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| However, Every teacher has to teach from a place of honesty and if a prenatal teacher honestly believes that inversions, deep twists or deep backbends are not the best pose for prenatal women, based on her training and her self-study, then how is that being fearful. Wouldn't it be more dishonest to teach poses that your training, your own personal physical experience, and your gut instinct tells you are not the best ideas?
i absolutely agree with you here. that is why i said, from the onset and in response to the OP, that if you feel that it is wrong for pregnant women to be in your class, then you inform them of this and perhaps provide them with alternatives.
i think it is perfectly ok to say "this is why i don't teach this posture" and in particular if it comes from training, experience, and the process that you see with your students. it is an honest, reliable approach.
but, what i am taking issue with is certain perspectives--such as across the board contraindications such that all teachers must fall in line with this mode of thinking about pregnancy rather than the teacher-student relationship and the individual's knowledge of yoga, the body, and that student's need being the underlying practice.
and, i take issue, in general, with how our culture views pregnancy as a medical condition, or as a delicate/difficult condition, rather than a position of strength and growth, and something compltely normal and healthy that a woman and baby go through, while simultaneously recognizing that for 3-5% of the population, the venture may be very risky for very specific reasons, and when a person is at risk, then the yoga practiced (or whatever practiced) is adapted to meet that risk.
being a pregnant woman currently, i'm frustrated that i'm treated like an invalid, or that another yoga teacher (prenatal, teaches with me) goes apoplectic when i demonstrate crow pose or sun salutations for my students, even though i know full well what is good for my body right now and what isn't, and i have for a very, very long time. . .and she's going on what her book/training taught her, rather than on whatever our relationship is or may be (we don't have much of one, and i'm more experienced than her in yoga and in teaching so she's really one of my students), and so she's reacting in fear when she sees me do these things, rather than being open to why i may be an exception to that contraindication, etc.
this isn't to say that i'm dictating to her that she must teach what i am doing--because i do think that would be dangerous and dishonest largely because it is beyond her scope--but rather that we must have the openness to recognize that not everyone is the same, and therefore the needs themselves are not the same.
again, i agree that deep back bends can have that issue with lordosis, DR, and a variety of other issues--and they should be utilized only by those who need/require them. afterall, you don't need stitches when you scrape your knee, right?
same with postures. sometimes a basic one will do exactly what it needs to, but other times, that posture is not what is required by that student, and something more challenging or commonly contraindicated is.
and when that's the case, we shouldn't be afraid to use it, just because we commonly wouldn't. |
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| just to give another example, that has nothing to do with prenatal yoga but illustrates the concern that i have regarding yoga teaching, i'll talk about a teacher around here.
he's a good teacher. sivananda yoga tradition, focuses predominently on philosophy and meditation in his teaching. he sees asana as just something to do to prep for meditation. no alignment focus at all, just very gentle stretching (reach over head, fold forward, a bunch of seated postures, cat/cow, etc) for about 30 mintes and then you listen to a 30 minute philosophy lecture and then do a 15 mintue meditation. he has a PhD in divinity and studied yoga in india.
now, he once came to one of my classes and after class felt he needed to give me some "constructive criticism" which then became a diatribe about why i should never, ever teach head stand and should always be very, very careful with shoulderstand because of compression of the neck.
now, it is true that shoulderstand and headstand can be risky and that students can compress their necks. but this doesn't mean that shoulderstand and headstand should per se be abandoned.
what is means is that students need to be taught how to do these postures properly, which includes doing postures that will help "build up" their ability to do these postures properly in addition to teachign modifications to these postures that can help them learn how to do them properly, and then, when they do the postures, they do it without neck compression.
i am very cautious about this with my students and always have been, neck injuries are a mess, and i know that i don't want my students to have to deal with that at all.
but, does that mean that avoiding teaching that posture--ever--is the real answer?
for this other teacher--again a good teacher and great guy--that is the answer. he just feels it's too risky, that it's too difficult to teach, and that people might injure themselves so you might as well avoid it.
and i can say, go ahead and do that, Bob, because that's you're deal.
