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Great beings and sex
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Ram
Posted 2008-03-03 11:24 AM (#104317)
Subject: Great beings and sex


It just dawned on me the other day and in discussion with a close spiritual friend that many great beings have been accused of sexually inappropriate behavour. Most guru's claim to live a celibate life and advocate maintaining your sexual fluids.

At the same time Mahershi Mahesh, Ghandi and my favourite Baba Mutkananda have all been accused to sexually exploiting women. I wonder the truth of these accusations or do they go hand in hand with being a great adhuvat? People may want to discredit these great beings. At the same time I dont want to be nieve and discount the possibilities that they to have sacummed to the power of sex.

How do you feel about this.
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kulkarnn
Posted 2008-03-03 11:43 AM (#104321 - in reply to #104317)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


Dear Ram: Very good question. Thank you. The only person whose words you should trust about such accussation about great people is the ONE who is accussed himself or herself. But, the probelm is that you must have trust in that accused person's words. And, unfortunately, that trust has to be more than the trust in the great being you quoted. And, you should never trust the words of foolish media who have nothing to do with spirituality.
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Posted 2008-03-03 2:32 PM (#104349 - in reply to #104321)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


Are the words of these "great beings" useful to you right now? If so, what difference does it make what they did or did not do. You don't actually know them anyway. You only know them by their words. If these words are helpful to you on your path, great. If not, it really doesn't matter what the details of their lives are or were.

Great beings are "great" if their words help you find your self, right now. You can only actually know these "great beings" in your imagination, which is entirely self-generated. Your ideas about people that you don't know are something that you choose to make up, based on incomplete accounts of their lives from other people, each with a point of view and a positive or negative judgement.

If the message is godly, what difference does it make if the messenger was human?

Eat the meal, don't worship the menu!!!
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GreenJello
Posted 2008-03-03 2:34 PM (#104351 - in reply to #104321)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


kulkarnn - 2008-03-03 11:43 AM

And, you should never trust the words of foolish media who have nothing to do with spirituality.


Ding ding ding.... We have a winner. The media in this country is controlled by about 5 corporations. They wield enormous amounts of power to put whatever spin they want upon every day events. So when some sort of scandal comes along, you should keep in mind that there's probably something more important you could be doing than worrying about things that are beyond your control.

As far as scandals in ashrams and the like go, it's true even the greatest among us are human, and are going to screw up from time to time, sometimes greatly. Unfortunately, the greater the person, the more potential for damage.

If you're really interested in this topic, I'd suggest reading "Yoga and the Quest for the True Self" by Stephen Cope. In addition to be a great book on yoga, he also deals with the issues around just this sort of controversy at an American ashram.
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Ram
Posted 2008-03-03 2:48 PM (#104352 - in reply to #104321)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


kulkarnn - 2008-03-03 11:43 AM

Dear Ram: Very good question. Thank you.

The only person whose words you should trust about such accussation about great people is the ONE who is accussed himself or herself. But, the probelm is that you must have trust in that accused person's words. And, unfortunately, that trust has to be more than the trust in the great being you quoted.

And, you should never trust the words of foolish media who have nothing to do with spirituality.

.


No doubt about it. I dont trust anything in the media. I posed the question simply to see if others have contemplated this issue. I myself came to the conclusion that I can only validate my own experiences with the particular guru or practise (in this case Mutkananda and Siddha yoga). It has been nothing but a pure blessing and I have had nothing but positive experiences (and I mean real experiences that I cannot deny).
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Ram
Posted 2008-03-03 2:52 PM (#104354 - in reply to #104349)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


jimg - 2008-03-03 2:32 PM

Are the words of these "great beings" useful to you right now? If so, what difference does it make what they did or did not do.QUOTE]

Actually it does make a difference what they do. Spoken words are one thing. But you have to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. Their are many false guru's out there. In Siddha yoga, my practise, nobody ever tells you to blindly do anything. You must validate the authenticity of your spiritual master. If you feel it in your heart and your experiences then you can validate it. Ohterwise they are just empty words. Perhaps you misinterpreted what I meant when I posed the question. Most great beings come under attack. Its part of the world we live in.
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Posted 2008-03-03 3:12 PM (#104359 - in reply to #104354)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


ram,
Don't confuse the message with the messenger. Great truths can be spoken by children and idiots. The truth is in the message. Your experiences are a result of the message, not the positive or negative things that people say about the messenger.
Namaste,
jimg
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Posted 2008-03-05 1:24 PM (#104433 - in reply to #104359)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


