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| kulkarnn - 2007-11-15 11:34 AM
Now I know why Brother SCT has avoided seeing me. He thinks I shall talk in Chanting language. But, he does not know that I am also a younger brother of Big Brother Bruce. Thus, I know other languages too!
O-brother Neel
not at all---I listen to your singing voice by my choice--although I don't try to imitate you, I simply can not do it justice.
the wife and four children make me have no time to divert from the path as their full time watch guard and provider
I apologize profusely for my rudeness
please forgive me. |
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| i think that both sexes/genders (or all of them, if there are more than two), have their boundaries. i just think that women are more likely to tolerate stuff than men are.
by this i mean, if a woman goes to a class and doesn't like 1 thing about it, but likes the rest of everything about ti, and even if that one thing she doesn't like is "invading certain territories"--i find that she'll often be able to simple "leave it go" and continue with the class.
whereas i've noticed that many men will use that one thing as their reason for leaving it.
i don't know if this is across-the-board. i know that there are many classes that i don't take because of "just one thing" and there are classes that i don't take because of many reasons. and i know that there are men who will sit through all kinds of things just to get that one morsel that they want or get from it.
but, i have found men to be a bit more stubborn about such things. 
i think, though, that there are things that men are sensitive to such as
-- not being able to be the 'top student' in the class that is tough for them, particularly if the top students in the class are women,
-- being in a room of mostly women,
-- being in a room of rather scantily-clad women, or women in tight clothing,
-- the teacher's themes and ideas may focus on "the feminine" (even this bugs me in class, but particularly when i'm in class and there are men in there as well!),
-- when they're not really interested in yoga and only coming for X or Y reason and one thing 'turns them off' about it
and a variety of others. |
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| To me, group chanting is the same as group prayer or saying the pledge of allegiance. I have never liked these activities, even as a small child and I don't like them now. I see it as a group control thing and in my opinion it is very manipulative. Although I have never had any type of traumatic incident with this kind of group activity, I have always felt this way intellectually and also on a deep physical level. If I am in a group that does any of the above, I will play along to not draw attention to myself or spoil the other people's enjoyment but then re-evaluate whether I want to do that activity again or attend that function. I find it very uncomfortable. This is not just my egotism as I can totally sublimate my ego (or sense of myself as separate) in a variety of other activities. I think that other men may also feel this way.
Edited by jimg 2007-11-15 1:22 PM
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| ZB, your response was kinda where I was hoping to go with this, though I really didn't want to draw those conclusions myself about men, since I'm a woman. The point about the one thing that would make or break a class experience, that one in particular is a very good example, though it tends to bother me that these generalizations need to be made across gender lines. I think that's the thing here, that they're gender-based generalizations, and I guess I was hoping to find out that they weren't true. Or if they were, I was hoping to hear them put forth explicitly like you did, from a male point of view. Though I suppose I've answered my own question there.... I guess my main point initially in asking my question was that I really don't want to evolve into a "women's" yoga teacher, and so I was hoping to learn what it is that might turn men off. Generalizations, yet again. |
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| I think nothing is turning men off. I think the men should be explained that the benefits they are looking for are available by doing yoga and they should be convinced of this. Women, without any doubt, are looking for looks (more than health and fitness), fitness (more than health) and also health. I think they also care about health slightly more than men, since they feel they are managing family health more than men. So, they are almost convinced that Yoga gives these benefits. Men, on the other hand, are looking for greater level of fitness and strength, competitive sports challenges and achievements, recreation which is mixed with the fitness and sports, etc. Yoga classes do not really provide these things. And, definitely, 'chanting' does not provide these.
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| zoebird - 2007-11-15 9:42 AM
-- not being able to be the 'top student' in the class that is tough for them, particularly if the top students in the class are women,
jimg===>A little competition is fun and I don't care if it is men or women, although some men have a problem with this when it is women, especially if they are a bit insecure in their masculinity. Most men like competition and will respond positively to it if it is done right. I know that many people say that yoga should not be competitive, but competition is human and it is absurd to pretend not to be how you are. I think that the important thing is to acknowledge the competition and to use it as a tool instead of supressing it and it controlling you. (I have even seen people competing to see who can be the most non-competitive!) I have two female students who are stronger and more flexible than I am. I think that's great. I am flattered that they feel that I have something to teach when they are so good. I don't think that men all need to be the "top student". They just can't accept being a "beginner" as well as many women can. Men are generally success oriented and being a beginner is often seen as the opposite of success. Addressing this (through action, not words) works for many men. For example: do more strength poses (especially upper body strength) with beginning men. They will feel successful and subsequently be willing to work on the areas where they were less successful. Reminding men of the famous male athletes who do yoga and how the flexibility and improved range of motion improves their game is also helpful. (That helps men to feel that they are part of something "manly" and not alone with a bunch of women.) Generally, more action and less talk appeals to men. Men generally prefer to hear what they should do, like: "extend the back of your neck" rather than what they should feel, like: "you should feel like a star, radiating in all directions".
