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| Is there a method in Iyengar style that deals with a lack of sufficient cervical curve for sirsasana I? In addition to having a "flat neck", I also have cervical osteoarthritis, and probably one has developed as the result of the other (though I really have no idea which is the chicken and which is the egg -- nor does it matter at this point anyhow). I do sleep with a cervical neck roll and no other pillow, which I've been doing since I was first diagnosed with the arthritis close to 7 years ago. The difficulties that I experience when in sirsasana I (though never in sirsasana II, or any other pose anymore) is a creaking instability in my lowerback, right where my lumbar and sacrum meet. No matter how much I engage my core and work my shoulders down into my torso, I never feel secure or relaxed in this pose, and balancing away from the wall is nearly impossible for me. As a comparison, I can lift up into sirsanasa II from a straddle forward bend in the middle of the room with no issues at all. Recently I thought perhaps it's because my neck doesn't have much curve -- and so when I tried to "engage" a cervical curve in my headstand, the painful lowback creaking and grinding stopped. I was able to balance and it almost felt "easy". But I was only able to sustain that neck curve for a moment or two. So does Iyengar say to stay away from headstand if one cannot maintain a curve in one's neck without labored effort? I know the precautions of a flat neck in shoulderstand, and always make sure to use blankets and try to lift up my neck away from the floor to create a bit of that curve. I can sort of do it better in that pose, but in headstand it's a lot harder because of the positioning. Thanks in advance! |
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Location: London, England | Hi Om,
I don't know what Iyengar says, but I would discourage you very strongly from practicing headstand-I would personally refuse to teach it to you. I would imagine any decent teacher would-not just because of fears for your health and safety, but because of the possibility of litigation. I someone came to me with cervical osteoarthritis demanding to be taught headstand, I would ask the question of whether they are serial litigants.
Having said that, I don't teach headstand with the head on the floor, and so have no problem with either a lack of cervical curve or excessive cervical curve.
As you know, sufferers of osteo-arthritis can benefit greatly from aquatic training, and other non-weight-bearing exercises-so the question is, why have you chosen to practice a weight-bearing exercise, where you bear weight on the affected portion of your body-and it's even worse-the cervical spine is not designed to bear the weight of the body, only the head, and the posture is a balance, making the dangers even worse.
I'm doing what I can to scare you so you stop, I could easily go on and fill a book on the headstand.
I agree that the creaking instability you feel in your low back may be related to the loss of cervical lordosis-I seem to remember you get SI joint pain? I often used to see patients with cervical injuries leading to loss of lordosis, who had a corresponding excessive curvature of the lumbar spine, often leading to shear forces and pain in the SI/lumbo-sacral joints.
Take care
Nick |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| Hi OM - I won't try to scare you like nick did, but I"m a little scared myself!  Just to be really clear, sirsasana I is with hands cupped around the head and II is the tripod, with hands on the floor. I find SII is more restful (that is the best word I can think of to describe it) on my neck as well so I suspect that the culprit for me is tight shoulders as much as anything else. I also find it easier to get the lumbar area long in II.
Some Iyengar answers - use a head standing bench, chairs or do rope sirsasana. The best answer would be to defer you to a teacher with a great deal more experience than I have. There are ways to position the head on the floor (a little more toward the forehead than the top of the head) that do "correct" for the lack of a cervical curve. I don't feel I have anywhere near the level of experience needed to deal with that, though, so I would not want you doing headstand in my class. I do, however, have many folks do all the preparatory work, which some people call dolphin pose, without putting the head on the floor. A very experienced student who had been taught by one of the senior teachers would be ok with me to do the pose as they have been taught if they knew what they were doing, but personally, I don't want to be responsible for dealing with that level of neck issues at this point in my teaching. |
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| My own view would be that you should avoid this pose completely and use other inversions that don't place any weight on the neck. If you must do it, then I would think that the chair/rope modification above would be best as the head is left floating free in these versions.