Instead of focusing on great beings and sex,

try focusing on being

and great sex.
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asananow
Posted 2008-03-05 10:19 PM (#104451 - in reply to #104317)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


Good article related to putting gurus on a pedestal: http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1995/1/1995-1-06.shtml

I don't remember where I found this link, so perhaps it has already been shared in these forums.  If so I humbly apologize for repeating uncredited and thank you.  If not, it may be somewhat dated (1995) but the message really spoke to me.   When following a spiritual path (or any path I suppose) it is reassuring to have leaders to show the way.  When those leaders don't match our expectations, what kind of doubt does it throw on their message?  I've chosen to go the same route as Zoebird and others - focus on the message more than the messenger. 

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gauri
Posted 2008-03-06 12:47 AM (#104457 - in reply to #104317)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


Many times people make "non great" a "great" being. Who will decide whethwer a person is great or not? Most of the times followers of such person generate impression (or hype) around their Guru and start calling him "Self-realized" or something. The fact is that no one gets a certificate of being self-realized. This also underlines an important fact - Even when you make great spiritual progress there is always a danger of degredation. One should be very careful even if he is advanced practitioner. If someone is taking wrong benefits under the name of "Vajroli" that person doesn't understand the true essense of Yoga. Also, I feel some of them get a wrong impression that "God is working through them". Such a state is extremely rare and most of the times they are under some illusion.

When I read such examples I bow down again and again to souls such as Ramakrishna Paramahansa who was so modest and humble and always suggested to be free from "Kamini" and "Kanchana". Not only that through out his life he demonstrated these principles. He practiced Tantra and at one point when he was asked to sit in the lap of a Kumari for certain mystic rituala went straight into Samadhi chanting the name of his Mother.

Focussing on message is ok but it makes difference (at least to me) as to who is giving it. It is like that - once a scientist was giving lecture saying that Vitamin C cures cold. While delivering this lecture he himself was sneezing and suffering from heavy cold. No body took his lecture seriously

Further, if message alone matters then there are ample scriptures available (Vedas, Upanishads, Gita, Yoga texts etc.) who give great message to mankind so why do we still need Gurus then.





Edited by gauri 2008-03-06 12:52 AM
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GreenJello
Posted 2008-03-06 9:16 AM (#104473 - in reply to #104317)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


Interesting link Jenifer, I really liked it.
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tourist
Posted 2008-03-06 10:10 AM (#104482 - in reply to #104473)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex



Expert Yogi

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That would be Jennifer. Jenifer is someone else.
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Ram
Posted 2008-03-06 11:59 AM (#104489 - in reply to #104359)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


jimg - 2008-03-03 3:12 PM

ram,
Don't confuse the message with the messenger. Great truths can be spoken by children and idiots. .
Namaste,
jimg


No doubt great truths can be spoken by "idiots" and children but I'm talking about realized beings that are currently walking this earth. Some are more formal teachers and others just blend into the world. It's a blessing to come across a authentic guru to guide us on the path. To think you can do it by yourself is a bit delusional.

The thread by the way is about great beings and accusations of sexual misconduct. Just thought I would put it out there for discussion.



Edited by Ram 2008-03-06 12:15 PM
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Posted 2008-03-06 12:11 PM (#104490 - in reply to #104457)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


gauri - 2008-03-05 9:47 PM

Further, if message alone matters then there are ample scriptures available (Vedas, Upanishads, Gita, Yoga texts etc.) who give great message to mankind so why do we still need Gurus then.



Very good question!!!

My answer:

The system of guru (teacher) and followers was developed in ancient times as a way of passing information to others. It was based on the absolute authoritarian political/power structure of king (raja) and subjects as well as master and apprentice in the trades and father and family in the home. Since there were no printed books, no internet, and most people lived in villages, the only way to learn something was to find a teacher. From ancient times until the modern era, the king, the teacher, and the father were absolute authorities. This type of authority frequently leads to abuse and corruption because the authority figure has no feedback and the follower has only one point of view available.

