was not at all perceived there as it is here. They were not referencing Baron Baptiste or Beryl Bender Birch.
I believe there is vinyasa in almost all asana. Varying degrees of course. And I'm not therefore just talking about Surya Namaskar.
But on to your question. Which is "if I am taking a western asana class marketed as Vinyasa, will my sound alignment principles (from my alignment-based or Iyengar practice) generally suffer or be lost?". Is that accurate?
Depends on how you practice and how the particular flow class is instructed and how intermediate you are in your practice. If you're a beginning student you would be more susceptible to degradation of alignment (though it may not inherently be that way). If you are an intermediate asana student who has a strong sense of the alignments, their reasons, and you are rooted in dharana - it may be "okay" for your alignment.
I personally have not found western Vinyasa classes to help me one iota in my alignment. Though if I am self teaching in class I can discover or mine alignment in some of the poses as long as I am not too attached to the rush to move on that seems inherent in the pace of the practice.
Edited by purnayoga 2008-04-30 9:33 PM
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| So in the simplest terms, you're asking if your form is going to get sloppy if you continue taking this vinyasa class regularly. Uhhhh.... only if you let it, how's that? Personally, being a creature of form and alignment, I can't do ANYTHING without being aware of my form, and always have been that way, even before I knew myself as such. Some people are programmed like that, and some aren't, and it's all within varying degrees. So as a result of my hard-wire programming, either one of two things have always happened to me over the past 25 years that I've been exercising (yoga and otherwise): either I've gotten injured as a result of trying to maintain what I'd consider proper form during fast-paced activity, or I've stopped doing that activity. Simple as that. Cardio kickboxing was a prime example of the first. Needless to say, it eventually became the second as well. So now all I do is practice yoga in the Anusara style, which is a strict alignment-based practice similar to Iyengar, but allows for a slower and more mindful flow sort of class. That's what I teach as well. Not what I'd describe as a typical "Western style" flow class, though I teach at gyms under the label of "vinyasa yoga" or "advanced yoga" (the gyms' naming of the classes, NOT mine). Also, I still run. Forever aware of my form as I do that, though. I also sit, stand, walk, drive my car, hold my packages and bags, lay down to sleep, etc., all with awareness of my body's alignment at all times. I don't think I could tune out my body if I tried, 'cause it's always speaking so loudly to me. I suppose I should practice restorative yoga more toward that end, as well as get back to meditating regularly. Yeah, that would be a good thing, I know. Oh, so did I answer your question? Probably not. But I liked it, though.  |
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| I find that - as a non-beginner - it can be helpful as *I* have to focus on alignment myself, and quickly. But doing *only* that wouldn't be so good. I think it greatly depends on the individual, though, and could be a worth experiment. |
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| I understand your question I think. NO, alignment will not suffer if they take up Vinyasa practice, as long as the alignment practice is done very sincerely at other times. There is NO contradiction between alignment and vinyasa. They are actually supplementary or complimentary. The problem is : To do both is a challenge for a beginner. So, when they are done together in a single practice or in a single week, more attention or effort is needed. When continued for a prolonged time, they shall merge. Actually, that is advisable provided: you are ready for vinyasa and also whatever you are doing.
karmann - 2008-04-30 8:36 PM
I'm not asking whether you approve of vinyasa yoga per se. But I'm wondering if someone who practices alignment-focused yoga like Iyengar would somehow find their alignment suffering if they were to take a flow class once a week. Or twice a week.
I don't mean to ask if the alignment would suffer DURING the flow class. I know it does- but I mean: do you think it's likely one's overall alignment practice could or would start to slip? Assuming one still kept up the alignment practice, of course?
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| Unfortunately, many people practice vinyasa as though it were calisthenics. I think that the most important aspect of vinyasa is that you don't go any faster than you can keep good alignment in every pose. The movement (slowly and with attention) from pose to pose can be just as beneficial as the poses and should not be ignored. Life is a movement, not a static pose. The poses also need to be active, with extension/opening accompanying every inhale and relaxation/surrender accompanying every exhale. To me, a yoga asana session should be like one seamless slow motion dance, with the yogi flowering in each pose before gracefully moving to the next.
