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| I don't see how you could clearly convince yourself that Gandhi had any violence within him.
His form of resistance was a new approach to violence.
His life was a great example of living what one preaches.
I don't see how he hurt anyone, he laid the foundation for the present situation of sovereignty enjoyed by a previously subjugated people.
Now, I do think he would make a better action figure than John the baptist. |
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| http://www.mkgandhi.org/nonviolence/index.htm |
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| SCThornley - 2007-08-02 12:42 PM
I don't see how he hurt anyone, he laid the foundation for the present situation of sovereignty enjoyed by a previously subjugated people.
He deliberately starved himself, doing harm to himself. Further his approach distressed the people around him, to the point that he was able to galvanize a change. |
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| GreenJello - 2007-08-02 12:52 PM
SCThornley - 2007-08-02 12:42 PM
I don't see how he hurt anyone, he laid the foundation for the present situation of sovereignty enjoyed by a previously subjugated people.
He deliberately starved himself, doing harm to himself. Further his approach distressed the people around him, to the point that he was able to galvanize a change.
well, you've made your point, but what he did was hardly what I consider a violent act.
His will was solid, I don't consider it violent. |
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| Gandhi often said that while there were causes he was prepared to die for, there was no cause that he was prepared to kill for.
His actions started the non violent civil disobedience movement which was continued by people such as Martin luther King Jr etc.
Jonathon |
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| i think that there is a difference.
i think that it's part of human nature to find things or to know things that one is willing to die for. it's entirely another as to what one is willing to kill for.
it should be noted that in the female archetype, there is a focus on nourishing and supporting life, but there is also an understanding of the transitonal process and often necessity of death. in the lore, there is the opportunity to kill--euthanasia being the issue (mercy killing).
it is understood to be it's own violence, and not be be undertaken lightly.
i think the same is true of the male protective/defensive violence. it's one thing to stand up willing to die, being willing to kill is another. there is a space for it (maybe not in ghandi's life, but there is an entire warrior class in the tradition--so there is a sense of duty to that).
the difficulty--as with the woman's modes of dealing in death--is when it is appropriate. |
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| ZB, I think you've touched on something here.
There is tradition in the warrior class, however, have we not come far enough to realize that there must be something better that we can be?
When we consider possible other worlds and other civilizations, do we consider them in the filtered perception of a colonialist, or a warrior?
We must find some way to progress, and engage our higher purpose, and maybe it starts with play, maybe it doesn't come until later.
IDK. |
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| i think it's important to note that a warrior class doesn't necessarily mean that people are at war or war-like.
the purpose of such a class, and such training if there isn't a specific class for it, is so that should the need arise, there are people able to protect their families and community. i also think that the warrior class extends into ideas of policing and the 'justice system' overall--and while i'd prefer that take a more reformation approach rather than punitive, it still includes an aspect of policing. it doesn't necessarily focus on colonialism--in ancient or modern hegemonic interpretations.
i also wonder if there's a baby-with-the-bathwater problem. is it possible for individuals to both get this training and understand the nature of this process of violence, and either in spite of that or through that training come to a higher understanding of the nature of peace? could it be argued that through the attainment of this knowledge and skills, individuals are more inclined to peace because of the self knowledge that this information imparts?
i have found for myself that men who have little or no physical training tend to either be 'soft' (in mind and body) and/or enraged and frustrated. they are either apathetic (and therefore not men) or they are very angry and the violent energy, instead of being understood and appropriately channeled, is coming out in really amazing ways (emotional or verbal abuse being an example).
whereas, those individuals who participated in physical activities that mirrored 'combat' (sports, martial arts, war games, policing games, etc) tend to have a better understanding of the energy of 'violence' (or energy that can be used for or against violence) and how to channel that energy in appropriate and positive ways.
and because of this, are more self aware and less likely to be violent.
i think the same is true with women's knowledge--and much of our knowledge is also lost or misplaced in the modern world. |
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| This link opens up to the BBC video and audio feed page:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/video_and_audio/default.stm
'Look at the war veterans heal with abused parrots' feed...
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| you've really touched a sweet spot, ZB, I simply can not go there.
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| zoebird - 2007-08-03 9:46 PM
i also wonder if there's a baby-with-the-bathwater problem. is it possible for individuals to both get this training and understand the nature of this process of violence, and either in spite of that or through that training come to a higher understanding of the nature of peace? could it be argued that through the attainment of this knowledge and skills, individuals are more inclined to peace because of the self knowledge that this information imparts?
