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Regular
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| DJ Dre - 2008-01-23 9:48 AM
The times I've heard it called McYoga definitely has a derogatory edge to it: like McDonalds, the burger/experience is always the same, uninteresting, cheap, made for the masses, etc.
It is interesting to examine that angle. I do like the consistency of the series. (Though I am growing weary of the dialogue and some of the push.) If I go to a restaurant I usually seek out independent, unique restaurants. However, if I look at the restaurants I frequent, say compared to a chain experience, I don't see how I'm much different from someone who likes McDonalds because of the sameness or the consistency of the product--there's a sameness in those independant restaurants.
So, in coming full circle, when I hear McYoga, I hear it as a put down. And I wonder why people feel the need to knock it. The same reason that people knock or judge most things: insecurity. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | you show up for a class and you don't know who'll be serving you
An interesting take on this, that I heard from a Bikram studio owner no less, as to why she doesn't post a schedule for who's teaching is because she feels showing up and practicing with whoever is teaching, being open to what they offer even if there are personality differences... is part of the yoga. In that context, it's the difference you shouldn't try to avoid. |
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Regular
Posts: 90
| DJ Dre - 2008-01-23 1:44 PM
you show up for a class and you don't know who'll be serving you
An interesting take on this, that I heard from a Bikram studio owner no less, as to why she doesn't post a schedule for who's teaching is because she feels showing up and practicing with whoever is teaching, being open to what they offer even if there are personality differences... is part of the yoga. In that context, it's the difference you shouldn't try to avoid. My experience has been that the subtle differences between teachers accentuates some parts of the practice BECAUSE the dialog is supposed to te the same. Each teacher at my studio is different and I really like that. I don't target specific classes because of who is teaching, but I do get something different from each of them.
I just think this is more generalizing based on supposition and isolated incidents...a common theme on this Bikram forum. |
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| I believe the same instructions you recieve and the difficult aspect of Bikram helps put you develop a strong concentrated mind. A strong concentrated mind is paramount to a good mediation practise. Both go hand in hand.
I can see how people wouldnt equate Bikram with "spiritualism". Our conditioned minds expect some guru type person with a very low toned voice waving incense sticks and repeating a mantra to qualify as "spiritual". While this can be true and in my Siddha Yoga intensives we do a lot of chanting and meditation. If you study the history of great beings a lot of their teachings are very simple and are designed to still the mind and crush the ego. One guru had his disciple pick up cow dung for ten years. Now would anyone here consider that "spiritual"?
As for the McYoga label that is funny. I can see how the franchised business model of Bikram creates that "corporate" feel. But again making money might be something that people have an aversion too but we have to be practical in life too. Making money and accepting making money is part of any life, spiritual or non-spiritual. Living on the street corner with a potato sack and not having any money to eat doesnt make you "spiritual". |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | Alot of people don't know this, but Bikram doesn't make money via a franchise fee. He protects his brand like a franchise, ie: you have to get permissiona use his name, take his training, be recertified every three years, submit a business plan, do area research, just like any other application for a franchise. But. One studio owner I talked to said he doesn't actually charge a franchise fee. I don't know if that's still the case, but that's what I've heard. |
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| He charges an application fee when you apply to open your studio and is working on the franchise agreement. Once it is finalized studios will have to pay a franchise fee, but I am hearing it is going to be nominal. |
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| I'll take Bikram for what it is and I don't want to knock it because I like how I feel after. However, I love the personal attention and feedback I get in other styles of yoga and being able to ask questions. I have a predilection for the music, gongs and churchy (spiritual) feel of other places. Is churchy a word? Also, what I like about Bikram is that it brings up these issues we are talking about here, it cuts through spiritual materialism, and it totally works my shit, pushes my buttons and forces me to face my judgements about myself and other people. Nice thread. |
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| For those of you who think that Bikram is less "spiritual" please read the previous thread "male clothing".
FYI
The Lingam (male penis) is a symbol for the worship of the Hindu deity Shiva. The use of this symbol for worship is an ancient tradition in India extending back at least to the early Indus Valley civilization.