-- being in a room of mostly women,
jimg===> Not a problem for me although, again, some men have a problem here as well, especially if they are used to being around mainly men. (At home, I have a wife (female) and two daughters and at work all of the people that work for me are women so I am used to being around women.) If your class is inclusive of men in it's tone and practice, there should already be other men in the class for the new-comer to see as models. Of course, being a male teacher helps.
-- being in a room of rather scantily-clad women, or women in tight clothing,
jimg===> This makes me feel more masculine, not less so!
-- the teacher's themes and ideas may focus on "the feminine" (even this bugs me in class, but particularly when i'm in class and there are men in there as well!),
jimg===>This is a real turn off!!!!
-- and a variety of others.
Some yoga teachers teach their classes to women and some simply to people. Men generally don't like the "women's" classes and feel unwelcome because they can't relate to what is being presented. Men are generally more action oriented. Men often like more physical classes and women often look for an emotional component. Bikram, Astanga and Power yoga are popular with men because these classes are more physical, more active. This is attractive to men of all ages and younger, more athletic women.
Also, most men do not like crystals, chanting, incense or any "New Age" type things. Talk about centering yourself, your heart chakra and how you feel is usually a turn off. Men usually want to come, just do the class, and go, feeling energized.
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| Zoebird attempts to generalize:
-- not being able to be the 'top student' in the class that is tough for them, particularly if the top students in the class are women,
Hmmm, I have a couple of things to say here: having a woman be more flexible than us doesn't bother us in the least; after all, we are less flexible because we have so much muscle (cough, cough...) 
Now having a woman nail peacock while I aimlessly flop around on my belly is another matter!
(seriously, I am ok with it too)
Now in ACADEMICS, the situation is just the opposite than what you describe; I've seen females drop out of engineering programs because their GPA's were "only" 3.5; after all, their friends are making 4's in other disciplines. On the other hand, many guys are actually relieved to get a B or a C.
-- being in a room of mostly women,
May or may not be a problem...
-- being in a room of rather scantily-clad women, or women in tight clothing,
When this happens (e. g., at the Bikram classes that I visited), NOT A PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!! Of course, my stupid new glasses tend to slip a bit, even with my using "croakies" 
But alas, my usual classes are the "grannies and gramps" variety....  |
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| Hey Ollie: Good job man. Keep it up. |
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| Thanks Neel.
By the way, my handstand still is terrible, though I can hold peacock feather for a few breaths without the wall.
I am not that steady yet, but I am getting better.
Doing back bends seems to help.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
    
| They just can't accept being a "beginner" as well as many women can.
jim - you nailed it with that one! We were recently discussing how women who want to take up cycling, for example, will go to a clinic at the Y the minute they buy their bike, or even go to the clinic to learn which bike to buy. Whereas most guys will just go grab a bike and start riding and not look for help until they run into a problem or want to improve past what they can do on their own. Mr. Tourist was pretty pleased that I was willing to start kayaking with him with no prior experience and no lessons. We paddled for quite awhile before taking the "wet exit" class. Actually, the exit part is easy - it is the getting back in the d*mn thing that is the tricky bit! 
But really, while we can generalize, that is all it is.  |
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| tourist - 2007-11-15 6:04 PM
They just can't accept being a "beginner" as well as many women can.
jim - you nailed it with that one! We were recently discussing how women who want to take up cycling, for example, will go to a clinic at the Y the minute they buy their bike, or even go to the clinic to learn which bike to buy. Whereas most guys will just go grab a bike and start riding and not look for help until they run into a problem or want to improve past what they can do on their own.
There might be some truth in this. When I wanted to learn more asanas than were being taught, I bought a copy of Light On Yoga and got to work.
I basically taught myself headstand, for example.