There must be union between the breath, the alignment and the movement for there to be union between the body, mind and spirit.
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Location: London, England | Hi Karmann,
Just to add, I was into Iyengar yoga for five years and found the two to be incompatible at first. Over time, I have realized that the two styles are only incompatible because of their faults-Iyengar yoga teaches form-but is the from always anatomically advantageous for the practicioner? Blatantly not. And a feature of astanga yoga is attention to movement-students are often not ready to lift throught the vinyasa safely, and probably should only be practiced after a pre-astanga course to prepare the student.
I believe that ideally, iyengar yoga would update it's ideas on what is good alignment, and that the rest of the yoga world could then use this as a benchmark. Then astanga yoga could perhaps then proceed to extend the practicioner's skill-if you can keep good alignment throughout movement, as well as throughout posture, then you are 'more advanced'- it is much more difficult to control movement than posture, neurologically.
So, to me, the answer is that assuming you align well in vinyasa, then it is indeed a valuable addition to the practice of yoga postures. Unfortunately, it's much easier to move unskillfully than to practice poetry in mortion 
Nick |
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| I wish to thank jimg and Nick for a wonderful explanation and response. Thanks a lot. |
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| I would take minor issue with Nick on the issue of the Iyengar alignment work being good for your body or not. If you find a senior enough teacher, he or she will be able to teach the appropriate adaptations for your particular body. Mr. Iyengar himself is noted for his medical classes & the therapeutic work is very individualized. The work is always growing and changing. I was just in a workshop where revolved triangle was taught with a wider stance than I previously learned - which is easier. Also a lot of foot modifications were given for people with various kinds of pain. The Ashtanga work which is the basis for the Western vinyasa flow classes does use some different alighment cues here and there but seems to me to be very similar - after all it's the same family of work (Krishnamacharya's). When I moved to vinyasa & Ashtanga practices as a supplement, I found that it was very important to soften the joints consciously while going through the flows. I also don't try to create perfect 90 degree angles with my knees, thighs and legs in some of the standing poses - I am generally working with a more open knee than I did in the Iyengar classes. (This is also because I had a knee injury.) If you are conscious while practicing of the main points of the Iyengar alignment work during the flow practice, you will protect the body. If you don't have time to set up a pose so that it works for you, take child's pose or standing forward bend for a break. Better vinyasa teachers will give alignment instructions. I like to look for a well rounded older teacher - knows good alignment & body therapy & modifications as well as how to put together flows. The younger hot dogs with a lot of enthusiasm & high levels of athletic ability are fun, but, frankly I don't want them touching me & I take what they say with a large grain of salt. Yoga is about looking within. So, if you can't look within & see what is going on with your body, you're not really practicing yoga in my opinion. It's got to feel right for you. I think vinyasa & ashtanga are a great addition to my practice. I was always short on stamina & strength. But I wouldn't do so well in those classes (for my body) if I didn't already know a lot from the Iyengar basis I had. When in doubt, go back to the source for solid help. A senior Iyengar teacher has way more in his/her bag of tricks than the average vinyasa teacher. Their training is much more rigorous & thorough. |
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| I happened to pop into an ashtanga fundamentals class (again, the root of today's Western vinyasa) & asked the teacher about getting overheated & overstimulated occasionally during the classes. He replied that in the classic home practice, it would be very early in the morning when the body is cool, AND I would be following my own natural pace in the vinjayi breathing. That should keep me from getting overheated or overstimulated. Whereas in class, it is an artificial breath pattern created by a teacher, who is usually not doing the poses along with the class. That made a lot of sense to me. (Pardon if this aside is not really on-topic.) |
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| Pardon again. I meant to say ujayi breathing. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Peggy,
That's alright, I like people taking minor issues with me, keeps me on my toes!
"Mr. Iyengar himself is noted for his medical classes & the therapeutic work is very individualized"
Maybe things have changed, but In my day, Mr Iyengar did not have any medical training, nor any medical knowledge-I believe this hasn't changed-so if he is running classes that claim to have a medical background, I would say that he is fraudulent. One of the things that made me abandon Iyengar yoga was becuase it beleives that it teaches good alignment so strongly that everyone else believes in it too-I began to discover that the rules of alignment set out by Iyengar are more appropiate to an alien species.
