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| my toes...lol...no. it's not that bad, but, please give me tips that i can use to help me to jump from adho mukha svasana to uttanasana smoothly and consistently. geez, i cannot for the life o me imagine why this should be so difficult. i mean, i get it 1/20 tries! HHhHHEEEEELLLLPPPP!
 Sav. 
Edited by savasana2 2007-09-23 2:19 PM
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| Let us see the video of you doing it.
savasana2 - 2007-09-23 2:18 PM
my toes...lol...no. it's not that bad, but, please give me tips that i can use to help me to jump from adho mukha svasana to uttanasana smoothly and consistently. geez, i cannot for the life o me imagine why this should be so difficult. i mean, i get it 1/20 tries! HHhHHEEEEELLLLPPPP!
Sav. |
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Expert Yogi
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| Well, people HAVE broken toes doing jumpings, though usually jump backs. From down dog to uttanasana, the main "trick" is to keep the hips lifted. Good luck! |
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| You should be jumping behind your hands until you can balance on your hands. You have to learn to let the shoulders move past your hands. It is scary..
Don't jump as far and step to the front of your mat for the next sun salute.
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| ...and of course there is the obvious "don't jump". |
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| And what would that do?
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| It sounds a bit like a control thing.
I don't know if you do this but try "lifting" forward.
When you move from down dog forward it's important to not get in to the habit of springing forward, bending the knees and launching your self forward.
What happens if you do that is you don't engage you stomach muscles properly, when the muscles (Bandhas) aren't engaged you can't lift yourself forward.
So you crash forward!
If you bend your knees and jump it's that spring energy doing all the work.
If you try not bending the knees (to much) and lift from the bandhas, much harder but, it gives you the strength and control to glide to your toes not crash.
With lifting you have greater control over the shift in gravity as your body moves forward, so it's not so scary moving to uttanasana. |
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| Phil,
I've always wondered how this works without jumping a little bit. Surely if you don't get your hands beyond the vertical first you can't use your bandas to lift your legs. You'd fall back wouldn't you?
Nick tried to get me to use my ankles more to get a bit of lift first but I'm still working at it.
Ian |
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| purnayoga - 2007-09-24 12:57 PM
...and of course there is the obvious "don't jump".
yep, but then you wouldn't be doing Jois Yoga.
or the Jois 'patented' Ashtanga
sooner or later 'I think' one comes to the conclusion about what Yoga is for oneself, or you just do someone else's model of what they think Yoga is.
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| Brother SCT: There is a great truth in what you said here that one should form their own practice which is correct for themselves (NOT suits themselves as sometimes wrongly thought, which means it is not necessarily comfortable or pleasing). However, I do not know whether the respected Pattabhi has patented Ashtanga Style. Also, you must know that the particular series exercises in this style were formed by the great Vamana Rishi several hundreds of years ago and they were applicable to a very fit individual and who also has other environment suitable to do them. I am sure that the Sage Vamana will not ask a person to do jump if the person is not ready for them and would break their tow.
On the other hand, the one who can jump 1000 times without breaking tow, dropping like a feather, such as the respectable John Freedman, may do such an exercise. And, with benefit.
There is something in the jumping exercises to be gained if one can do them.
Namaste.
SCThornley - 2007-09-27 9:37 AM
purnayoga - 2007-09-24 12:57 PM
...and of course there is the obvious "don't jump".
yep, but then you wouldn't be doing Jois Yoga.
or the Jois 'patented' Ashtanga
sooner or later 'I think' one comes to the conclusion about what Yoga is for oneself, or you just do someone else's model of what they think Yoga is.
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What I'm saying is Ashtanga, the way the respected Jois has bestowed it up the world, is not necessarily for everyone; even the most fit.
The human body is simply not standard issue from one to another, and what works on one, is not always possible with another, that's all I'm saying, pragmatically, after much concentration and deliberation and meditation upon the series, my practice of it, success and failures with it, and my consideration of the rest of my days.
