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| Can anyone tell me how the meditation limb works in Ashtanga? Is it just at the end or can you meditate while you are doing the practice?
I've just begun to feel an inner calm when I've finished my practice. Up until recently I was feeling a buzz from the primary series but now the effects seem to be going deeper.
And no TE I'm still not getting airborne in headstand though I feel I'm pushing the boundary now.
Ian |
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| ian****er - 2007-08-15 7:27 AM
Can anyone tell me how the meditation limb works in Ashtanga? Is it just at the end or can you meditate while you are doing the practice?
===> What Ashtanga? Ashtanga Yoga Exericse Style or Ashtanga Yoga of Classical Yoga System? They are different. What practice? Yoga Exercises or Practice of Living with yoga? I think you mean the former in both these cases. In that case, Meditation only can be done as focussing and it must be done.
In the later case, Meditation is independent of anything else and it must be done from the beginning to the end (of living) as possible.
I've just begun to feel an inner calm when I've finished my practice. Up until recently I was feeling a buzz from the primary series but now the effects seem to be going deeper.
===> Congratulations. Enjoy that calm and do any one of the above.
And no TE I'm still not getting airborne in headstand though I feel I'm pushing the boundary now.
===> You will soon get there!!!
Ian |
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| Neel,
I'm talking about ashtanga vinyasa yoga as taught by SKPJ which is what I thought was the focus of this particular forum. I think that it is called ashtanga because you are supposed to be able to incorporate all 8 limbs of yoga into the one practice though all the books and discussions I've seen and read seem to focus only on the asanas and vinyasas.
I was just wondering if anyone on the forum had managed to apply meditation whilst doing the primary series and if they had any advice on the subject.
Ian |
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| Hi Ian,
The style's correct name is Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga.
Some teachers do say that it incorporates all 8 limbs of Raja (Ashtanga) Yoga into the one practice though this is not totally correct. The first three series only focus on asana.
Once the advance series has been learnt, then SKPJ teaches Pranayama. To my knowledge he has not taught anyone meditation.
Jonathon
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| Basically you are asking about the last three limbs, Dharana, Dhyana, Samadhi.
I would say that Padmasana at the end of finishing is your opportunity to explore Dharana and Dhyana and Savasana is the opportunity to explore Dharana, Dhyana, and Samadhi.
Once the practice is committed to memory I do believe that entire practice can be meditative.
I think one of the critical things here it to remember the order of things. We take practice, and make the body strong. We take strong body and address the first two limbs (which are ethical). It is easier to be a good person when your body is healthy and the energy channels are open. Then we take strong body and will and address the mind and body connection with pranayama. Once breath is controlled, then we attempt to withdraw the senses on an inward journey(pratyhara), focus on a single point (Dharana). Once this is mastered, we meditate (dhyana) without distractions (body and mind calm and clear, no focus). Finally we might experience oneness (Samadhi).
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| There's really nothing to teach. You have to do the work yourself.
You have to take practice, be an ethical person, control the breath, free the mind, and experience it yourself.
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| Well put tampara eric, although it could be free the breath, control the mind  |
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| You say "control the mind". What is it that controls the mind? |
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| I guess Atman or self?
You control the fluctuations of the mind. Stillness, non-thinking...
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| Thanks. I'm still working on the how it all relates myself.
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| TampaEric - 2007-08-17 12:38 PM
I guess Atman or self?
You control the fluctuations of the mind. Stillness, non-thinking...
Who is the "you" that controls the fluctuations? |
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| I would say..
You is the self or Atman
Mind, body and spirit. |
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| Meditation practice begins with, with drawing of the senses and then moves on to concentration and meditation.
In the Practice of Ashtanga yoga the breath, bandhas, asana, drishti and the movement, which make up the vinyasa. Are all aides and tools to to start the process of withdrawal of sense, concentration, meditation and samandi.
So the whole of the process of ashtanga yoga from the very beginning is a tool to create a meditative state of mind.
You can apply the same techniques to a moving practise as well as a sitting one.
As you get deeper into the ashtanga practice (I do not mean 3'rd or 4'th series here, you apply these techniques from the first sun salutation) these tools or process become more integrated and aide in deeper or more expanded states of meditation.
It's good to remember that meditation is an after affect, you can't make it happen.
Hope this helps. Phil |
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| There is no difference between Pattabhi Jois Mysore style Ashtanga yoga and Patanjali's Ashtanga limbs of raj yoga. There are both, as for all lineages of yoga rooted in the same Vedas (knowledge) .
I don't know where people got the idea Pattabhi wasn't following Patanjali's sutras? |
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| jimg, the way I understand it is -
Patanjalis 2nd sutra says yoga is the control of thought waves in the mind. The mind (manas) and vrittis (thought waves) are brought under control by the atman. (Pure awareness) It is acheived by changing or transforming the samskaras (habits) If you identify with the thought waves then the mind is controlling us, every mind can become disciplined and one pointed, and it is acheived by seeing through the eyes of the soul.
we should allow our breath to be free,, let it find its own pace, and power, in asana practice the breath should be soft smooth and effortless, Some teachers get you to do a very loud dar-vader breath which is imposing and aggresive, I prefer my breath to find its own sound. There is no need to count the length, you can deepen the breath as long as it is in your capacity, without force.
Edited by raquel 2007-08-18 2:40 AM
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| Patanjali said "Yogaschitta vritti nirodhah" nirodhah means stopping or blocking the mind fluctuations "vritti".
You can not control the mind!
Any attempt to control the mind only add momentum to the mind more "vritti" of "chitta" |
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| Ok how about training, harnessing or mastering the mind ?
