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What is God
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-08-10 11:18 PM (#93967 - in reply to #93953)
Subject: RE: What is God


Hey jimg: Can you please give an example of this. It is going slightly tangent to me. I have an example in a material way. For example, I hope you agree that if you see feces (correct spelling? excreata of a human being or animal) on a road which is smelling bad. Now, that is dirty or ugly. Do you mean to say the cause of it is in me? And, I should not suppress something or what.

In Yoga Philosophy, when something is not good, then the student is supposed to develop an attitude of disconnection (upekshaa) towards it, if the student is following a path of meditation. If that not good thing starts bothering the student even after upeksha, then the student is going to destroy that thing if ncessary, as per the student's background. For example, in the Shrimad Bhagavadgita quoted by you, the path which Arjun is supposed to take is: to destroy the evil. Whereas, evil can not do anything to Shree Krishna, so he does not have to fight. But, even then he participates to set an example to others. The fight in Geeta is different from the wars which are generally fought in the world.




jimg - 2007-08-10 5:14 PM

SCThornley:" The ugly part of reality is still reality
you don't have to accept it
but what is, is"

Absolutely, but if you see the cause of that ugliness in yourself through self awareness, you will understand it and it will no longer influence your actions. If on the other hand you see the ugliness (in yourself or others), decide that it is wrong and therefore suppress it in yourself, it is still there and is still influencing your actions but you no longer see it as it is suppressed.
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Posted 2007-08-11 12:11 AM (#93971 - in reply to #93967)
Subject: RE: What is God


I am talking about internal things like greed or violence etc, not external things like feces (even though it starts out as internal). Being aware of greed (for example), understanding it, and therefore releasing attachment to it, as opposed to seeing greed, deeming it bad or ugly and suppressing it and therefore keeping the attachment but blocking the awareness.
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-08-11 12:45 PM (#94002 - in reply to #93971)
Subject: RE: What is God


Oh I see. Thanks for clarification. So, let me now go into internal thing expample. Suppose you are working for a boss who is greedy and to make his salary higher, he is slogging you (in my respected BBB's words ' your a$$'!) a lot. Now, you see greed in his eyes. What do you think one should with the boss.


jimg - 2007-08-11 12:11 AM

I am talking about internal things like greed or violence etc, not external things like feces (even though it starts out as internal). Being aware of greed (for example), understanding it, and therefore releasing attachment to it, as opposed to seeing greed, deeming it bad or ugly and suppressing it and therefore keeping the attachment but blocking the awareness.
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Posted 2007-08-11 7:56 PM (#94014 - in reply to #94002)
Subject: RE: What is God


As I was talking about your greed or my greed (internal) and not the greed of another person (external), I cannot give any advice about what to do without understanding the relationship. I need to understand my greed (or whatever) and release attachment to it. Through better understanding my greed, I also better understand greed in general. I still only have control over myself and not others. Although I believe that if you set a good example others will follow, this isn't always true.
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-08-11 11:24 PM (#94019 - in reply to #93484)
Subject: RE: What is God


Dear jimg: I do not know whether I am getting your point. Or, whether you are getting my question. If you are saying that one should work on themselves and that is the only control they have, and they can not change others much, then I am with you. But, if you are saying that there is no greed in others and there is nothing to do there, I disagree.
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Posted 2007-08-12 2:28 AM (#94022 - in reply to #94019)
Subject: RE: What is God


kulkarnn - 2007-08-11 11:24 PM

Dear jimg: I do not know whether I am getting your point. Or, whether you are getting my question. If you are saying that one should work on themselves and that is the only control they have, and they can not change others much, then I am with you. But, if you are saying that there is no greed in others and there is nothing to do there, I disagree.


Neel,
I am saying that we can only control ourselves. I am reluctant to say anything about how best to deal with greed in others. It is of course there. The only answer I can give is to set a good example and if appropriate, attempt to help their awareness so that they can understand their greed as I can only understand mine.
Namaste,
Jim
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-08-12 3:13 PM (#94037 - in reply to #94022)
Subject: RE: What is God


Thanks for clarification. Gee. Brother SCT wrote one line and then you a quick statement. I could not derive the following from that.

jimg - 2007-08-12 2:28 AM

kulkarnn - 2007-08-11 11:24 PM

Dear jimg: I do not know whether I am getting your point. Or, whether you are getting my question. If you are saying that one should work on themselves and that is the only control they have, and they can not change others much, then I am with you. But, if you are saying that there is no greed in others and there is nothing to do there, I disagree.