However, that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to fly, jump, float, contort, or balance-----BUT, some things in certain bodies will never be possible no matter what the level of commitment to practice and dedication to improvement one has. I've come to grips with this reality, and gotten over it.
Sooner or later one must accept what they are and find peace within the confines of one's own being.
Maybe I'm cutting through the chase, maybe I'm missing the mark, but this is how I understand it after much time.
I'm duly impressed with the skills that many are born with, however, I'm a bit unimpressed by the notion that anyone can become the master Ashtanga series practitioner simply through repetitive physical practice in one lifetime.
Not everyone it born in the same body as Jois, David Swenson, or for that matter, Sharath.
Yoga and achievement have an interesting relationship, however I don't see that they are mutually synergistic for the healthy development of peace in one's being.
I do think that Yoga is big enough to accommodate everyone, and that anyone can gain exponential improvements in life from even the most modest practice, whether that includes asanas or not.
although, asanas are pretty cool---and physical stuff is concurrent among all of us 'mortals'
I've worn out the tops of my toes and developed calluses on my toes doing the Ashtanga series over the past 16-17 years and it didn't bring me any closer to enlightenment, or maybe it did, but the 'toe thing' kinda hurt and I don't believe pain is really all that healthy when it comes to developing a good Yoga practice/Life.
So, ultimately I'd say practice 'yes'
hurt toes? 'no'
that is if you have a choice in the matter
jeez, I'm a blabbering idiot today!?!?
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Location: London, England | Hi Ian,
I think that perhaps using bandha to lift frrom adho mukha savanasana could be liked to attempting to do pull-ups-when you do a pull-up, you grab the bar, and squeeze the muscles of the so-called 'extended core'-it's much easier to to pull up with the skeleton packed up within this muscular case. When people don't do this, you will often see them jump up on the first one to make up for the lack of control and strength. So there's definitely a link between the two actions. The question is, how much can you make it an action of the shoulders, arms and torso, rather than action of the legs only.
At least, that's what I think Phil might be getting at (we go back a long way ).
Nick |
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| Of course Nick
I hoped you would run with this. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Phil,
Predictable, arn't I?
Nick |
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| I wouldn't say predictable.
I would say consistent
The acid point is:
How the movement looks is irrelevant.
What is key is how you apply the technique! |
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| Ok,
So I'm in downdog and I've done my 5 breaths. On the next inhale I come up on my toes without bending my knees. What next? If I do the banda thing and pull from my core my feet drag along the floor. Surely I have to spring up a little bit?
Ian |
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Location: London, England | Hi Ian,
First of all, don't come up on your toes-that means that your will not be able to use plantar flexion (pointing the foot) to push forwards. Doing this means the practicioner learns to use the whole body, rather than using, for example, the quadriceps to spring forwards-instead, the muscles on the back of the calf, gastrocnemius and soleus, serve to plantar flex the foot. Because the knees are extended in down dog, the tension in the calf muscles is transmitted through its tendons to the three hamstring muscles which traverse the back of the thigh and attach to the ischial tuberosities (sitting bones). Back before we were human, these hamstrings continued across the joint, but this part of the muscle has evolved into a ligament called the sacrotuberous ligament. This ligament travels obliquely across to the sacrum, where it's fibres merge with and exert pull on the latissimus muscles on the opposite side of the body. These latissimus are very important, as the force exerted by the calf muscles then serves to bring the hips up above the shoulders as you lift forwards-the lats are a major part of this process. Because the lat's origin is on the brim of the pelvis and the lumbar spine, and it then inserts into the humerus, contracting it will either pull the arm back, or, if the arm is fixed, will serve to pull the body towards the arm.
