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I don't think any one is saying that you don't have to work things out for your self.
We're just discussing how to apply meditative technique to your own exploration.
jonnie
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| Hey Phil: I could not understand your following response to my question in the past post. So, as I said, let me ask my question differently. Please answer directly:
You said Ashtanga Yoga Vinyasa of SKPJ and Patanjali Yoga Sutras have no difference. Correct? Yes or NO?
Phil - 2007-08-18 1:18 PM
Hi All, it's nice to feel so welcome.
hi kulkarnn,
Logic? OK. It's very hard to use the mind to control the mind as the only thing your using is the mind and by that giving more energy to the mind. End result a headache!
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| Hy Phil,
I try to practice raja yoga in a way were i sperate the ego from the self, I like the philosophy of seeing our senses, thoughts, roles as something seperate from our true self. I see life as a stage where we act out our roles. I dont just see meditation as sitting in solitude being still and quiet although that is an essential ingrediant. I try to step back and watch my actions thoughts, feelings in my daily life. Step back and see what is going on as a detatched witness. I think we need to see our day as a meditation, lets face it when we are in the supermarket and the kids are having a tantrum this is when we need the inner calm the most, this is why I meditate with my eyes open, so that when I need the inner strength and peace it is easier to find because ive always had them open.
. We have to have thoughts how else would we live without the ego, but I understand that I am not my thoughts, and that it is up to me to create good thoughts and ideas, to make my life more positive.
Jimg - Godfrey is so consise, it is true we have to experience it for ourselves, however most of us need some guidance, on how. He even said on one of his workshops, everyone has the knowledge to move into unity by themselves but most of us need showing the way or else we wouldnt be there.
How long have you been reading his book?
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| Yes. Pattabhi himself studies(in sandscript) the sutras and applies it to his own understanding.
So how can it be different? |
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| Off course we need the mind, what other tool do we have to live in the world.
I my self like using the method of seeing the world through a detached decent through the mind and senses.
I've always found it amazing how a meditve practise over time gives you a massive reserve off focus and space when you need it.
But we have to remember that the "I" in detachment is still are mind, still in the realm experience.
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| Hey Phil:
I love your avataar. But, my problem is that I feel you are joking when I look at it. And, it is so attractive that I can not ignore it either. In other words, you are prominent!
Now, I am going to ask you next question. Please answer it exactly, as you did the previous one.
Question: Do you think there is any difference between Ashtanga Yoga of SKPJ and that of BKS Iyengar?
Phil - 2007-08-19 8:29 AM
Yes. Pattabhi himself studies(in sandscript) the sutras and applies it to his own understanding.
So how can it be different? |
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| No diffrence. Thay both learnt yoga with Krishnamacharya and the essence of his teaching was formulated by Patanjali.
In facked BKS's sister married Krishnamachary |
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| Phil - 2007-08-20 5:30 PM
No diffrence. Thay both learnt yoga with Krishnamacharya and the essence of his teaching was formulated by Patanjali.
In facked BKS's sister married Krishnamachary
While it is true that both SKPJ and BKS Iyengar studied with Sri Krishnamacharya (as did Sri Krishnamacharya's son Desikachar), they all studied at different times of their lives and more importantly at different times of Sri Krishnamacharya's life.
How Sri Krishnamacharya taught SKPJ as a young man full of energy is very different to how he taught his son Desikachar.
BKS Iyengar studied with Sri Krishnamacharya for less than two weeks, so the Iyengar system is ultimately the result of BKS Iyengar's own hard work and dedication.
While all three styles of Yoga (Iyengar, Ashtanga Vinyasa and Viniyoga) all share the same root, they are all quite different expressions of Sri Krishnamacharya's approach to Yoga.
Jonathon
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| Yes very different expressions.
And Krishnamachary really focused pattadhi on the vinyasa method.