I think it is possible but also very rare.
It's the paradox of the martial arts that the mastery of a lethal skill will eventually bring a sense of peace. The practitioner realizes that because they have the ability to be so violent, they don't need to be.
As I said above, it is possible though rare. Most end up like the poor vets in the parrot clip I posted, broken, angry and unable to process the negative emotions they they experience.
Ultimately, it is love not violence that conquers all.
Jonathon
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| well said, thank you. |
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| jonnie - 2007-08-02 2:41 PM
I think it is possible but also very rare.
It's the paradox of the martial arts that the mastery of a lethal skill will eventually bring a sense of peace. The practitioner realizes that because they have the ability to be so violent, they don't need to be.
As I said above, it is possible though rare. Most end up like the poor vets in the parrot clip I posted, broken, angry and unable to process the negative emotions they they experience.
That's been my experience too, though I think it's because these people aren't completely done with the process. I've noticed a number of martial arts practioners who come down with "karate-itis", which is the strong desire to channel all that violent energy out, in the forms of punches and kicks. Instead of training to channel that energy, they instead tend to cultivate it, and then turn around and use this power to intimate the people around them. Sometimes it's just the beginners who are falling into this trap, sometimes it extends all the way to the teachers themselves.
I know personally that this isn't what I need to be doing with my life. I got started down that road a number of times, and each time something got in the way. For some odd reason every time I'd rise to the rank of yellow belt (which is the second belt after beginner) the dojo would close, or something else would happen that would prevent me from continueing the training. The last time it happened I decided to go into the local yoga studio instead to get my exercise. I'm really glad I did. 
Edited by GreenJello 2007-08-02 3:10 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Wow, this is an interesting thread. Geez, I can't wait till they come out with the Mahabarat Toys...wouldn't that just beat all, |
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| I like
paint/construction paper/crafts/crayons/art
legos
any kind of music
and bubbles
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| Cyndi - 2007-08-02 3:16 PM
Wow, this is an interesting thread. Geez, I can't wait till they come out with the Mahabarat Toys...wouldn't that just beat all,
I'm not going to touch that one with a 10' pole. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | GreenJello - 2007-08-02 5:09 PM
Cyndi - 2007-08-02 3:16 PM
Wow, this is an interesting thread. Geez, I can't wait till they come out with the Mahabarat Toys...wouldn't that just beat all,
I'm not going to touch that one with a 10' pole.
Yea, and then comes the little Tibetan Buddhist Diety figurines, they're pretty darn scary, Then, we have Kali....oh boy, this is gonna be fun,  |
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| Cyndi - 2007-08-02 6:10 PM
Yea, and then comes the little Tibetan Buddhist Diety figurines, they're pretty darn scary, Then, we have Kali....oh boy, this is gonna be fun,
Which is the _real_ reason I'm a Taoist, no scary action figures..... |
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| i think that there is a difference between warriors and modern soldiery, between modern and ancient warfare techniques, and it's impact on individuals and groups.
it might also be pointed out that there is a difference in the way that society understands and 'feels' war as a whole, and how warriors are integrated before battle and reintegrated after battle--if the fairy tales, myths, and legends are right about this.
so, i find it problematic to discuss modern vets and their struggles (due to their training, the nature of the war that they're in and why, and the inability to have them integrated and reintegrated into society because we currently do not have mechanisms for that process and have not since WW2 as far as i can tell) and compare that to the archetypal structures within the spiritual processes of men as reflected in traditional or tribal warrior structures.
in truth, they're two completely different aspects--one being a mere shadow of the potential of the other, in both meaning and function.
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| today's modern soldiers are no less than the mythical greatness of an archetype you hold in the imprint in your mind, they are more, they are real flesh and blood.
The story never lives up to the reality and imagination is like a stale cracker compared to actual battle.
But, I'd prefer the stale cracker please, I'm planning on being very old with children and grandchildren and great grandchildren.
I feel the loss of each drop of blood lost by every modern day soldier-warrior and wish it wasn't so, but that's the way it is and that's the way it always has been and I pray for the day when everyone realizes that we have more to offer and we have better choices and better options on the table of reality than violence, than aggressiveness, than the feelings of possessiveness.