This system is now obsolete, as millions of printed books, the internet, and global travel are available to us. Since the relationship between follower and guru encourages dependency and exploitation, the only reason to follow a guru today is to give your responsibilities to another. We all need teachers, but we need various points of view and to think for ourselves to grow. Otherwise, we are like mistletoe growing on an oak tree. The mistletoe gets all its nourishment from the oak and eventually kills it and they both die.

The reason that you need a guru is because the guru told you so. You think that the guru has something and you want it too. If the guru actually has anything, he/she found it on their own and you must too.

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Ram
Posted 2008-03-06 12:38 PM (#104492 - in reply to #104317)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


People misundertand what a guru really is. The ego is so puffed up it will automatically reject the concept of a guru.Spiritual ego is huge and is no different then any other form of ego. The real truth is having a guru or spiritual master will help you become more independent and think for yourself. The truth is we are conditioned beings restricted by our negative emotions and the world we live in.

The scriptures speak of the "truth". But they are very difficult to interpret. They were written a long time ago and often are spoken in parables. Hence guru or spiritual master is valueble in teaching about the scriptures. Our minds benefit from an association with a human form representing our own consciousness. When people bow down to a guru they are not bowing to the human form of the person. They are bowing to the representation of their own consciousness. Doing so is humbling.

The key is finding an authentic guru. A true guru never asks for or uses car salesman techniques to bring in followers. Its up to each person to authenticate a guru or spiritual master.

Edited by Ram 2008-03-06 12:40 PM
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Posted 2008-03-06 1:05 PM (#104496 - in reply to #104492)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


Following a guru is egotistical. You are trying to GET something from another person for yourself. This is desire. Seeking enlightenment or self-realization for yourself is egotism and desire. This is not being humble, it is being greedy. Yes, we can all learn from others, but once you become a follower, you are no longer authentic, you become a superficial imitation. Growth comes from the inside, not the outside. Yes, many external factors influence that growth, but it is still internal.

There are great teachers everywhere. Once you follow a particular guru or path, you no longer see them. They can be a tree, a bird, a sunset, music or other people. Don't close yourself to the infinite that is all around you right now because of the egotistical desire to GET something that only exists in your imagination.
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kulkarnn
Posted 2008-03-06 1:14 PM (#104497 - in reply to #104317)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


Hey jimg: I already gave my input to answer the original question. Here I am only making a comment on what you wrote earlier.

While there is some truth in what you wrote, actually your statement is generally not true.

The Term Guru is used in two contexts. One is colloquial language including social aspects as well as knowledge in a secular way. Here the Guru means an exceptional teacher or accomplished teacher of a particular subject.

The second usage is in Spirituality. Of course, this applies to only those who trust in that path and are trying something on that path. This meaning has NOTHING TO do with expert in a secular learning such as music, etc.

What Ram is writing/asking about is the Second Type of Guru. It is not good to mix up the meanings, causing confusion.

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Ram
Posted 2008-03-06 1:33 PM (#104499 - in reply to #104496)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


jimg - 2008-03-06 1:05 PM

Following a guru is egotistical. You are trying to GET something from another person for yourself. This is desire. Seeking enlightenment or self-realization for yourself is egotism and desire. This is not being humble, it is being greedy. Yes, we can all learn from others, but once you become a follower, you are no longer authentic, you become a superficial imitation..


Seeking elightenment is egotistical? LOL that is funny.

When I went to college I studied under my professors to learn. I didnt pretend to know it all. Some were better then others but only after much study did I realize who was authentic and who wasnt. Its important again like I have stated that you authenticate yourself your spiritual master or teacher. Sometimes your ego is so big though you dont think you need any type of teachers. You prefer "idiots" or the internet.
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Posted 2008-03-06 1:50 PM (#104501 - in reply to #104497)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


I am trying to differentiate between LEARNING from a teacher and FOLLOWING another individual. The difference is in your relationship to that person. Following another (whether spiritual or secular) leads to dependency and exploitation. Learning leads to knowledge.