But I don't see much core difference between there approaches, as there all rooted in the sutras. |
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| Hey Phil: Sorry about this round about way of doing things. But, since you are an expert HairStylist, I request that you do not mind. My next question:
- Do you think there is NO Difference between Krishnamachar's yoga exercises and Shree Patanjali Yoga Sutras?
Phil: Just for you knowledge, BKS Iyengar was our neighbour for a long time. My father was Math tutor for Geeta and other children of BKS.
Jonniebhai: This 2 week figure of study with the great Krishnamachaara is too litle. It is like in years. But, I do accept that BKS has done a dedicated contribution to the way Yoga Exercises are done, and should be done. And, that contribution should get its own credit away from any other teacher including olden Yogis. |
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| I think you've lost the point.
The question was is Patanjali Ashtanga sutras related to Mysore style Ashtanga yoga and BKS yoga.
And my answer is just yes. |
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| Darling Phil: I apologize that I missed one of your post, that is the very first one you posted. I started with the second of your post. Now, what you said above is not correct. Look at this:
Original Question:
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Can anyone tell me how the meditation limb works in Ashtanga? Is it just at the end or can you meditate while you are doing the practice?
AND
Neel,
I'm talking about ashtanga vinyasa yoga as taught by SKPJ which is what I thought was the focus of this particular forum. I think that it is called ashtanga because you are supposed to be able to incorporate all 8 limbs of yoga into the one practice though all the books and discussions I've seen and read seem to focus only on the asanas and vinyasas.
I was just wondering if anyone on the forum had managed to apply meditation whilst doing the primary series and if they had any advice on the subject.
Your Response:
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Meditation practice begins with, with drawing of the senses and then moves on to concentration and meditation.
In the Practice of Ashtanga yoga the breath, bandhas, asana, drishti and the movement, which make up the vinyasa. Are all aides and tools to to start the process of withdrawal of sense, concentration, meditation and samandi.
So the whole of the process of ashtanga yoga from the very beginning is a tool to create a meditative state of mind.
You can apply the same techniques to a moving practise as well as a sitting one.
As you get deeper into the ashtanga practice (I do not mean 3'rd or 4'th series here, you apply these techniques from the first sun salutation) these tools or process become more integrated and aide in deeper or more expanded states of meditation.
It's good to remember that meditation is an after affect, you can't make it happen.
AND
There is no difference between Pattabhi Jois Mysore style Ashtanga yoga and Patanjali's Ashtanga limbs of raj yoga. There are both, as for all lineages of yoga rooted in the same Vedas (knowledge) .
I don't know where people got the idea Pattabhi wasn't following Patanjali's sutras?
NOW
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Actually, Phil, your answer has some good points in it about Yoga. I accept that. But, your answer is actually wrong in response to the original question. This is my answer:
Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga Exercise style does NOT incorporate all 8 limbs of Patanjali Yoga Sutras. It only incorporates part of it. Iyengar Style of doing Yoga Exercise is very different from Ashtanga Vinyas Style. It is not only a difference of name, but many facets of the practice are different. BKS has changed from his original way of doing Vinyasa into more static, therapeutic and perfecttionist way of doing Yoga Exercise. And, Iyengar style does NOT incorporate All 8 limbs of Patanjali Yoga Sutras.
Read all the 8 limbs in the Yoga Sutras and you shall find that they are not included in both of these styles. About the personal life of teachers, I do not know. But, they are not in the style of doing exercise. In my personal belief (belief does not require proof!) the respected Prof Krishnamachar incorporated ALL limbs of Patanjali Yoga Sutras in his personal life. But, he did not declare any style on his name. So, there is no question of taling whether his style contained all these limbs.
NOTE: I am not stating that a style should contain all limbs. But, I am only responding to the original question.
Now, about incorporation of meditation: Meditation is NOT a result but it is actually a practice. All 8 limbs are actually a practice. Even the 8th limb of Samadhi is also a practice. trayamekatra sanyamaH. tajjayatpradnyaalokaH... Chapter 3. Until the Sanyama is mastered, it is all practice.