Neel,
I am saying that we can only control ourselves. I am reluctant to say anything about how best to deal with greed in others. It is of course there. The only answer I can give is to set a good example and if appropriate, attempt to help their awareness so that they can understand their greed as I can only understand mine.
Namaste,
Jim
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SCThornley
Posted 2007-08-12 9:48 PM (#94043 - in reply to #93953)
Subject: RE: What is God


jimg - 2007-08-10 5:14 PM

SCThornley:" The ugly part of reality is still reality
you don't have to accept it
but what is, is"

Absolutely, but if you see the cause of that ugliness in yourself through self awareness, you will understand it and it will no longer influence your actions. If on the other hand you see the ugliness (in yourself or others), decide that it is wrong and therefore suppress it in yourself, it is still there and is still influencing your actions but you no longer see it as it is suppressed.


I'm part of reality, not reality itself

I'm not projecting

I'm merely saying that "for me", reality is God, all of reality, the totality, not just the parts that I like or even the parts that I can rationalize into something that I can make peace with, but all of it.

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jonnie
Posted 2007-08-13 10:03 AM (#94055 - in reply to #94043)
Subject: RE: What is God


SCThornley - 2007-08-13 5:48 AM

I'm part of reality, not reality itself

I'm not projecting



Actually, you are reality itself.

Ultimately, there is only God and nothing but God (whatever we choose to call it) and everything else is an illusion.

Jonathon
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-08-13 12:25 PM (#94062 - in reply to #93484)
Subject: RE: What is God


I am actually lost as far as the last 5 or six postings are concerned. But, I am enjoying anyway.
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SCThornley
Posted 2007-08-13 12:47 PM (#94063 - in reply to #94055)
Subject: RE: What is God


jonnie - 2007-08-13 10:03 AM

SCThornley - 2007-08-13 5:48 AM

I'm part of reality, not reality itself

I'm not projecting



Actually, you are reality itself.

Ultimately, there is only God and nothing but God (whatever we choose to call it) and everything else is an illusion.

Jonathon


thank you, that's got me right where I belong
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Posted 2007-08-13 1:20 PM (#94069 - in reply to #94055)
Subject: RE: What is God


Aren't we both part of reality (self) and reality itself (Self) at the same time?

OR

Aren't we both individual consciousness and cosmic consciousness at the same time?

AND

If the goal of Yoga is the Union of the individual consciousness with the cosmic consciousness, then they must both exist.



Edited by jimg 2007-08-13 1:35 PM
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jonnie
Posted 2007-08-13 3:00 PM (#94081 - in reply to #93484)
Subject: RE: What is God


Perfect timing.

This 'thought of the day' from Swami Sivananda, just arrived in my inbox:

The human soul, being in fact a part and parcel of the Infinite Existence, is in its essential nature identical with it. Being set awhirling in this cycle of the world process, veiled from the knowledge of its essential Divinity and its Consciousness severely limited by the encasing sheaths of Matter, the Jiva ever seeks to put an end to this separation, limitation and the sense of incompleteness that it feels. Through successive incarnations, its life constitutes a constant reaching forth towards its Primal abode of Infinite, Immortal Blissful Existence and until that state is attained, each centre of individualised ego-consciousness will keep up this restless quest on the upward path of evolution. Through every moment humanity as a whole is inevitably and irresistibly being drawn up towards that Ideal State of Perfect Existence.

Jonathon

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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-08-13 10:21 PM (#94093 - in reply to #94069)
Subject: RE: What is God


When the individual existence is realized as Body, then person is still in the gross world. When, it is realized as Mind, then a person is in a evolved status. (This person is called : Ego, Ahankaara). When the person intially realizes the Individual Consciousness which is beyond the Body and Mind, that is the Soul, then the person is still different from the Cosmic Consciousness and has attained Samadhi State. When the individual consciousness completely merges into the Cosmic One, then the part becomes the whole, the Yogi becomes the saint, and the Union takes place. This is called Liberation.


jimg - 2007-08-13 1:20 PM

Aren't we both part of reality (self) and reality itself (Self) at the same time?

OR

Aren't we both individual consciousness and cosmic consciousness at the same time?

AND

If the goal of Yoga is the Union of the individual consciousness with the cosmic consciousness, then they must both exist.

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Mellish
Posted 2007-09-26 12:20 PM (#96988 - in reply to #93484)
Subject: RE: What is God


>>If the goal of Yoga is the Union of the individual consciousness with the cosmic consciousness, then they must both exist.

It may be better to come at this via Buddhist thought - if all is truly one-ness, then there is no need for union. What's needed instead is recognition of the true nature of self, rather thinking in terms of barriers of consciousness or planes of existence that stand in our way as we try to reach enlightenment. Barriers and planes don't matter on an ultimate basis, they're just you as Self, so to focus on them takes the meditator away from directly perceiving what he already is. The 'jewel in the hem of the monk's coat' is something we all possess. We build prisons of teachings, instead of just pointing our attention at our true nature and acknowledging what we are - and can never move away from being.