So I think it's fairly important to set this process up by using the process described above. But there are multiple arguments for this-for example, bending the knees and jumping forwards will put what is called a flexion moment on the spine, so that when the spine should be extending, it flexes-causing the jump forward to be higher impact on the feet, as well as other joints-and the lower spine is then subected to compression whilst it is in flexion-higher risk of disc herniation-in fact, perfect conditions for disc herniation. Just as we are told to lift a heavy box off the floor without rounding the lower spine, so we should learn to lift forwards with the lower spine in neutral, or most probably being pulled towards neutral. This should mean that both the hips and shoulders get stronger and more flexible, whilst the muscles of the torso which stabilize the spine get stronger, and therefore allow us to transmit the forces imparted by our legs to our shoulders, and vice versa, and so what we do with our feet affects our hands, and again, vice versa.
So I think the answer is, less spring, more pull-I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be possible to do it with all pull, but you would have to be superhuman And most probably short
Nick |
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| This is my experience.
It doesn't make much sense to me to do this.
The vinyasas are about controlling the jumping, not eliminating them. The bandhas are not something that you activate here and there. You engage them the whole practice. (accept wide legged bending)
The jumping puts your shoulders over the wrists THEN you slow down the landings-whether it is a jump through, a sun salute or jumping into Bakasana. I jump around the whole practice into triangle, side angle, etc...
This over-emphasis on lifting could be very dangerous for me and many others. I'm thinking, hernia, torn muscles, eye pressures, hemorriods, etc..
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Location: London, England | Hi Eric,
Yes, good points. But surely that's what I was saying-the process leads to better control of the jumps, not necessarily eliminating them-the action of the calf muscles is a jump, after all. But the action of lifting does reduce the need for such high force production through jumping. Also, I think you would find that the act of jumping, which is possible through the achievement of a high force in a short space of time, is very different in it effects than the achievement of a a greater force over a longer period. Not least in consideration is-do you have enough time to perform the movement skilfully? It's fairly obvious that lifting provides the practicioner with much more time to execute good posture throughout the movement, rather than not being able to control the movement and therefore ending up in a posture that is not therapeutic.
Also, you run the risk of things like piles and hernia with jumping too-and I would think the risk is high, considering the velocity-I mean, if you aren't using bandha, surely you are more at risk of hernia-and if you are jumping, what action are the bandha serving?
I've never heard of no bandha during wide-legged postures-why's that?
nick |
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| Hey Nick,
My post was written before yours, but I didn't post it until after....
Moola or Mula Bandha is the main one I focus on.
Which to me is like holding an egg inside your perinium. (spelling?)
Uddiyana is more directing the breath into my chest and back during practice. *keeps my stomach off my legs.
The wide legged bending is easier without strong mula bandha. It's in Jois' Yoga Mula. There may be other reasons, (prana type answers) But I think it just makes it easier to relax that area a little to come down lower.
I think I understand what you are saying about better posture as a result from controlled movements. But on the other hand, reading Phil and your 1st post is a little misleading. The practice is so hard anyway. I can't imagine lifting like that 1 1/2 6 days a week.
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| Great stuff Nick
One point to Eric;
This is not about not doing bandhas in the rest of your practice.
This movement teaches you how to protect your practice, with your bandhas, most effectively. |
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| one more Eric.
The point is people are trying to do to much practise ineffectively.
It's best to do a little building strength in the right way over a long time, than try and prove something to your self and just get tired. |
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| Hi Phil. I know you and Nick have good intensions. So do I.
My response was to not jump as far (jump behind your hands) and work on bringing weight into the hands. My method was taught to me by David Swenson and it has helped me get stronger and practice for the last two years without injury. I practice everyday minus Saturdays and teach 6 classes a week without injury.
Of course I'm bias to my method of teaching or else I wouldn't have suggested my method of jumping and bring the weight over the shoulders.
Bandhas go on at the beginning of practice and go off at the end. There is no extra bandha effort here and there.
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| Really you think no extra bandhas are needed in more advanced postures than easier one's?
How do you expect to ever be able to do the lifted transitions of the 3rd & 4th series? |
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| Hey Phil,
Yes. why would you only practice extra bandha on harder postures? The whole practice is about breath, bandhas, and dristhi. Beginning to end.
I don't expect to ever be able to lift like that, but if I do, it will be because of the way I have applied baddha in the 1st two series.
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keep me from breaking...