A person who is learning is open to learning from sources everywhere. A person who is following has limited themself to a single source that may be more of a projection of that person's desires than anything else. Once a person becomes a follower, they no longer have any frame of reference from which to determine what is real or valid.


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Posted 2008-03-06 7:18 PM (#104509 - in reply to #104499)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


Ram - 2008-03-06 10:33 AM

Seeking elightenment is egotistical? LOL that is funny.



Who is seeking enlightenment? Who are they seeking it for? What is the difference between seeking and desire?

What does contentment (as in Patanjali eight limbs, Niyama-santosha) mean to you? To me, it means really enjoying what I have (joy) instead of lusting after what I don't have (desire), no matter how noble sounding that goal (enlightenment) may sound. If I cannot fully enjoy my current state, why do I think that I will be able to enjoy some imagined state in the future?

Is lusting after enlightenment better than lusting after sex or money (or even chocolate)?
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Cyndi
Posted 2008-03-06 8:08 PM (#104510 - in reply to #104501)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex



Expert Yogi

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jimg - 2008-03-06 1:50 PM

I am trying to differentiate between LEARNING from a teacher and FOLLOWING another individual. The difference is in your relationship to that person. Following another (whether spiritual or secular) leads to dependency and exploitation. Learning leads to knowledge.

A person who is learning is open to learning from sources everywhere. A person who is following has limited themself to a single source that may be more of a projection of that person's desires than anything else. Once a person becomes a follower, they no longer have any frame of reference from which to determine what is real or valid.




I totally agree with this Jim. I speak from a place of someone who has been a follower at times of my life. Only to end up back at square one. So...the day I started learning is the day my mind opened up and lo and behold.."I saw the light"...no pun intended of course,

As for the sex thing...sex is just an action that can be performed to assist someone or a couple doing the act, in obtaining a higher experience. Hence the practice...Kamasutra, the art of love making. It's a secret though and should not be discussed about.
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Posted 2008-03-06 8:12 PM (#104511 - in reply to #104510)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


Don't worry Cyndi, I won't tell the secret part!
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Cyndi
Posted 2008-03-06 8:23 PM (#104512 - in reply to #104511)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex



Expert Yogi

Posts: 5098
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC
Okay....but, darnit...it sure would be fun to discuss about it...anyone care to dare first, Hey Fee?? BB?? what's ya'll's input on this?? I want to hear the great wise ones first,

Edited by Cyndi 2008-03-06 8:24 PM
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Ram
Posted 2008-03-07 11:30 AM (#104527 - in reply to #104509)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


jimg - 2008-03-06 7:18 PM

Ram - 2008-03-06 10:33 AM

Seeking elightenment is egotistical? LOL that is funny.



Who is seeking enlightenment? Who are they seeking it for? What is the difference between seeking and desire?

What does contentment (as in Patanjali eight limbs, Niyama-santosha) mean to you? To me, it means really enjoying what I have (joy) instead of lusting after what I don't have (desire), no matter how noble sounding that goal (enlightenment) may sound. If I cannot fully enjoy my current state, why do I think that I will be able to enjoy some imagined state in the future?

Is lusting after enlightenment better than lusting after sex or money (or even chocolate)?


Many times I have read the only desire you should have is the desire for enlightenment. Part of enjoying what I have or living in the moment is by burning my negative emotions in the fire of meditation. How can you possibly fully live in the moment without doing some work on the mind and engaging in spiritual practises. I guess its possible but not for me.

I think your very confused by what it means to experience your true divinity. You think its some sort of ego trip. Perhaps you have never had a spiritual experience?
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Ram
Posted 2008-03-07 11:32 AM (#104528 - in reply to #104501)
Subject: RE: Great beings and sex


jimg - 2008-03-06 1:50 PM

I am trying to differentiate between LEARNING from a teacher and FOLLOWING another individual.



I like the budhist philosophy of unlearning. Empty the bucket instead of filling it with more and more. Dry learning will get you nowhere but have more things to brag about to your friends. (spiritual ego).
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