but where i come into a problem is Bob telling me what i should do, when i believe that there are very special benefits to those postures--which of course, the tradition teaches as well--and i know that i can teach my students the postures in a systematic and safe way.
so i think that when it comes to the prenatal stuff, what a lot of you wouldn't do with yoru students--because of the training or experience or what have you--i would do simply because i know my students, my teaching, my training, my process. i know what we do, and i know that i can lead a student safely through a posture that another teacher may find "way too risky."
i'm fine with that teacher saying "my experience tells me that this posture is too risky, therefore i won't teach it." but i'm not fine with a teacher saying "my experience is universal; everyone should teach as i do."
and i beg the question of how we are teaching, when we are saying "i wouldn't do that."
my clients with back pain, i teach some postures--in a safe and systematic way--that other back-specialist teachers with all of the doctor-approved training credentials wouldn't go near. they tell me i'm risky, i'm dangerous, i'm not taking care.
and yet my students heal and feel great and get better--often more quickly than theirs--because i took the approach that was right for that student, as i knew and understood it based on my experience and training and the relationship with that student. . .
so, it hink that'smore to what i'm getting at. . . |
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| zoebird-"i'm fine with that teacher saying "my experience tells me that this posture is too risky, therefore i won't teach it." but i'm not fine with a teacher saying "my experience is universal; everyone should teach as i do."
jimg-I totally agree with this. We all need to decide what we feel comfortable with, make an educated risk/reward assessment, and then teach from there. I don't agree with many things that other people do, so I don't do them. I don't want other people telling me what I can or cannot do, so I can't go around telling others what they should or should not do.
That being said, I think that it is extremely important that these decisions be made after evaluating the evidence and making a call that you can support, rather than making these kind of decisions out of ignorance or lack of due diligence.
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| I think that it is extremely important that these decisions be made after evaluating the evidence and making a call that you can support, rather than making these kind of decisions out of ignorance or lack of due diligence.
i completely agree with this.
part of the struggle that i have with many of the prenatal teachers that are here is that they are not diligent in their studies.
my process with any student--pregnant or otherwise--is to listen deeply to their descriptions of what they are feeling in their bodies. i then go home and look at my anatomy charts and i contemplate deeply what is going on with my student. if they have a medical diagnosis, then i look that up, as well as whatever treatment they are going through. and i add this to my contemplation of what might work for this student.
once i feel that i have a solid understanding of the student's situation, i begin to research the various yoga postures that we do and how they may be helpful or harmful to the given student--and i focus on how the alignment will affect the student energetically and physically. i then study posture that would work toward that specific area for that student, taking into consideration what i know of the student's level of ability and so on.
from there, i then take the student through the normal routine that we do, asking the student to carefully observe certain alignment techniques, and i observe them deeply to make sure that they are in the proper alignment. after class, we discuss the need and how the yoga class affected it, or if they felt it or what have you. then, if i feel that it would be beneficial to add or take away postures from the sequence for them, i do--and i instruct them on the specialized postures just for them, including modifications.
this process is one that requires a lot of effort on my part, and a lot of my online time during the day is spent researching and contemplating the different situations that my students bring to me--physical, emotional, or spiritual. i spend a lot of time looking into these questions for them, and i strive to provide both work that we can do and resources outside of this that they can consider on their own.
and always, it's balanced with what they are experiencing and feeling.
i notice that many of my fellow teachers are not this diligent. they are great people, and they love the work that they do. but they do not deal well with injuries or special cases or unique needs. they teach general classes for generally healthy people. they think about yoga when they do their own practice, when they're reading an interesting book on a given yoga topic, and when they are leading/teaching their classes. they do get continuing education--and typically they follow that to the letter, which decreases ignorance and gives them a great starting point, but i think that if it's the basis of all of the work--rather than this more contemplative and experimental aspect--then perhaps i'm wondering if they are practicing "due diligence."
perhaps i am asking too much from fellow teachers, though admittedly i would prefer to go to a teacher who takes the perspective that i do about this work.
and this is why, in part, i do not want to go to the prenatal class that i mentioned above. this is a teacher who has recently completed a 200 hr training, who has taken a specialized training in teaching children (a training that i find patronizing to children, having watched the classes), and who teaches prenatal because she "did yoga throughout her pregnancy."