Origin
The origins of the worship of the Shiva-Linga are unknown. Some associate them with the famous hymn in the Atharva-Veda Samhitâ sung in praise of the Yupa-Stambha, the sacrificial post. In that hymn a description is found of the beginningless and endless Stambha or Skambha and it is shown that the said Skambha is put in place of the eternal Brahman.
Another theory is that Shiva linga might have been originated from the erect memorial topes of Buddhists consecrated in the memory of Buddha. The very poor, who were unable to build big monuments, used to express their devotion to him by dedicating miniature substitutes for them.
Etymology
Monier-Williams explicitly explains lingam as: "The sign of gender.. organ of generation .. The male organ or Phallus (esp. that of Siva worshipped in the form of a stone or marble column which generally rises out of a yoni").
This gives a little historical and "spiritual" background on the wearing of Speedos.
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Expert Yogi
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| Jim - you just gave me incentive to pay more attention to the Bikram thread.
And congratulations - you just got your thousandth post! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| It depends what your definition of spirtuality is. Bikram himself said "if its not hurting you are not trying hard enough". So if you associate causing yourself pain and not being gentle, caring and sensitive to yourself as spirtual then it is. If Bikram wants to go on a spiritual magical mystery tour with his yoga technique, that is his freedom to do so. It is however good to remember that yoga is a science and 'spirtitual' western description of yoga originally came from christianized versions of yoga texts. |
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| vibes - 2010-07-03 5:07 AM
It depends what your definition of spirtuality is. Bikram himself said "if its not hurting you are not trying hard enough". So if you associate causing yourself pain and not being gentle, caring and sensitive to yourself as spirtual then it is..
While I agree that pain is your body telling you something that should not be ignored, all growth has a certain amount of pain or discomfort involved. You do not grow your muscles or your mind by staying within your comfort zone and leaving your comfort zone (physically, mentally or emotionally) is often painful and usually not comfortable.
Bikram's philosophy is exactly what some people need for growth, it is also a recipe for injury for others. People who baby themselves need their ass kicked from time to time. People who push themselves all the time need to learn to relax, be gentle and accept.
If you have a single philosophy that fits all people at all times, you have dogma, not the intelligent application of whatever is best for a unique individual at one unique point in time.
Personally, I find a very vigorous practice ideal for me at some times and a very gentle, restorative practice ideal at other times. Bottom line: be aware of what you need at this time and do it.
Warning: Discomfort in or near your joints, or in your spine (including neck) should ALWAYS be avoided as it is dangerous.
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Extreme Veteran
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| Yes, learning can be uncomfortable. But to repeat the same discomfort is not learning and is simply unintelligent. You can allow the border between comfort and discomfort to improve by learning gently. Any good scientist will tell you that where there is will there is no skill. e.g. a young, big, strong martial artist being unable to defeat a small, gentle elderly martial arts master. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| vibes - 2010-07-04 2:14 AM
where there is will there is no skill..
????? |
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| I always thought that you need will to develop a skill. I have some advanced skills in certain areas, and believe me, there is a lot of will involved.
I'm sure that Glenda (Tourist) and her husband are not improving their ballroom dancing skills without a whole lot of will!
You develop a skill through practice.
You need will to start that practice every day. You need will to focus while practicing. You need will to attempt something difficult. You need will to face your fears. You need will to accept your weaknesses and work on them (instead of just doing what you do well). You need will for the continual honest personal self assessment that is part of practice. You need will to be more aware of exactly what you are doing, focusing on each and every detail. You need will to ignore the details and just dance the dance or just play the music. You need will to physically and mentally relax. You need will to perform any action. Without action we are dead.
Edited by jimg 2010-07-04 1:43 PM
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Extreme Veteran
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| No worries. Funny as I used to think the same thing too. I feel it is quite common.Even in school I remember we were told to try harder often, or use more will power. The fact is, nothing in school is hard as is nothing in yoga when properly understood. Maths is easy, as is english, physics and chemistry when understood.
When we dont understand something there is a tendency to try harder with more will.