I tend to think of Self in the body of the self as being something that's lost its memory. My job is to remind it of what it really is, so that it's no longer deluded by samsaric reality, nor fixated upon 'doing'.

M

Edited by Mellish 2007-09-26 12:23 PM
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-09-26 1:01 PM (#96999 - in reply to #96988)
Subject: RE: What is God


What you described is 'another door of the same prison of Teaching called Buddhism'. But, do not worry, there can not be doors without prison or prison without doors!!!


Mellish - 2007-09-26 12:20 PM

>>If the goal of Yoga is the Union of the individual consciousness with the cosmic consciousness, then they must both exist.

It may be better to come at this via Buddhist thought - if all is truly one-ness, then there is no need for union. What's needed instead is recognition of the true nature of self, rather thinking in terms of barriers of consciousness or planes of existence that stand in our way as we try to reach enlightenment. Barriers and planes don't matter on an ultimate basis, they're just you as Self, so to focus on them takes the meditator away from directly perceiving what he already is. The 'jewel in the hem of the monk's coat' is something we all possess. We build prisons of teachings, instead of just pointing our attention at our true nature and acknowledging what we are - and can never move away from being.

I tend to think of Self in the body of the self as being something that's lost its memory. My job is to remind it of what it really is, so that it's no longer deluded by samsaric reality, nor fixated upon 'doing'.

M
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Mellish
Posted 2007-09-26 4:14 PM (#97018 - in reply to #93484)
Subject: RE: What is God


Ahhh, I see. You're the local thought police, against everything that isn't what you think is true. I guess what you think is true is solely hindu-based, hence your anger? You're not what I normally expect of your tradition I have to say. You seem fearful of Buddhism somehow, rather than accepting of other schools and beliefs, as others in Hinduism are. Mother frightened by a Tulku at some point? Bad experience with a smiling bald man?

I personally came here to learn and share where I can, not teach or convert. What I've said about mind and one-ness appears just as stronly in Hindu literature as it does Buddhist. We're so close on so many counts that there's only hair between us.

I'm not here to argue about who's right and wrong - we all are to the same degree. If we can share ideas and techniques then perhaps we can both grow. I thought that was a fairly safe assumption to make on such an enlightened forum?

We have a choice now to either have a stupid argument about how awful Buddhism is and how wonderful what you believe is, and why I really should try to help someone so advanced as you are - or just say hello, nice to meet you and walk away. Which seems the better choice?

M

Edited by Mellish 2007-09-26 4:14 PM
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-09-26 5:59 PM (#97021 - in reply to #93484)
Subject: RE: What is God


Hurray Darling Mellish!

I admire your conclusion!

Before I can say anything more on this, I request you to read your earlier post line by line, then read your above response line by line, compare them, and then read the topic of the Post, and let me know you have done so. This is NOT 'Englightened Bulletin Board'. It is a Discussion Board. And, unfortnately or fotunately, discussion is in a way a kind of arguement. But, if you do not wish to discuss, that is another matter.

I wish you peace.

Your Angry Friend.
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Cyndi
Posted 2007-09-26 7:30 PM (#97027 - in reply to #96999)
Subject: RE: What is God



Expert Yogi

Posts: 5098
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC
kulkarnn - 2007-09-26 1:01 PM

What you described is 'another door of the same prison of Teaching called Buddhism'. But, do not worry, there can not be doors without prison or prison without doors!!!



Actually, NB, I would like for you to expound upon this statement further. You can e-mail me privately if you feel more comfortable that way. Thanks.
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-09-26 10:22 PM (#97032 - in reply to #93484)
Subject: RE: What is God


Dear CB: Thanks for the opportunity. Because, many times my (correct!!!) English statements are misunderstood by the English people! What I mean is in response to the Mellish's post: Please the entire of it above, but it ends in:

We build prisons of teachings, instead of just pointing our attention at our true nature and acknowledging what we are - and can never move away from being.
I tend to think of Self in the body of the self as being something that's lost its memory. My job is to remind it of what it really is, so that it's no longer deluded by samsaric reality, nor fixated upon 'doing'.

Now, what I am saying is:

a) There is no question that above statements are extension of Buddhistic philosophy.

b) The above statements are also a kind of Teaching, just like other teachins such as Union explained earlier. And, if we are building prisons of Teachings, then these are all doors of that same prison.

c) and, lastly, and importantly what I am stating is: do not worry. All prisons require doors and all doors belong to some kind of prisons. That means all the above teachings are required and also prisons are required. Both are integral part of the path to Salvation.

d) And, there is NO need to state that: Instead of the path of Union, one should rather look at it from another angle. Whatever is good in any path should be taken. And, one can enter the prison from any door. And go out of the prison from any door, as well.

e) And, if one is interested in comparing the paths, one should be ready for hearing arguementation.
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tweeva
Posted 2007-09-27 6:57 AM (#97044 - in reply to #97032)
Subject: RE: What is God



Veteran

Posts: 101
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Quoting out of context:
kulkarnn - 2007-09-25 4:22 AM

That means all the above teachings are required and also prisons are required. Both are integral part of the path to Salvation.