Fiona
Edited by Orbilia 2008-04-10 11:00 AM
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| Hi Nick, Thanks for the scare tactics, I really enjoyed them.  Actually, I'm pretty much in agreement with you on all this, and when I practice on my own, I rarely choose to practice this headstand -- I just don't like it, it doesn't feel good to my body, 'nuff said. But I can't be the only one with a flat neck, can I? It's when it's called for in class that I'm concerned about. When you say "head off the floor", is that just a hair's breadth away or much higher? Do you mean practicing pincha mayurasana with the sirsasana I handclasp? Oh and yes, my S/I instability is all but licked these days, as I've gotten much more diligent with my alignment and muscular engagement. The only place it shows up as an issue anymore is with this headstand. Life's been good.  I think the answer I seek is more in the way of yoga therapeutics to reintroduce more curvature in the neck. Yes, I've been instructed to position my head so that the hairline is more on the floor than the crown, as tourist mentioned, but that doesn't always alleviate the problem, nor even prevent it. tourist, there are no Iyengar teachers or schools around my area, which is why I voiced my question here. There was one school locally, which I believe I had mentioned I had tried out a number of months ago, but it has since closed. And even when I told that teacher that I have "troubles" in headstand, he didn't caution me from trying the pose. In fact, he encouraged me, as have most of my other teachers, saying that it's "good for the neck". When I first started my yoga journey years ago with YogaFit, they said flat out "if you have neck issues, don't do headstand" and that was that. Just goes to show that wisdom DOES come from all places. Oh and thanks also, Nick, for confirming the neck to S/I connection from a structural point of view. Again, that was also more of what I was asking in my original post. As for which originally caused which? Probably not important. |
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| Hi tourist -- thanks for your suggestions; and please don't worry, I won't be making you teach me headstand any time soon! Regarding your dolphin pose suggestion, I'm wondering if it's just something about the hands-clasped position that makes my shoulders tighter than the regular parallel forearms position of pincha mayurasana. I did have surgery on my right shoulder a number of years ago and that has structurally limited my range of motion on that side, specifically in terms of external rotation. OK, just did a quick little (neck friendly!) test: ardha uttanasana with my forearms on a wall, head not on the wall (obviously) but pressing UP to lengthen the neck and encourage the proper cervical curve. When my forearms were parallel to each other, both my shoulders felt engaged. When I went to clasp my hands in that same L-shape position, the bottom dropped out: lowback was unhappy, right shoulderblade winged out, and even though my head wasn't touching the wall, my neck didn't feel right either. Must be the arm position, in combination with all my other issues (shoulder, neck and lowback). Whaddaya think? |
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Location: London, England | Hi Om,
Well, when I say 'head off the floor,' I mean the skull isn't weight bearing-I do this by clasping the hands, palms together, rather than the usual technique of interlocking the fingers and putting the palms of the hands on the back of the skull, which is a bit like using a wedge to stop the head rolling. When the head is pulled from the floor by the adjustment of having the palms together, then the cervical spine is held in tension by the weight of the head, and I use this tension in order to find neck alignment-a bit like offering neck traction.
Nick
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| Thanks for the explanation, Nick. I've never had my palms on the back of my head, but rather the base of the thumbs/heel of the hands against the crown of my head, thumbs tips touching to keep the hands open but secure. In the prep as I just tried it now (hips lifted as in dog pose), I feel more of the crown of my head pressing into my hands than my head pressing into the floor. Maybe I just can't engage length in my neck in this position at all? I think I'm going to stick with pincha and handstand as my inversions, and call it a day! |
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| Tourist is correct. There are different ways to angle your head.
Nick is correct, too. You head does not need to touch the ground at all. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Om,
Yes, I think that the hand position you mention is the one that is usually taught. I should have been more specific.
As for the crown of the head pessing into the hands, it still means yor neck is weight-bearing, no? So at the same time that you are trying to find length in the neck, you are compressing it.
It must be better to encourage tension by introducing tension, rather than compression. So the posture becomes an encouragement to hold good posture and superb movement capabilities, both hallmarks of a refined yoga practice.
But like you say, maybe it's better to stick to handstands and pinch mayurasana, although these do have a tendency for students to cheat by over-using the neck, rather than extending the thoracic spine, which in most people, is the stiffest, most useless part of the spine, but one that masks its uselessness by forcing over-use into the lumbar and cervical spine, so they become the source of most people's back pain. Not fair, really
Nick |
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| Hello Om,
I want to be clear that I'm responding to you and your original post. It is not my intention to engage or enrage the opinions already set forth, though I may touch on an item or two from those additions.
You ask a multi-part question. So one answer from me would not meet you half way. Bear in mind I am presuming you, the student, has the appropriate access and action with the serratus anterior. If you do not then it would not be appropriate for me to take you into Sirsasana, Pincha Mayurasana, Adho Mukha Vrksasana, et al.
