|
|
| What every child will be asking their parent's for Christmas???
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6916287.stm
Jonathon
|
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
    
| Good thing they are marketing toys not involved with any sort of violence  Seems to be there is a fair dose of smiting and rock throwing etc. in Bible stories (if memory serves...) - not to mention all that "begetting"...  |
|
| |
|
| tourist - 2007-07-31 11:25 AM
Seems to be there is a fair dose of smiting and rock throwing etc. in Bible stories (if memory serves... ) - not to mention all that "begetting"...
Actually, there are tales of deliberate and gleeful genocide, adultry, misogyny, murder, lying, deceit, child sacrifice, and that's just the "good" guys..... |
|
| |
|
| Yes
all in God's Creation and with God's full blessing and interest and control
that's reality
|
|
| |
|
| i saw a thing about this (including interviews with the toy makers and distributors) on TBN (christian tv channel). it was interesting.
one of the hosts/pastors, a mother of 3, recommended to the audience (that's me) that we simply decrease our children's interest in consuming by decreasing their exposure to advertising as much as possible. while she agreed that these faith-based toys were 'good,' she also noted that many of the stories were violent and still not something that she wanted her young sons to act out. She told the toy maker "i'd rather my sons play john the baptist than play david and goliath. i think they're too young to understand the whole nuances of David's story, and how war is wrong but battle plays a part in that era, time, and place, and how faith wins us out over time. Praise Jesus for that! but, i'm not sure i want them acting out such violent stories."
every once in a while, TBN gives me just the tiniest glimmer of hope. it seems to me that this mother was anti all violent toys--including those inspired by the bible--and was asserting herself as a pacifist.
who woulda thunk it? |
|
| |
|
| http://tinyurl.com/2tuf3n
I still think pirates win |
|
| |
|
| zoebird - 2007-07-31 3:57 PM
one of the hosts/pastors, a mother of 3, recommended to the audience (that's me) that we simply decrease our children's interest in consuming by decreasing their exposure to advertising as much as possible.
Sounds pretty good.
while she agreed that these faith-based toys were 'good,' she also noted that many of the stories were violent and still not something that she wanted her young sons to act out. She told the toy maker "i'd rather my sons play john the baptist than play david and goliath.
Hmmm.... hasn't read the part about his imprisonment, followed by the extremely lascivious dancing (read lap dance) that Herod's daughter did for the court that resulted in him getting beheaded has she?
I don't want to come across as completely anti-Christian or anti-bible, but I think the people really have the wrong idea about the contents of this book. It's definitely not all rainbows and fluffy bunnies, quite the opposite. |
|
| |
|
| The interpretation of Good News in the Bible is a rather strange one if you ask me......
Yeah, I know about salvation and stuff but there's plenty of suffering to go around.
I read quite a bit to my second youngest daughter and my wife had to ask that I not read any more because of the extremely explicit parts about incest and murder and rape.....
The bible might be the book of life, however it's also the book of other things like death, suffering, pain, PUNISHMENT, lots and lots of PUNISHMENT, trickery, treachery, back stabbing, adultery, lust, and so on and so forth......
certainly not bright shiny rainbows and fluffy unicorn Barbie stories |
|
| |
|
| SCThornley - 2007-08-01 12:13 AM
http://tinyurl.com/2tuf3n
I still think pirates win
That's hilarious 
|
|
| |
|
| jonnie - 2007-07-31 10:40 PM
SCThornley - 2007-08-01 12:13 AM
http://tinyurl.com/2tuf3n
I still think pirates win
That's hilarious
thank you,
we must, MUST, make time to laugh
that's, like, the 11th commandment!! |
|
| |
|
| GJ:
i'm not arguing the validity of christianity, just acknowledging that this particular woman--who is of the audience to whom these toys are directed--also questioned the 'goodness' or 'rightness' of these toys. i found this to be positive.
beyond that, i think that the bible--like many texts--houses many interesting lessons. JtB and Jesus, as well as Daniel in the Lion's Den, Noah's arc and many others talk about the cost of sin, the nature of sacrifice, and the power of speaking your truth even to your own death. i think that that's powerful, regardless of the source.
and i think in all of the confusion toward christianity in this culture, those lessons--or the idea tht those lessons exist in the bible--is lost. it's easier to read in the story of the Argonauts or Gilgamesh simply because the cultural baggage isn't there. |
|
| |
|
| zoebird - 2007-08-01 9:54 AM
i'm not arguing the validity of christianity, just acknowledging that this particular woman--who is of the audience to whom these toys are directed--also questioned the 'goodness' or 'rightness' of these toys. i found this to be positive.