i would feel much safer working with one of the two teachers who have posted here--due to their training and obvious diligence in their studies--than the teacher who wants me to take her class.
and this is common in my area. many of the prenatal teachers are not trained in prenatal, they simply practiced while pregnant, they have a book or a video, and they follow that.
this is not diligence.
and then beyond this, they harass and fear-monger me about how i teach my students as well as how i practice myself as a pregnant woman.
it's really very strange. |
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| zoebird - 2008-03-07 7:01 AM
but again, "better safe than sorry" is a mentality of fear, not a mentality of teaching from a place of honesty, which is something that i call into question at it's very basis.
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Do you stop at red lights? |
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| Zoe,
I get the sense that I have offended somehow. I never meant to do so. It seems I have also come across as bashing others for not doing as I do. This was not my intention. I do not think my way of teaching is Universal and when I spoke of teachers taking "less care", I am speaking of teachers who not only do not offer modifications for pregnancy, but also have a lack of concern for alignment principals that everyone needs. Seriously, I could take you to a few places around here and you would get what I am driving at completely. I understand that just because this happened to me, does not mean it will be true for others. Again, please take into consideration that I am speaking from a place where I have felt violated. I simply wish teachers who do not know would say,"I am not sure how to help you, let me go find out."
Also, I do not come from yoga as a medical model or that everyone is one and the same. I look at the individual student as you do. I used to be a special ed. teacher so I am aware of individual needs and offer my students what they need accordingly. I am also a fan of Ayruveda, so again, individual needs are taken into account.
This was my very first response to a post and I am thinking it did not go over so well. I was simply trying to offer my experience.
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| It went over just fine.
I did not perceive your post(s) as out of bounds, bashing, offensive, or inappropriate in nature or intent.
Edited by purnayoga 2008-03-07 6:29 PM
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Expert Yogi
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| DeAnna - no, your post went over fine. You are, as you say, responding to something from a place where you have felt violated, and ZB is responding from the place of being a little p*ssed about being told what to do all the time. She didn't like it much before she was pregnant and isn't taking it much better now.  We missed those encyclopedic posts during the first trimester, zoebird! I think it has been a healthy discussion all around. |
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| no, i agree with the others that it went over completely fine. 
i think that, for me, i really love good dialogue, and that in person, we have way more cues about meaning (body language, tone of voice, etc), and i strive really hard to keep my written tone level and even, and also that i try to read people with the mind that they are presenting, not attacking or whatever.
and, i think that language itself is very interesting, so i like to explore that in myself and at a cultural level--so it's not 'personal' thing at all, though that doesn't often come across. example, i'm exploring how "better safe than sorry" may be an expression of fear/worry rather than a true act of reasoned caution.
and, i do know what you mean about teachers/people who are are not careful and will not admit their limits. it is a HUGE problem, and particularly when we're dealing with yoga (i think, but that could be just because i'm passionate about yoga). And, it IS violating to students! it IS harmful to them! and it's sad, because somehow people tend to think of this behavior as "OK" and they just go with it. I could show you MANY teachers around here like this--so i know EXACTLY what you're talking about.
beyond this, tourist is right. first, i have a serious problem with being told what to do by others. my typical way of acting towards people is to tell them things to consider or go look up or experiment with, or i tell them what worked for me with no expectation that they'll be interested or try it (and in both cases, they have to ask). i have a problem with "authority" that i consider to be "false authority" or to be an individual who's perspective is fundamentally or philosophically different from me, but who still asserts some "authority" or behaves 'authoritatively" towards me because this demonstrates a lack of respect for my own agency and intellegence.
now, i'm not saying that i felt you were doing this, but i often feel the force of culture doing this. and in the yoga world, we have culture coming to bear on what we do, just like midwives do. because our culture values certain things--or percieves pregnancy in a certain way for instance--then that impacts how people think about yoga in light of that information, rather than taking that information in light of yoga. KWIM?