Neel, could you please elaborate on this one?

Tw

Edited by tweeva 2007-09-27 6:58 AM
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Mellish
Posted 2007-09-27 7:58 AM (#97052 - in reply to #97021)
Subject: RE: What is God


kulkarnn - 2007-09-26 5:59 PM

Hurray Darling Mellish!

I admire your conclusion!

Before I can say anything more on this, I request you to read your earlier post line by line, then read your above response line by line, compare them, and then read the topic of the Post, and let me know you have done so. This is NOT 'Englightened Bulletin Board'. It is a Discussion Board. And, unfortnately or fotunately, discussion is in a way a kind of arguement. But, if you do not wish to discuss, that is another matter.

I wish you peace.



LOL! Still with the angry. Read your posts, read the OP. Still relevant, though a little to one side. Do you have a problem 'angry friend'? I make two posts that I thought were just being helpful and you leap on both as though I'd commited heinous crimes, when in fact,what I said is identical for both Hinduism and Buddhism?

However, if you really DO know what you're talking about you'll also understand that my message was expedient means, relevant to the level of question (ie, Mahamudra in Buddhism). If you'd like to go one stage higher into Dzogchen then of course we can't talk about mind/no mind, existence/non-existence. All is beyond restrictions and extremes and therefore any conceptualisation will certainly become a prison - IF you cling to it. However, Buddhism and Hinduism take pains to point out to their practitioners that all teaching up until the final level and actual direct exprience is always expedient means, and not the final story. If we were to talk in terms of the Ultimate view then we coul;dn't even have a conversation about it,because there would be nothing either of us could say. So we have to use relative terms, establish that we're all onthesame page, then move upwards. If you DO understand One-ness then it's not right not to allow anyone to speak in a way that those with lesser knowledge than you can understand. It's like pulling the ladder up behind yourself if you charge anyone who speaks in relative terms with being wrong or in a prison. You become destructive, not helpful.

It's really unfortunate. I assumed that between us all here we could share knowledge from our traditions in a way that would be helpful to both. But all you're concerned with is your ego and how little you want to be seen to be helped from your position of vast understanding. I'm sure you're a lovely, lovely person, but you might want to try and sort out your paranoia before accusing anyone of doing missionary work here.



M
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-09-27 8:14 AM (#97055 - in reply to #97044)
Subject: RE: What is God


The term prison and door is not necessary in my explanation. It is taken due to the usage of the term Prison by Mellish. So, let us leave aside these two terms now. And, call these two terms by one term "Methodology". What I am saying is:

- Methodology evolves out of Context, Geography, Culture, as well as Philosophy. For example: Suppose one particular religion evolves out of a personality which helped the people out of oppression. The teachings of that religious Methodology shall have lot of elements related to the removal of oppression. That particular element may not be applicable to another place where the oppression does not exist.

- There are some universal truths. These may or may not be present in all the methodologies.

- There are some Universal B.S.s. And, these should not be present in any Methodology. For example, there should be NO methodology where an 18 year old young girl should marry 70 year old man.

- So, all methodologies are needed depeneding on the context and needs.

- However, to state: It may be better to come at this via Buddhist thought is WRONG.






tweeva - 2007-09-27 6:57 AM

Quoting out of context:
kulkarnn - 2007-09-25 4:22 AM

That means all the above teachings are required and also prisons are required. Both are integral part of the path to Salvation.


Neel, could you please elaborate on this one?

Tw
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-09-27 8:17 AM (#97056 - in reply to #97052)
Subject: RE: What is God


Darling Mellish: Please see my above responses to CB and Tweeva. That is the final I have to say to you in this thread.


Mellish - 2007-09-27 7:58 AM

kulkarnn - 2007-09-26 5:59 PM

Hurray Darling Mellish!

I admire your conclusion! ETC.

I wish you peace.



LOL! Still with the angry. ETC.
M
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Cyndi
Posted 2007-09-27 9:01 AM (#97061 - in reply to #97056)
Subject: RE: What is God



Expert Yogi

Posts: 5098
5000252525
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC
Thank you NB, that was a BEAUTIFUL explanation.

Mellish...you need to chill out. I can assure you that Neel is not angry. He's really like that little fat laughing Buddha guy...only NB is skinny,
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