Actually she questioned the "goodness" of some of these toys. At least they didn't include any of the old testament prophets. Talk about some guys you REALLY didn't want to cross. IIRC, there was one that had small children torn apart by wild beasts for taunting. I don't know about you, but I've met few children that could avoid making some comments about a guy who's spent years living out in the wild, with hair all over the place, and probably poor hygiene and social skills....
beyond that, i think that the bible--like many texts--houses many interesting lessons.
Yeah, don't get in the way of 13 tribes wandering through the wilderness looking for the promised land.
and i think in all of the confusion toward christianity in this culture, those lessons--or the idea tht those lessons exist in the bible--is lost. it's easier to read in the story of the Argonauts or Gilgamesh simply because the cultural baggage isn't there.
True. People really aren't reacting to the stories, but rather to their cultural overtones. |
|
| |
|
| GreenJello - 2007-08-01 12:59 PM
True. People really aren't reacting to the stories, but rather to their cultural overtones.
I would go so far as to say that most folks just don't read the entire Bible that often.
I've read the whole thing numerous times and came away with different feelings each and every time, but you can do that with any media...... the point is, there are a lot of specifics that get glossed over when folks want to spread the word of salvation and forgiveness. |
|
| |
|
| Do you all remember this open letter to Dr. Laura which was published a while ago when the debate about gays in the Church was raging:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law.
I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other specific Biblical laws and how to follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Lev.15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
|
|
| |
|
| Yes, I think that the whole Christian thing has taken on a life of it's own that almost has nothing to do with the original book. |
|
| |
|
| i'm not quite sure what we're talking about now. . .
but the impression that i had from the woman on TBN is that she was questioning whether or not these toys were better--as in less violent--than commercial toys. she seemed to assert that the only way in which they would be or could be better is that they are story based, and that the stories, in general, have themes about righteousness (from their perspective), whereas one cannot say if spiderman or transformers holds that same message.
for my own part, i think that spiderman and transformers do have positive messages about 'truth and justice,' the sometimes necessity of violence, and the need to defend or stand up for what is right.
i think that this mother's assertion is that she would prefer that her sons focus on the pacifist message of christ and the baptist (one of repentance, etc), rather than on the violent path.
but maybe that's just putting a lot of words into her mouth as to what i was understanding her to say.
----
on the flip side, one of the things that i think about often is how to raise children in general, and boys in particular. it seems to me that the natural inclination--spiritually--of many boys is to be a hero, a protector, and a defender. this is common in the male story, over and over (looking at jungian theory, joseph campbell, etc). women's stories are different, with some similarities, but overall have different attributes. i'm not valuing one over the other, just noticing the difference.
with this, i've thought about training. if we think back about 100 years, we find that boys have certain skills--well, people have skills that many of us no longer have. for example, boys would know how to hunt, trap, and fish--and with that, they'd know the tools of that trade.
we go back a little farther, before the time of real, trained militaries, and we find that people--particularly men--also had martial arts that they were trained in. but funny thing, they werent' trained from age 10 and up--most of them had their first toy sword as a baby (or whatever the weapon would be).
i think that there is a sort of spirit-need to understand violence and it's right applications--and in this, the ability to defend oneself and one's loved ones from danger.
the old school training--from what i can gather--really develops in the growing male child a sense of the intensity of violence, the very real risks of it, such that they don't actually seek it out, but are capable should it find them.
which brings me again to beg the question about male play and violence. is it really a problem?
my issue with kids and toys often has to do with consumerism and materialism. but if we set that aside and talk about the nature of those toys, we might discover something really interesting about different archetypes in child play.
in our society that is very 'anti' violence and yet also very violent, it seems to me that the process of trying to keep such violent toys out of the home actually makes the individual less sensitive to the realities of that violence.
and this isn't to say, btw, that girls shouldn't have these toys, play with them, etc--that's all fine. i'm just speaking in generalities and making loose observations.
and thinking that, perhaps, it would be important to take children hunting to see the realities of the weapons, to teach them the value of those weapons (as tools to gain food, also as one that can defend a household), and give them a healthy respect for learning how and when to use these tools.