For a student with arthritis (of any sort) in the cervical spine, the effects of sirsasana are still important but I would have that student up in the pose using two chairs. The cervical spine would be in traction and there would obviously NOT be any weight-bearing on the head whatsoever.
For the student with a military neck the head placement in sirsasana is altered. Instead of the front fontanel, the placement point is more toward the hairline or top of the forehead.
For the student with both I would use the chairs first, address the arthritis, then, over time, re-evaluate that work to determine if the student could begin to do Sirsasana on the floor again. I continue to only concern myself with student safety. I do not find placing mental energy in litigation, lawsuits, injury and carelessness to be very productive states of mind.
Edited by purnayoga 2008-04-10 6:06 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| OM - the ardha uttanasana system is what Mr. Tourist uses. He has vertigo issues as well as extremely limited forward bending capacity (not to mention flat out refusing to do things that he considers yoga torture, of which headstand is #1  ) It would be good to see you in that pose and get an idea of what is going on. Sure sounds like shoulder stuff to me. |
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| Serratus anterior, yes, thank you. Left side, full access and and able to engage at will. Right side, not so good. Sometimes, with enough attention applied to it during yoga class, it'll do it's job and I'll finally have the freedom on both sides as I'm supposed to (imagine lifting fully into urdhva dhanurasana and my right hand not reaching the floor, it's that inhibited). But that freedom doesn't last from one day to the next. The prep work I do for pincha mayurasana tends to open that area for me, and handstand does it as well, so I guess I need to be more conscientious about working those actions in my daily practice. But will that help with my neck? Separate issue, I think. More to think about. Thanks Purna, for your comments. |
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Location: London, England |
Edited by Nick 2008-04-11 3:12 AM
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| OrangeMat - 2008-04-10 5:02 PM
The prep work I do for pincha mayurasana tends to open that area for me, and handstand does it as well, so I guess I need to be more conscientious about working those actions in my daily practice. But will that help with my neck? Separate issue, I think. More to think about. Thanks Purna, for your comments.
I don't know what that work is or that area. However therapeutics for the neck, other than the aforementioned Sirsasana 'tween the chairs, is a completely different protocol. Another question altogether, yes. |
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| So we were instructed to do several variations of sirsasana I in class today, and for once, I completely abstained. I stayed in the prep for a while, trying to lengthen my neck, keep my back and shoulders engaged, heart melting, all that. Eventually, I just hung out in child's pose (got a headcold today anyhow, so it's just as well). I did speak to my teacher after class, and mentioned the issues I have, and we've now scheduled some time for a private at the end of next week. I'll keep y'all posted. Purna, as for your questions: the prep for pincha mayurasana is when your forearms are on the floor but your lower body is in downward facing dog. Dolphin, I believe it's called. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Om,
Abstinence is good! Now, most people wouldn't go for this, but you seem like the kind of gal who might I've mentioned the 'back revolution' here before, it's an inversion machine like no other. In my opinion, all yoga centres should have a row of these in all classes-it makes inversion very safe, and has the added advantage that rather than pushing oneself away from the floor ( which then has the potential to cause muscles above the shoulder joint to contract-upper trapezius, levator scapulae, rhomboids, These muscles can then be considered as anti-gravity muscles-in real life, this is a very bad thing-you don't want these muscles to dominate your posture ), the muscles which pull the shoulder blades in and down (retraction and depression), become anti-gravity, postural muscles-so that when you stand upright again, the optimal spine and shoulder position is more of a likelyhood.
You can find it here:
http://www.backrevolution.com/
And no, I don't have the franchise
Nick |
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| Interesting device Nick thank you for the link.
Similar to work in the wall ropes. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Gordon,
Well, Ive tried wall ropes and wasn't impressed-within a second of coming off this thing my money was on the counter
nick |
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| I have been working with a chiropractor for a lack of cervical curve (seriously, I had a 0deg curve) and a forward head posture. After talking to him - and demonstrating - he decided that headstand (with forearms on the floor, not tripod, as that's my preferred method), was fine for me to do as long as I was not putting much weight on my head, kept proper posture, and it wasn't hurting me. (And I was doing all the rest of my posture exercises. ;) ) Of course, that is not even discussing the osteoarthritis, which is a whole additional - and significant - issue.