Next, the meditation performed during the exercise is definitely an aid to later meditation. But, the real purpose of bodily exercises is to maintain health and not meditation. Yes, health is also an aid to meditation, but it is not a must. It is extremely desirable, but not a must.
Also, asana in the Yoga Sutras is NOT Yoga Exercises performed in any style, including my own style. Asana in the Yoga Sutras is only the Posture for Meditation, also mentioned in the 6th Chapter of Shreemad Bhagavadgeeta.
The above paragraphs answer Jonnie's question.
Peace
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| Now, I am going to answer the original question.
One must actually perform a separate meditation practice apart from what is done during the Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga Exericise, in order to come into category of Meditation in the Yoga Sutras.
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Location: London, England | Hi Ian,
Just to add my hapenny's worth  I say it's ridiculous to think that meditation does not occur in a successful astanga practice-it's the same as anything else-the aim, and the skill with which you do it, determines whether it is meditational or not. So I reckon you have taken a leap forwards.
Nick |
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| Why cant meditation occur in ashtanga practice? I move into a meditive state when I practice, I feel tranquility and contentment, sometimes it feels as if my body disappears. Dhayana can happen to anyone one doing anything provided that there is adeep level of awareness, artists and musicians also speak about moving into a meditive state.
The mind is elusive, to harness the mind with the mind is very difficult. In ashtanga yoga we use
the body to harness the mind. By liberating the body from its restrictions we liberate the mind from its limitatations. The body is like a mandala on which we cultivate a meditive mind. When the mind can hold all the different actions of a posture in its grip at once, then the meditive quality of the postures is clear, the physical postures become a spiritual practice.
Rather than trying to slow down into stillness with an act of will, ashtanga allows us to harness the speed and flow of the mind and use the ryththm and consistency to harmonize and stabilize it.
Phil, how can the Gita be a different philosophy to patanjali, it contains jnana, bhakti, and karma yoga, which are all part of raja yoga? Surely these teachings were the bedrock of Patanjalis yoga? |
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| If people experience out of body experiences while practising asana, then I would argue that they are doing it wrong.
Asana is one of the most 'in your body' practises that I know.
The easiest way to solve this is experientially. Learn a simple meditation technique and practise it for six months and then compare the results to the mental aspects of your asana practise.
Jnana, Bhakti and Karma Yoga are different approaches to Yoga and not part of Raja Yoga, which itself is simply another approach.
Jonathon
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| Response to Nick and Raquel above:
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1. Darling Nick: Who is saying that Meditation does not occur in Ashtanga Style Yoga Exercise? No Yoga Exercise can be performed without sufficient Meditation. However, that is NOT the meditation mentioned in the Yoga Sutras as the original question was about. Meditation occurs in studying Physics as well, as Raquel pointed about correctly about musicians, but that is not the Meditation in the Yoga Sutras.
2. Darling Raquel: Assuming your logic of using Body for meditation with doing exercises on the Body, please think about this: If you accept that each person's body will die with the age, what do you think shall happen to the meditation done using the body?
Peace
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Location: London, England | Hi Neel,
Yes, I see what you mean-I was merely responding to Ian's first post, where he was asking whether anyone else had experienced this type of meditation.
Nick |
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| jonnie padmasana is asana, are you saying that you cannot have outer body experiences in this posture? and what about the whirling dervishes, also spontaneous postures brought about by deep meditation?
When I perform some postures my body feels a lightness, that I believe happens because all the lines of energy connect all the physical polarities of the body become balanced, this gives me a deep sense of peace, sometimes in Tadasana my feet seem to be doing all the work and I stand effortless. I feel as if in the words of Patanajali "the dualities of the body are transcended." ( ii.51) My sense of outside and inside disappears,
All meditation requires a seed in hatha yoga the seed is the body and how I see it is we train our body in somatic intelligence, by practicing the asana repetitively. In the beginning we think and then act, then think and act again, eventually we learn to trust the intelligence of the body and are able to let go of the thinking process, until our practice becomes meditation in action.