my first experience of this sort of intimate violence was around age 3-4, when my mother had told me my grandfather went hunting for birds. i was so excited to see these birds. when he got home, he said i could go see them, having left them in the garage where he was going to clean them. I wandered down there and staretd screaming bloody murder because they were all dead. my grandfather hadn't realized the impact--and i wouldn't eat dinner (which was the birds).
it was later explained to me about the origin of foods and the nature of hunting--and when it was right vs wrong. i still found it terribly violent and was quite afraid of guns, but years later (when i was 7 or so) my grandfather taught me gun safety (before that, it was 'don't touch!'), and before he died, he taught me to target shoot (i was 11 at the time). most hunters take their first trip and get their first kill around age 13, though they're invited to join the hunt around age 11 or so--getting two years of 'training' before they actually have the opportunity to kill anything.
anyway, i was just htinking about this--in toto--regardless of the toys themselves--as to whether or not 'violent play' is valuable, and when and how. |
|
| |
|
| I think it is most appropriate to teach children, young boys especially, how to recognize hypocrisy--whatever the toy that you use to engage in the lesson is not important.
Somewhere they will learn about how Socrates died, and how recognizing hypocrisy ties in with that, and then they will have one of the greatest most useful skills in life.
How to look at the sun and call it the moon, and look at the color black and call it white----these skills are of utmost importance to our survival as a society.
I'm only half, no maybe an eighth, joking.
|
|
| |
|
| i think i'm puzzling the connection between body-experience and spirit-aspect/archetype and connecting these two in the individual human.
we know that yoga brings about an integrated spirit-body experience, and i'm curious if training in martial arts--both formal and informal--provides the same grounding for the male spirit-psyche.
that is, by role playing violence and rough-and-tumble play (informal martial arts training) do boys become grounded and gain insight into the nature of war and violence such that they understand the implications and applications of various activities (ie, throwing rocks at friends can kill them; hey, if someone is attacking me, i can throw a rock at them and kill them--this comes from ryan's own experience growing up, aged 12) and therefore better understand their spirit-archetypal roles are protectors and providers?
if this is coupled with formalized training and explanation (rules and disciplines such as sports, martial arts, or simple parental guidance including morality instruction), do boys gain a better understanding of what it is to be men, such that they can vitally and appropriately fulfill these roles, thus creating an environment in which they have less of a tendency for outright violence, more of a respect for the delicate nature of life and the need to preserve it, and a deep understanding of their physical ability to preserve it when necessary?
and how does play develop the skills necessary to fulfill these roles at the body, mind, and spirit levels?
and how will I, as a potential mother of sons, make certain that my sons do have the opportunities--if they are necessary--to explore formally and informally the nature of violence in order to understand their role in it, when it is applicable and when it isn't?
ah, the big questions. |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Being a mother of a boy is indeed a thought-provoking situation! Having a strong male role model is perhaps the #1 thing that shows a boy how to become a good man. My son also benefited from a couple of stints in marital arts. He spent some time around 6 or 7 in karate and some time in high school in tae kwon do. More great role models there, of course and a few in other aspects of his life - swim coaches, one high school teacher and a few others.
I allowed a certain level of violence in books. movies, video games and even a (thankfully VERY brief) foray into rap "music." But there were always limits - when Pulp Fiction came out he was only 14 and it was not allowed. By the time he was 16 or 17 and it was available for rent (remember when there was a gap between finishing in the theatre and hitting the video store shelves?) I figured he would watch it at a friend's house anyway so it was pretty pointless to try to keep him away from it.
He's a pretty laid back pacifist musician type now  But when I watch him doing his yoga practice or see him really ruling the room when he is playing a gig, I can see that he understands power and how to contain it and use it appropriately. It could have been his upbringing or it could have been Yoda explaining the use of the Force to Luke Skywalker....we can never be too sure about these things  |
|
| |
|
| I have extensive training and experience in the martial art, and competitive freestyle, collegiate, sambo wrestling styles....Sambo is basically submission and arms are regularly broken and some competitors have been barred from competition for too many deaths in the ring....
SO,
Coming to grips with your mortality and having an amplified consciousness of your own body is certainly something that some of us get out of it, but it's like anything else, it takes all kinds. |
|
| |
|
| I have been thinking alot about this recently as well.
I definately don't want my son playing with guns (toy or otherwise) as I think that sends a totally wrong message.