The real point of the story I want to make, just to be crystal clear, is that you should have someone who is WELL TRAINED to deal with these sorts of issues examine and work with YOU specifically. I probably wouldn't even work with most yoga teachers (exclusively) on this one, 'cause even they don't have x-ray vision.  There's no substitute for extensive anatomy and physiology training being specifically applied to your physical condition in a case like this.
Interestingly, I've regained a good portion of the curve (~60-70%, iirc) in my cervical spine through posture exercises and traction (I get almost no adjustments on my neck - outside of whiplash from a skiing accident last weekend, I've gotten two in a year and a half), and it's made sirsasana feel not significantly different. Mildly more stable, but with the *vast* majority of my weight bearing coming through my shoulders into my rib cage, it mostly just has reduced the 'head rush' I get when coming down. If anything, it's helped me mentally focus on maintaining proper shoulder/torso form coming into and out of the pose, where I found it all too easy to let weight drop into my head/neck. |
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| Hello to all peaceful warriors, practicing and teaching Sirshasana,
Please! And with all due respect. Let us not forget that a Headstand is actually an “arm stand.” In the beginning especially, there should only be as much weight loaded into the neck as the head weighs - about 20 to 25 lbs. Makes sense, doesn’t it? One must be strong enough to hold full bodyweight off the floor (minus the 20 to 25 lbs.) before practicing full Headstand. Is that you? If not, there is no need to attempt it.
A very common misconception about Headstand is that it’s a stacking of one’s full bodyweight onto the cervical spine. Nothing could be further from the truth. Many people are capable of balancing on their head in this way. Except for the most advanced yogis, THIS IS NOT SIRSHASANA! For this reason one should NEVER practice Headstand against the wall. Nor should there be any jumping or kicking-up from the floor if one is freestanding. This is evidence of a one who is not ready. (My apologies to those of you who teach people in this way.)
Head placement is also extremely critical. You should have only a qualified, practicing instructor help and correct you every step of the way. Don’t practice headstand without a teacher!!!
How do you build proper strength and form? Several months of Leg Lifts, Dolphin Pushups and then Half-Headstand, at least 2 to 3 months. Master the Half-Headstand before moving on to full Sirshasana. Not only will you gain the exact same benefit as you would in full Headstand, but you'll build the strength and form to do it right. When you're ready.
In general, do not take this most delicate of asanas lightly. If you are a beginning student, see that yoga is your proper path, one that you are meant to follow, seek a qualified instructor, and practice steadily for at least one year before attempting Headstand.
DON’T RUSH THE HEADSTAND!
Peace and Blessings,
Emil Schlee
A.K.A. SIVA
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| Very strong points outlined by our new friend Emil above. I am always relieved to find others advocating safe asana practice. Thank goodness. Welcome Emil!
Preparations and actions (present in the student) for Sirsasana are very important.
There are however two elements which I'd like to add.
The first, for accuracy sake, is the weight of the head. According to the Department of Anatomy and Histology at the University of Sydney, the adult human head, when severed at C3, weighs between 9 and 11 pounds or 4.5 - 5kg for my european cohorts. That is without hair, by the by :-)
The second is the great care we as yogis must use around the word "never" and "always". They are very dangerous words to use in the yogic context as they invite dogma.
Edited by purnayoga 2008-04-24 12:38 PM
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| Question about what's considered to be Dolphin Pose: are the hands clasped as in Sirsasana or forearms parallel as in Pincha Mayurasana? |
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| Dolphin Pushups are perfomred with hands clasped, as in Sirsasana: exhaling forward, inhaling as you pull up and back (from the tailbone). The head stays down.
Note:
Measure the distance between the elbows first (elbows to fingertips) and plant them firmly so they don't spread apart (as in sirshasana). Don't slump. Stay tall in the shoulder. End on the upstroke with inhalation. Exhale the knees to the floor and back into child's pose.
Don't overdo it. Be gentle. It's very powerful.
Siva
P.S. Sorry for my heavy head. Thank you for the correction. It means you have to be even stronger. |
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Location: London, England | Hi there,
I would say that different forms of yoga teach both methods, and that I can see nothing wrong with practicing either-both are valuable-although I would say that palms flat on the floor is more advanced, done properly-it's obviously much harder to hang on to the floor than it is to squeeze the hands
Nick |
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flat neck and headstand