Things you feel that are difficult are easier when you understand them. When you use will power it is harder to feel what you are doing. When you know what you are doing you can do what you want. Focusing on details is about bringing your attention to some details which does not require will power in myself and many others I know. If I was to pour icy cold water over you, would you need will power to be aware of that detail. There is nothing in modern neurology that says that either.I hope you find inner calm organically without the need to use will power. I also wish that every yogi/yoga student and human being finds inner peace in themselves rather than using will power to try to live a better life so that it is not their true nature so they may suffer later in life.
Its nice to see children learning to swim. You suddenly see a state they reach when they dont have to try so hard with will and can feel what to do through learning how to learn to swim with feeling and what neurologists describe as sensory motor learning which is only achieved through minimizing will/effort. |
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Extreme Veteran
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| I love bringing martial arts up and it may help some peeps too, so here I go- Without will power one can learn to be powerful without investing alot of power. When you see great martial arts masters, you see the way they move is flawless, easy and light, yet still strong and accurate. Most of their students cant do it and need effort and will. Some will try and immitate the masters moves.But immitating his moves in itself with will does not give you the ability. Its similar in the yoga world too. |
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| vibes - 2010-07-04 2:45 PM
When you see great martial arts masters, you see the way they move is flawless, easy and light, yet still strong and accurate. Most of their students cant do it and need effort and will.
Absolutely true, except you are ignoring that the martial arts masters used many years of will power and hard work to achieve the effortless state.
The master that I learned Taekwondo from (I am a black belt and believe me, that requires much will and effort), started TKD as a small child, worked very hard for years, became the Korean national collegiate champion, went on to win world martial arts championship and was pictured on the cover of many international martial arts magazines. I have seen him break eight one inch thick boards held together with a single kick. I have seen him catapult himself high in the air and break two boards, about 8 feet apart and 8 feet high, at the same time while doing the splits high in the air. He has speed, flexibility and accuracy that seems almost impossible. He can now do many amazing things with no appearance of effort. That does not mean that it is without will or effort, only that he is wasting no effort and focusing all his effort on a single point. This is the fruit of effort, not the lack of effort.
I have played the French Horn for 47 years, many of them professionally. I have played at a very high level and have played with people of the very highest level, in the USA, Germany, Switzerland and Vienna. Many people who see me play comment on how I can play difficult things with no apparent effort. This could not be more untrue. Not only are many thousands of hours of effort required to appear effortless, the effortlessness itself is the result of both will and effort.
When one is relaxed and focused, it appears effortless. It is not. Appearances are often deceiving.
When you are facing an opponent in martial arts sparring, believe me that it takes a whole lot of will to be relaxed and focused. When you are playing a very difficult solo with an orchestra, it also takes a supreme amount of will to be relaxed and focused.
Either you are just repeating something that you heard or read but have not actually experienced, or you are defining effort as force. Anyone who has ever mastered anything knows that without will and effort, it just doesn't happen. On the other hand, force will get you nothing except perhaps an injury.
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| this is definitely my favorite part |
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Extreme Veteran
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| Hey Jimg. You almost get it. Forget what I wrote and then come back to it in a few weeks and you may understand. So if I set your pants on fire (according to what you previously wrote) would you need will power to be aware of it? Awareness and will are very different. As you mentioned too,' that force will get you nothing except an injury' -when you are more aware you dont need to use unnecessary force. Anyway. Come back to it in a few weeks and it may make more sense. Have a good week sensei. |
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Extreme Veteran
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| Vibes, do you do Bikram yoga. How often? I can't imagine anyone doing bikram regularly without effort? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| I have done it on and off over the years. Bu now do it with reducing physical effort more and more.Have found that Im more efficent and have improved and so have my mates who have done the same. They feel they could have improved much more had they reduced the physical effort earlier too. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Next time you make love, have a go reducing the physical effort and replace it more sensing and feeling and listening to your and your partners feelings more, feeling more and more what movements develop naturally and organically and see what happens. Then try ride the waves of pleasure like surfing. |
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Veteran
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| I totally hear what you are saying and I could not agree more.... ever try to force an orgasm thats on the brink???? It never seems to come......lol
there is ease in the effort, it is not EASY but not forced either just a gentle working moving and meditating and BREATHING |
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Extreme Veteran
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| Im so glad to hear that someone in yoga forum land gets it! |
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| finally |
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Bikram yoga less "spiritual"?