Interestingly, if I remember correctly when movies like 'Top Gun' came out in the States, the US military saw a large rise in it's recruitment. Though when 'Saving Private Ryan' (a very graphic movie which probably shows how war really is) was released there was a drop in recruitment.
I think there is a tendency to glorify and romanticize violence and portray it differently than it actually is. I spent four years in the British infantry, though was never in a war. At the time I was really annoyed that I didn't get to see any action, now I realize how lucky I was.
Like Steve, as a teenager, I also spent many years practising martial arts (Kyokushin Kai Karate and Silat), boxing and submission wrestling and ironically, it was a martial arts injury that brought me to Yoga (my last fight at the Abu Dhabi Combat Club was only two years ago).
I think that there are many valuable lessons to be learnt in knowing how to fight and I will certainly teach Charlie from a young age, though I'll also help him develop his emotional literacy so he understands all the other options available to him other than violence.
He'll spend more time learning Yoga though
Jonathon
|
|
| |
|
| children will play with sticks
they will play with kitchen pots
they will play with anything, these action figures are unnecessary, boys will turn a blade of grass into a play gun, you don't need to buy them a plastic one....
in full disclosure, my wife makes sure that my daughters have plenty of barbies, my son has received his fair share of plastic toy guns and he has a spring powered pellet gun, I have one too.
The Dalai Lama has admitted to enjoying shooting birds with his pellet gun.
I don't shoot anything with my pellet gun anymore.
The groundhogs and bunny rabbits and birds in my back yard are there and they're not leaving and I'm fine with that.
|
|
| |
|
| ryan was and is greatly influenced by star wars. i think that's what drew him, ultimately, into zen buddhism.
ryan, unlike many other boys, was entirely discouraged from physicality, from play fighting, into a more mental role-playing aspect.
to him, this has left him with huge gaps in his physical skills. while he has a great deal of physical awareness and great emotional intellegence, he's not very skilled at, say--putting up a tent, chopping fire wood, or figuring out how to plug in VCRs.
i find that there seems to be the physical-technical thing in males, something about the need for physical experimentation and absolutely physical foolishness that i see among the "goblins" in my neighborhood (and they are very constrained, IMO). btw, "goblins" refers to boys ages 12-15 who do whacky stuff like line the busy road outside of our neighborhood with a row of oranges, then sit behind a wall to watch people run over them--in the dead of night. they're hilarious.
and incredibly foolish, as i saw them role-playing with base ball bats and trash can lids the other day--bashing the heck out of each other.
someone came out and screamed at them about how foolish they were behaving (true!), but i also felt that they were doing something that seemed to be vital to their physical understanding, their emotional understanding, the nature of mastery, and the dynamics of male social politics.
of course, i am wholly an outsider. 
and i'm quite curious about men--what makes them work.
i kinda like them.
|
|
| |
|
| Yeah, I've seen something similar with my cats. They spend a great deal of time stalking each other back and forth, springing upon each other, and trying to kill each other. 'Course it's all in good fun, otherwise I'm sure there would be some blood or something similar.
I think that it's important for everybody to understand violence, it's application, and it's consequences. Ignorance is simply not acceptable, since violence shapes so much of what goes on in the world around us. Anybody who claims that violence never solves anything is clearly living with their head in the sand. Violence can, and does, resolve a number of different issues. Unfortunately, these can often lead to other problems....
So as children, I think that it's important for kids to play violent games. To learn the consequences of their actions on a much less meaningful arena, where the worst that can happen is a broken arm or leg. Far worse to make it to manhood, and be forced to learn all these lessons later on in life, where the consequences are FAR more serious, including jail time, death, or permenant injury.
I also think that violence extends beyond the purely physical, aggressiveness that is often labeled as violence into other more mental realms. This can include things such as verbal attacks, mental manipulation, abuse, and lying.
I known that Ghandi is often held up as a symbol of peaceful dissent, but isn't dissent another form of violence, albeit a form that doesn't directly attack it's opponents? Wasn't he enforcing his will upon other people, via much less aggressive means? |
|
| |
|
| even if he wasn't, he did understand the need to stand up for something, even to his own death--whether through starvation (fasting) or because he would peacefully walk with a group of other people up to people with weapons as a matter of protest.
i don't know if he was 'manipulative' but at the very least, he understood the nature of sacrifice for his beliefs. |
|
| |
Faith Based Toys!!