About the different "paths" of yoga bhakti yoga is mentioned in the sutras as devotion to iswara, how i understand it is that to reach higher stages the inner process must go through dhayana and dharana. Karma yoga too cannot be seperated from samadhi, when ever the body and mind become deeply focused for long periods, samadhi will arise is this not just the same as when the focus is selfless activity, devotion or surrender to the sublties of consciousness?
I was always under the impression that raja yoga included the four paths, please correct me if im wrong. Do they not all overlap in some way or other anyway?
Neel, the way I understand it is I use my body as the seed upon to meditate, the physical sense of ,existence drops away and all that I am aware of is the breath, my mind turns inward toward the flow of impressions arising from my soul. The buddists do walking meditations, do you think this is also not a true form meditation?
Edited by raquel 2007-08-20 8:48 AM
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| raquel - 2007-08-21 4:36 PM
jonnie padmasana is asana, are you saying that you cannot have outer body experiences in this posture?
Now, now, don't get picky. You know exactly what I meant .
Bhakti, Karma, Jnana and Raja are all different and independent approaches to Yoga, though the end result is the same (different paths to the summit of the same mountain).
Raja Yoga simply refers to the practise of the eight limbs of Patanjali.
Traditionally, the Guru would teach the student the approach that best suited their temperment, though Gurus such as Swami Sivananda combined all the above approaches to create a Yoga of synthesis.
Whether we should combine all the practises together or focus deeply on the most appropriate one for us is another discussion all togther.
If you are not familiar with Swami Sivanada's site, I strongly recommend looking at it:
http://sivanandaonline.org/
Jonathon
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| Then, my statement is redundant. This is a tricky matter in these bulletin board communications.
Nick - 2007-08-20 8:26 AM
Hi Neel,
Yes, I see what you mean-I was merely responding to Ian's first post, where he was asking whether anyone else had experienced this type of meditation.
Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Neel
No, my apologies-should have read the whole thread, and then rerspoded to that, or specified that I was only responding to one post.
Nick |
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| Hi Raquel:
I am going to address your statement about ShreemadBhagavadGeeta and Patanjali later. For now, let me address this.
First, you have not answered my question about the body part. Please do that. Next see ===> below.
raquel - 2007-08-20 8:36 AM
Neel, the way I understand it is I use my body as the seed upon to meditate
===> No problem.
, the physical sense of ,existence drops away and all that I am aware of is the breath, my mind turns inward
===> No problem.
toward the flow of impressions arising from my soul.
===> Flow of impressions do not arise from the Soul. Soul is beyond all impressions.
The buddists do walking meditations, do you think this is also not a true form meditation?
===> I am not using the term, 'True Meditation'. I am saying that 'it is not the meditation stated in the Yoga Sutras'.
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| only pulling your leg jonnie
Sorry to slip off on a tangent but could someone please enlighten me
Is raja yoga all of the limbs or just the meditative limbs?
and is Patanjalis ashtanga same as raja?
Are you saying that we choose a path and practice it along side the sutras
Because I did a raja yoga course which didnt even mention Patanjali, in fact the teacher didnt even know who he was, but I understood it to be the same, it did go into karma and bhakti, and we didnt do any postures or breathing practices.
Neel
sorry Im not sure I understand the question, but Ill try to answer to the best of my ability - I believe I am a spiritual being having a physical experience, when this body dies, my spirit will animate another body
About the impressions emanating from the soul, what I meant was my true nature,, my unique energy which is peace and stillness.
Edited by raquel 2007-08-20 10:20 AM
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| Raja means royal, so it is defined as the royal path of Yoga and refers to all eight of the limbs.
Ashtanga means eight limbs and is simply another name for Raja Yoga
My understanding is that if a person was practicing another approach to Yoga (Karma Yoga for example), then they wouldn't need the Sutras as they apply to Raja Yoga.
Regarding the Raja Yoga course you attended. I wouldn't recommend going back to that teacher
Jonathon
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Ashtanga and Meditation