I believe that I may have once agreed with you, but when you listen to a true expert in human alignment, you begin to realize that much of what is promoted as common sense in the yoga world is ignorance masquarading as truth.
Nick |
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| In my practice, the vinyasa flow has helped me connect with my breath more so than a slower, alignment based asana series. Then when I return to my 'homebase' which is more Iyengar style, I find I crave the time and attention to alignment so it may even improve my alignment. Short answer - it's all yoga. |
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| Nick - 2008-05-03 11:27 PM
Hi Peggy,
but when you listen to a true expert in human alignment,
Nick
Hate to derail this thread but who would you consider a true expert in human alignment? Any references, books?
Thanks.
Vic |
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Edited by jimg 2008-05-04 10:50 PM
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| BKS Iyengar's major contribution to the development of yoga asana practice has been his emphasis on finding proper alignment, NOT defining what proper alignment is. His work with alignment is a pioneering effort, NOT the final word.
Edited by jimg 2008-05-04 11:05 PM
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| As soon as we start blindly following instead of questioning, we are seeking easy answers instead of the truth. Nobody has the "truth" as far as alignment is concerned. We are either constantly learning or we are simply repeating someone else's dogma. Only the person who says "I don't know" has the capacity to learn.
Edited by jimg 2008-05-04 10:54 PM
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| given that there are variations in human anatomy, I would offer that there isn't a single "correct" alignment. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Victw,
I would say that an expert in optimal human posture has a profound knowledge of the joints, bones, muscles, and nerves that innervate them. They can then correct an individual's alignment so as to ensure that the exercise and activities which fill that person's life or day are less likely to degenerate the joints through 'over-use, mis-use, or dis-use.'
Iyengar's teaching of alignment is not built on this knowledge, in fact, I would say that his rules of alignment appear to be built on geometry, rather than anatomy-so you need a ruler, not a doctorate, to understand his principles
It really is difficult to explain where I am coming from, I only wish you had all sat in classes with me so that we could discuss this more eloquently. I'm not sure if there's any use in giving a list of all the people in the world who I think are important to our understanding of human alignment, but I now think it's a complete joke that people in the yoga world regard him as the world leader in alignment principles-in any convention discussing good posture, he would be laughed off the stage. Hang on, you know I think that already
But if pressed, I would say that for me, people that have helped me understand human movement more than anyone else are David Maskill, Don Grieve, Stu MacGill, Craig Leibenson,
Nigel Palastanga, to name just a few. Some of these people were my tutors, others are authors or chiropractors. Each one displays a vast wealth of knowledge. Amazing folk.
I hesitate to recommend a book, because one book doesn't do it-you need a number of teachers to take you down different avenues, ideally.
Just as an exercise to try to underline my thinking, let's take supta virasana, a posture used in Iyengar yoga as well as in other forms.
Let's suppose that I am an athletic coach, and one of my athletes has been having trouble with an old back injury. We are trying to figure out why this injury has returned. Then she demonstrates this posture. I start jumping up and down The way Iyengar teaches this posture is to simply lie down on the floor or sit on a block-either way, you are not progressing into the posture by using the hips, but are progressing into the posture by putting shear forces and massive compression into the joints at the rear of the lumbar spine-both a recipe for disaster. On this single posture alone, any one who knows about the human body knows that Iyengar knows diddly squat. Yet we continue to put him on a pedestral-amazing-people will start believing in God next
I realize that many of you won't appreciate my thoughts on this subject-I can assure you, I was dismayed when I found out that Iyengar was responsible for me passing on bad movement principles both to my own body and that of my students-it's an absolute disgrace, in my opinion.
Nick |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| Nick - I am still catching up on the board so I don't have time to debate, but either things have changed in the Iyengar world or you had teachers who did not pay much attention while they were in Pune. The modifications, variations and teaching around supta virasana are legion. It is a total PITA to teach to a large class as almost everyone needs help with it. In other words, the Iyengar instructions are not simply to lie down or use a block. Got another example? |
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| Nick - 2008-05-05 3:06 AM
Just as an exercise to try to underline my thinking, let's take supta virasana, a posture used in Iyengar yoga as well as in other forms.