In the Bhagavad Gita Krishna says to Arjuna "The mind is indeed restless and hard to train. But by constant practice and by freedom from passions the mind can be trained"
and in Upanishads - "When consciousness rules the mind, with the mind we can think all thoughts."
How I understand is that we do have a choice and control over what we want to think or if we want to go with a thought or emotion, or if we want to let it pass. We can choose to think positively or negatively, this will have a profound effect on our mind and character, im not saying supression, just being aware of the random thoughts and feelings and realising which ones are pure and beneficial.
The Upanishads says "know the atman as lord of a chariot, the body as the chariot itself. Know that reason is the charioteer, and the mind is the reigns. The horses are the senses and their paths are objects of sense. He who has right understanding and whose mind is ever steady is the ruler of his life, like a good driver with well trained horses"
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| Hi all (and welcome Phil),
Firstly, the Yoga of the Bhagavad Gita and the Yoga of Patanjali's Sutras are very different. The end result is certainly the same though the approach is not.
When we discuss meditation, it is important to ask the question, why do we meditate? For what purpose?
Depending how one answers that question, depends on how correct the previous posts are.
From a Raja/Ashtanga perspective, the Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga of SKPJ is definately Raja Yoga in the sense that it incorporates all of Sri Patanjali's eight limbs.
Different Raja Yoga teachers approach the eight limbs in different ways. Some say that we should learn them sequentially and some say that we may practise all the limbs at once.
Regardless of which way we think is correct, both approaches look at the eight limbs as individual disciplines. It is only SKPJ (and not even his teacher Sri Krishnamacharya) who incorporates them into one dynamic asana practise.
If the purpose of Raja Yoga is to achieve self realisation through meditation, the most important question that a sincere seeker should ask is how many Ashtanga Vinyasa practitioners have achieved this?
Jonathon
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| Hey Phil: How R U? I was going to ask you a question. One part of that question has already been asked by Jonnie in his last post above me. See his last question. Now, my list of questions:
1. Your bottom first statement, actually all of them: Do you have any logic for this statement? If you prefer, I can ask you my question in a different way next time.
2. Jonnie's last question.
Namaste
Neel
Phil - 2007-08-17 6:20 PM
There is no difference between Pattabhi Jois Mysore style Ashtanga yoga and Patanjali's Ashtanga limbs of raj yoga. There are both, as for all lineages of yoga rooted in the same Vedas (knowledge) .
I don't know where people got the idea Pattabhi wasn't following Patanjali's sutras? |
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| Everybody here is repeating what somebody else has said. I think that the point here is to find out for yourself. To ask yourself what controls the mind. To really find out. Otherwise it is like quoting what other people, no matter how brilliant, have said about swimming. |
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| After posting the above, I started to read "Dynamic Yoga" by Godfrey Devereux. He writes:
"If you approach your practice with the sole intention of reaching a predetermined goal, you run a great risk. That is of ignoring yourself, your feelings, your capabilities. your limits, your needs, just as you are. All sacrificed on the sanctified alter of your desires. But in the end there is nothing for you to find other than yourself. No matter how long you spend chasing the wild geese of noble aspirations, if they are not part of who and what you are you will be lost in the chase. But, if you simply set out to find out, exhaustively, who and what you are you may find that you are something more brilliant and wonderful than anything you may have heard or dreamed of." |
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| Hi All, it's nice to feel so welcome.
Hi raquuel.
I think your looking at free choice.
And here we have to be very honest about how much the interplay of reaction, conditioning and even fate play in your choices.
You can have negative and positive choices and change your conditioning but your still in a conditioned mind.
maybe we could look at "choiceless awareness" as an idea? I'm not sure?
The verse you quoted is from. Bhagavad Gita; Ch,1. Verse,14
Hi jonnie.
In a way the Gita and the Sutras aren't that different.
The Gita presents the many approaches to yoga in the frame work of a story and the Sutras are a condensed collection of how yoga was approached at the time of Patanjail. Really at root the same core knowledge.
Obviously we can, and should, approach the limbs from anyway that best suits the practitioner.
And certainly no one from the PKS school of thought has become realised (not to my knowledge)
But in a lot of high disciplines of say Kriya yoga you are engaging in all the practices of mudra, breath, asana, etc, in the process.
But don't get me wrong I'm not really promoting PKS style ashtanga at it is taught globally today.
But inside the practise there is a powerful tool for enquiry.
hi kulkarnn,
Logic? OK. It's very hard to use the mind to control the mind as the only thing your using is the mind and by that giving more energy to the mind. End result a headache!
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| jimg - 2007-08-19 8:36 PM
Everybody here is repeating what somebody else has said. I think that the point here is to find out for yourself. To ask yourself what controls the mind. To really find out. Otherwise it is like quoting what other people, no matter how brilliant, have said about swimming.
...and to demonstrate this point, you immediately repeat what someone else said
Jonathon
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| Thanks for the reply Phil.
These are the aspects of Yoga that I am most interested in and happiest discussing.
Jonathon
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| jonnie - 2007-08-18 1:42 PM
jimg - 2007-08-19 8:36 PM
Everybody here is repeating what somebody else has said. I think that the point here is to find out for yourself. To ask yourself what controls the mind. To really find out. Otherwise it is like quoting what other people, no matter how brilliant, have said about swimming.
...and to demonstrate this point, you immediately repeat what someone else said
Maybe I need to clarify: Everybody seems to be repeating what someone else said about their mind and its relationship to itself. Only you can know your own mind. We all repeat what others have said on a variety of subjects as that is part of learning, but you don't get self-awareness, self-realization, from repeating others as the only way to see the relationship of the different aspects of yourself, to bring them into harmony, is by finding out for yourself who you are and what you are.
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Ashtanga and Meditation