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| sct:
i know that modern soldiers are 'real flesh and blood' and they're also 'real spirit beings.'
but i'm talking about a functional difference between soldiery and warrior processes--not individual soldiers.
i believe that we're talking about two different things. i'm not glorifying anything, nor do i glorify violence.
instead, i'm looking to the stories as an instructional tool for understanding the psyche and spiritual nature a la Jungian theory. i'm looking to how these stories are active in our daily lives in mundane and practical ways, how they impact our spiritual lives and self-knowledge, and how they can instruct us in the process of developing enlightenment.
but, in order to understand where these questions are coming from, one first has to agree that jungian theory has value, and that it isn't about "pie in the sky fictionalizations" over 'real flesh and blood people" but rather a deep exploration of the human psyche and spirit through human experience housed in our lore and mythos.
this is not about violence 'per se' nor about advocating it, nor about saying that one shouldn't strive to live long, healthy, and prosperous. but, that in order to do so, we must have dynamic spirit lives.
if i am in the process of caring for and raising another 'full' human being, i feel that the psychic and spiritual aspects are no less important than the physical ones and that finding appropriate methods for fostering the development of that individual's spirit life, as well as questioning how that can be done effectively in a modern context that is often so divorced from certain spiritual notions, ideas, or realities is appropriate.
i am not advocating 'battle experience' or that individuals need to go to battle--but that "battle" can be synonymous with the interior human spiritual struggle. i am begging the question as to whether or not male children, specifically, need some form or opportunity for unhindered play expressions in these realms (ie, rough play and role play in ways that many consider "violent" such as wrestling, throwing rocks, running and chasing each other, etc) as well as formalized expressions (such as sports, training in specific martial arts, hunting skills, and/or the like), and if this helps foster the interior, spiritual development to follow those 'hero arcs.'
on the whole, a post over written. 
Edited by zoebird 2007-08-03 6:49 AM
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| Hy zoe, I love Jungian psychology !!
boys need to have rough play, they instinctively are more active, if we dont offer it to them they will vent it in a much more negative way. Just like SCT said even if you dont buy guns they will make one out of a stick, so theres no point in getting stressed about it.
I have 2 boys and I can see how different they are from girls, there is a definite pecking order when a group of boys play together, (girls are more relaxed about this) Boys instinctively want to become the hero, they crave action, whether its chasing, throwing, shooting, playing out battles, its all part of their nature - they cant help it - I just let mine get on with it, as long as no-one is getting hurt. My son is always making dens and bases, it doesnt matter were we go he has a strong desire to build his castle!
Boys will always be boys, we cant force them to change, their nature, it would probably frustrate them and have an adverse effect
I think organised things like the cub scouts, martial arts, athletics, sports are all exellent ways to channel the male energy, I also take mine on long walks, camping etc (adventures)
I once watched a documentary that said it was very important particularly for boys to have rough and tumble "horse" play with their fathers, they would develop more emotionally than those that didnt. |
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| I have 2 boys and I can see how different they are from girls, there is a definite pecking order when a group of boys play together, (girls are more relaxed about this)
Hi Raquel, I think it's that girls are more subtle about this, not that their more relaxed. I have two girls so I'm witnessing the opposite end of the spectrum. |
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| I think it isnt as far up the agenda!! With boys the testosterone seems to make them more competitive too. I often used to wonder why i was blessed with boys on not girls, they are such hard work, suppose it all changes as they get older though |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | This talk reminds me of when I was a kid. I had 2 other sisters and 1 brother, total of 4 children in our family. We lived across the street from 3 boys when I was growing up. My older sister really didn't participate in our neighborhood rompings as she was 4 years older than me and my younger sister. So, me and younger sister and brother were pretty much left to our own devices when it came to neighborhood play and sometimes...it was WAR!!!
I'll never forget the times me and sister would have a huge fort built high up into the trees, only to come back a day later to find it destroyed by the 3 boys accross the street. Then, they would steal our lumber and all. So, we'd have to go steal it back. Sometimes it got pretty darn nasty to the point where once, one of them shot me in the arm with his BB gun. Man was I pissed. The other time one of them put a fist of mud right smack in my eye (we lived on a lake too). This is when I became a Tom Boy and put on my warrior hat. You talk about scared....we scared the hell out of those boys and set them straight.
It got so bad that once their Mother came over with them to tell my Father what we did to them. We just did what innocent girls did and told my Daddy the "real" truth...he understood completely and of course, we didn't get in trouble. Those boys ended up in bigger trouble than us. It was hilarious growing up in our neighborhood. Talk about natural justice, heehee. If you play, you pay. Don't mess with girls, |
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Faith Based Toys!!