Let's suppose that I am an athletic coach, and one of my athletes has been having trouble with an old back injury. We are trying to figure out why this injury has returned. Then she demonstrates this posture. I start jumping up and down The way Iyengar teaches this posture is to simply lie down on the floor or sit on a block-either way, you are not progressing into the posture by using the hips, but are progressing into the posture by putting shear forces and massive compression into the joints at the rear of the lumbar spine-both a recipe for disaster.
Actually, what you describe as the Iyengar method is exactly how a senior Iyengar instructor (one who trains and does exams for other prospective Iyengar teachers) taught me NOT to do for this pose. Instead, he taught that going into the pose (and saying in it, for that matter) is a very active process, comes from the hips and thighs and front abdominals (all have to actively resist gravity) and from the work of the side abdominals to lengthen the torso as well as the correct tilt of the pelvis to avoid putting compression on the sacrum and lumbar spine. The first thing we were taught about this pose is not just to lie down on the floor.
I know that we get our knowledge of different styles approaches to different things from a wide variety of sources, and I am in no way discounting your experience. But I am curious where you were taught this as an Iyengar approach. |
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| Hey Nick: I tend to understand and also agree to what you wrote only to some extent. However, Iyengar alignment is NOT based only on Geometry. Yes, I think he wanted to perfect postures to look geometrically perfect, initially in his own case, and then may be in His instruction.
But, actually, his perfection of pose comes by watching the body as he calls or called at one time "Intelligence" flowing through the body. And, there is no doubt that awareness is fully flowing in his postures. That is NOT a forced geometric alignment.
However, I agree with some or you or whoever, that Iyengar Yoga and Medicals are two terms that should not be used together. There is NOTHING medicals.
Also, from your own posts, I shall like to state or even prove that (without any blame or loss to you) your yoga practice is possibly based on your Correct anatomical understanding. But, the lacking in this practice is Yoga is NOT an Anatomical practice. And, this statement of mine extends to more than 50 percent of posts on this board.
The problem is that Sincer Yoga Students, especially in the Western world are practicing Yoga from Body point of view and brings Anatomical discussion into picture. I am not stating that should not or that must not happen.
What I am stating is "Yoga is Beyond the Anatomy". And, therefore, usage of terms:
alignment, anatomy, physiotherapy and Yoga should not be done in a Package.
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| kulkarnn - 2008-05-05 12:34 PM
alignment, anatomy, physiotherapy and Yoga should not be done in a Package.
why? I'd like to understand the reason behind this "should" better. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Glenda and everybody,
That's great-things have changed then-but I was taught this by Kofi Busia amongst others-a senior Iyengar teacher who now teaches in America. Here's a few pictures of the pose-all done in a most untherapeutic manner for the low back:
http://tinyurl.com/6olujc
Can you point me to any articles/pictures detailing the modern way of practicing this asana?
I guess another example might be triangle, or twisted triangle-in triangle, the emphasis on keeping the two hip joint in alignment with the legs, rather than mobilizing the hip joints to prevent hyper-extension of the lumbar spine, and in twisted triangle, where the lumbar spine is flexed and the SI joints are de-stabilized-of course, these observations are only from my own experience, but nothing I've seen lately corrects my views (I'm hard to please )
Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Neel,
I see your points, but surely, if we don't make the most of antomical knowledge, then isn't our yoga practice going to be less than beneficial to our physical health, which will then affect our spiritual well-being-I mean, I know hatha yoga has it's own aims and objectives outside of the physical realm, but we are using this realm as a vehicle to spiritual 'health?'
So, in my view, it is important not to use this spiritual aspect of yoga to disguise the fact that if we do our practice in a way that is not conducive to optimum health, it has no bearing on the spiritual objectives. For instance, one of the features of samadha is a sensory flood of the central nervous system-so, in my classes, I use my knowledge of the body's joints and muscles to give the student the greatest amount of nerve conduction from specific joints and muscles (proprioception)-thereby, hopefully, aiding their path to those bliss states. Ialso use my knowledge of nerve receptors which are responsible for noiciception (pain signals) to teach asana in a way which does not stimulate these receptors. Proprioception not noiciception!
Nick |
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Vinyasa-detrimental?