so, not only do i not like being told what to do in general unless i really believe that person is an authority (and i have teachers, so it's not like i'm out on a limb or anything! LOL), but if i do not believe that person is an authority, or i see their authority as only extending so far due to the differences in philosophy, then i see no reason to hold that opinion as more valid than my own experience/opinion.
and yet employers will hold with the other opinion (it's why i'm not "allowed" to teach prenatal yoga, even though i'm more highly trained and experienced than other prenatal teachers in this area), and the teacher's themselves hold with this opinion (that i shouldn't teach because i'm not "prenatal certified" by a certain group or what have you), and then beyond this, the teachers and students push their ideas about what is and isn't ok to do while pregnant onto me, even though their knowledge is highly limited in both yoga and also in what my specific experience/needs are.
so as you felt violated by someone not being clear about limits--that is, they didn't express their limits--i feel violated by someong not being clear about my limits--which is, they flood me with their fears and "information" because they're trying to be helpful and "better safe than sorry" and they're "scared for me."
but their fears are not my fears, and so i feel completely pushed. and this isn't the only area. it's not just in my yoga practice, but also in my dietary practices, and my choice of birthing at home, unassisted, and having an unassisted pregnancy (no doctors, no midwives, no tests and appointments--unless i strongly feel and think that i need one!), the fact that i haven't worn a bra in four months, the idea that i want to breast feed until natural weaning, and on and on.
i can't get away from people's advice to me about "taking care of myself" and "being good to the baby" and "don't be afraid to get the epidural!" and "you shouldn't do inversions or deep back bends!" and "you should eat more meat but don't eat raw cheese" and 'you must take prenatal vitamins" and "children belong with their peers in child care" and on and on and on.
and sometimes, it's not people saying this, but the messages in the magazine advertisements or the conversations that women hold (i recently went to a meeting of homebirthing women, and it was so medical, and i had little to say, and when i shared my process, i was then treated very coldly), or in off-handed remarks.
so what i'm doing, in this conversation and most, is trying to come to terms with feeling so isolated and pressured to "normalize."
i'm not really "p*ssed" about it, so much as i'm upset that i'm not included, that i don't get to participate as other women do, because of these pressures, and i feel very left out and sometimes quite alone. |
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| This thread brings up so many many things.
As far as power yoga during pregnancy, I think this boils down to a certain mindset. I think many pregnant women, especially those who are young and fit and who are having easy pregnancies don't want to think of themselves as weaker just because they are pregnant. So they push themselves and attempt to live their lives just as they did before. What did the feminist movement do to us women. It turned us into women who can't just take it easy. We are always trying to prove ourselves, but to whom? Is it worth it?
With regards to fitting in when we make different choices. This is always stressful and isolating, but we have to do what we think is right. It is difficult being misunderstood because you are taking a different path. I think the challenge here is to be different without the anger and frustration that others misunderstand. |
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| see, but there's an assumption again, that pregnancy is a "weaker" condition. it isn't. it's just a different condition, one of change, and that change is positive. i see it as a position of strength, personally.
and, i have no trouble taking it easy. during the first tri, i was very sleepy. i would get up late, go teach the am classes (no assisting/demos), and then go home and take a bath and a nap, then teach in the evening, and then go to bed early. my practice was 100% restorative postures on props.
now, i have more energy and i'm walking again, and i can assist/demo in class, and i'm working my way up back to doing sun salutations, though my focus is more on just doing standing, arm balance/inversions (only as desired/necessary), seated and reclining postures. that is, i've just gotten more diverse.
and all of them are for the purpose of serving the pregnancy--to help the body move with ease through the growth changes of pregnancy and to prepare for labor and birth. so, it's not as if i feel that what i'm doing has to do with not wanting to feel weaker or not being able to take a break, but the reality that i am not weaker (nor do i feel weaker) and i'm so pleased to have the energy back and the knowledge/ability to utilize yoga to prepare for birth.
and, i don't feel misunderstood, i feel like i'm missing out on what other women in our culture get and i am sad about that. they get parties, celebrations, people excited for them and extra-large "travel systems." i'm happy with my path, i'm not happy that my path is seemingly isolating.
Edited by zoebird 2008-03-10 6:31 PM
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Pregnancy and Power Yoga