I still go to classes and solicit feedback (I learned bhujapidasana in a class when I was visiting yoga-yoga in Austin, TX, for example). But I don't just sit and wait to have someone teach me something.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| DH is always wanting to learn dance steps online and practice at home before showing them to our teachers. Frankly, I think it drives them nuts! My attitude is, why learn something wrong and pay someone to fix it? Why not learn it right the first time? |
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| Oh... and "untraining" bad habits are the WORST!! I've run into that soooo many times with new cooks!!!! |
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| tourist - 2007-11-16 10:14 AM
DH is always wanting to learn dance steps online and practice at home before showing them to our teachers. Frankly, I think it drives them nuts! My attitude is, why learn something wrong and pay someone to fix it? Why not learn it right the first time?
\Because, the right way is a matter of perception, and trial and error when you are exploring a new trail and Men want to feel like they're going places no one else has gone too before and when our own bodies and minds are all that we have left to peruse, please, allow us our dignity in our own private discoveries and give us a cookie once in awhile and an 'ATTA BOY' when our fragile egos need some reinforcement, doesn't cost you a dime and makes you a better person for helping those less evolved than thou |
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| I mean, in the case of a private life, what does it matter, in the case of an established profession that is entirely different and my points do not apply properly |
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| actually, those generalizations are basicly what i've run into in my teaching/practicing.
i think men are strange, but i still like them. |
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| SCThornley - 2007-11-16 9:18 AM
\Because, the right way is a matter of perception, and trial and error when you are exploring a new trail and Men want to feel like they're going places no one else has gone too before
That isn't true for me...
and when our own bodies and minds are all that we have left to peruse, please, allow us our dignity in our own private discoveries
AHA! that is when you really learn something: when it is a private discovery! That is the only way you really internalize things, and you need "internal learning" to do that.
and give us a cookie once in awhile and an 'ATTA BOY' when our fragile egos need some reinforcement,
Nope. If there is one thing that I do not need it is approval from a woman!
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| well,
I like it when women pay attention to me,
I relish in the attention
I really like women
and if I ever get positive reinforcement, internal/external/male/female My preferred source is from a woman.
But, that's just me.
and I'm glad that we agree about private discovery and internalizing it-------I wish more folks would appreciate this TRUTH in all areas of life,
It is my opinion that too much authoritarianism will quash any and all individual creative initiative
yes we need the maintainer, we need the destroyer, but without the CREATOR, there is nothing
and I like something more than nothing
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| When I purchase something that must be assembled, I never EVER look at the directions. It seems dishonorable to do so when I can have the fun of figuring it out on my own. The same is usually true of asking for directions. This has been a time honored tradition among men for many centuries. Moses and the Israelites wandered around for forty years because he was, as a man, unable to ask for directions!
Men wanting approval from women is also natural because it often leads to preservation of the species. |
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| For me, I learn on my solely on my own when it is either do it that way or not at all.
But, even after instruction, there is the internalizing of it; for me, that is essential.
Approval for women: the irony is that when I discovered that I didn't need it and I stopped seeking it, I started to get it. 
I am not sure as to what that is about.  |
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| that begs the question, Ollie,
now that you get it, do you like it?
I'd find it a bit difficult to believe that you'd not appreciate a bit of approval, no matter where it came from.
Needy doesn't get noticed, accomplishment does.
We aren't islands, but sometimes we stand and fall, alone.
Edited by SCThornley 2007-11-16 2:01 PM
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| Oh Ollie- admit it, you love getting approval from us ladies! |
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| joscmt - 2007-11-16 5:32 PM
Oh Ollie- admit it, you love getting approval from us ladies!
No, I wouldn't want approval from anyone who would actually give it to me.
Actually, in yoga, I was most flattered when Neel said that my headstand "wasn't that bad.".
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| Update: today, we had 6 men, 4 women and the teacher.
ALL of the students wear glasses! 
I am not sure as to what that means.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 475
Location: canada | zoebird - 2007-11-15 12:42 PM
-- not being able to be the 'top student' in the class that is tough for them, particularly if the top students in the class are women,
how do you define "top student" in a yoga class??
zoebird - 2007-11-15 12:42 PM
-- being in a room of mostly women,
-- being in a room of rather scantily-clad women, or women in tight clothing,
i just LOOOVVEE being in a class with all women and a female teacher. something just seems right about it, ;) |
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No Girls allowed!
