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| Discussion 4
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Jim: Hello Neel "What is happening is: You are suggesting is that a person should give up all paths so that he can follow this 'awareness' thing as you call it. What the path of Yoga is telling is: follow certain practices so that preconceived ideas shall be modified and removed so that one shall get used to 'pure awareness'. After the awareness is developed there is no need of practices."
It seems to me that you are saying that if you follow the yogic "Path", using predetermined methods and following the holy texts, you will get to "pure awareness." You still allow that at that point or earlier, your preconcieved ideas must be removed and you must transcend the words and experience that which is beyond words.
What I am saying is that if you remove your personal and cultural conditioning, your beliefs and indentifications, your physical and mental blockages, your seeking and methodologies, and develop your awareness, you will get to "pure awareness." (Since "pure awareness" is there in the first place, all you have to do is remove your obstacles, just like the love and creativity examples.) I also acknowledge that external inputs are not only useful but required as otherwise you can lose your frame of reference. (You have to be careful not to get lost when not using a predetermined path!)
I think that we are kind of saying the same thing from two different angles!
Neel - Dear Jim. No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is: In 99 percent cases, they have to follow various paths, holy texts, prescribed methods, and only then they shall reach the purity of pure awareness. yogaangaanushthaanadashuddhikshaye jnanadiiptiraavivekakhyaateH... Patanjali (by following practices of yoga, the impurity is removed andpurity of pure awarness dawns). Only, in rare cases, where the purity already has reached, a self enquiry can be done. (The method depicted of self enquiry in modern books, especially in the Western circles, appeals to the western mind, but actually does not work as they are not ready for that method.)
Jim: There is one important thing that we have both forgotten to mention. That is balance! As long as you or I cling to one side or the other, we will not have balance. Attachment to the part while ignoring the whole puts us out of balance. Taking sides requires force (which is violence). Seeing both the parts and the whole is peace. Peace is active without force.
Neel - I could not understand stand this statement.
Jim - P.S. You probably noticed that I view things in a non-dualistic way; ie matter and energy are the same, mind and body are the same, all is one and one is all, etc etc. although these are again only words or simple symbols instead of reality.
Neel - Yes, I noticed that in a way. In the non dualistic philosophy, matter and energy are same, and they are only material expression of brahman which is the substratum and which is the one beyond. |
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| kulkarnn - 2007-07-23 9:51 AM
(The method depicted of self enquiry in modern books, especially in the Western circles, appeals to the western mind, but actually does not work as they are not ready for that method.)
Sorry for the interruption. Thank you Neel for pointing that out.
Yes, it's true, many people are attracted to the wisdom part but most are not ready for the method.
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| Kaos - 2007-07-23 10:25 AM
kulkarnn - 2007-07-23 9:51 AM
(The method depicted of self enquiry in modern books, especially in the Western circles, appeals to the western mind, but actually does not work as they are not ready for that method.)
Sorry for the interruption. Thank you Neel for pointing that out.
Yes, it's true, many people are attracted to the wisdom part but most are not ready for the method.
I agree, to an extent, however may find some pointed differences on specific points of possible debate.
From what I see if you go around the world most everyone is not ready, and will probably never be ready at least in this short life.
I don't see that the 'Western' mind is any less ready, however because of the inquisitiveness of a culture founded on Religious Freedoms [in the New World, in the USA] the culture of those who still believe in Religious Freedom makes it possible to freely consider other viewpoints that are culturally different in opposition to those that do not believe in such Freedom.
That being said, it is obvious that Religious Freedom and the concept of such a Freedom is not very well practiced or comprehended by many.
So yes, with the fundamentals of the statement I may agree, however, not with the cultural bias.
It is up to individuals, great and small, to make the journey not entire civilizations or cultures.
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| SCThornley - 2007-07-23 10:40 AM
From what I see if you go around the world most everyone is not ready, and will probably never be ready at least in this short life.
I don't see that the 'Western' mind is any less ready, however because of the inquisitiveness of a culture founded on Religious Freedoms [in the New World, in the USA] the culture of those who still believe in Religious Freedom makes it possible to freely consider other viewpoints that are culturally different in opposition to those that do not believe in such Freedom.
That being said, it is obvious that Religious Freedom and the concept of such a Freedom is not very well practiced or comprehended by many.
So yes, with the fundamentals of the statement I may agree, however, not with the cultural bias.
It is up to individuals, great and small, to make the journey not entire civilizations or cultures.
That is true.
It is karma at work.
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| While many people including non-Westerners are interested in the wisdom part, most are not ready for the method part.
Karma ensures that most people have to spend their lives working or doing other external activities. There's the statement "most people are not ready for the method" part comes in.
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| Dear Brother SCT: Just to clarify: I did not mean that Western mind is less ready for self enquiry, and non Western is more ready for it. What I meant was: method of practices (as against only self enquiry) is more accepted and followed in the non western world. Whereas, in the western world,due to appeal of Self Enquiry and non-association with practiced, Self Enquiry is proclaimed, though they are not ready for it (similary to other 99 percent in the entire world).
SCThornley - 2007-07-23 10:40 AM
Kaos - 2007-07-23 10:25 AM
kulkarnn - 2007-07-23 9:51 AM
(The method depicted of self enquiry in modern books, especially in the Western circles, appeals to the western mind, but actually does not work as they are not ready for that method.)
Sorry for the interruption. Thank you Neel for pointing that out.
Yes, it's true, many people are attracted to the wisdom part but most are not ready for the method.
I agree, to an extent, however may find some pointed differences on specific points of possible debate.
From what I see if you go around the world most everyone is not ready, and will probably never be ready at least in this short life.
I don't see that the 'Western' mind is any less ready, however because of the inquisitiveness of a culture founded on Religious Freedoms [in the New World, in the USA] the culture of those who still believe in Religious Freedom makes it possible to freely consider other viewpoints that are culturally different in opposition to those that do not believe in such Freedom.
That being said, it is obvious that Religious Freedom and the concept of such a Freedom is not very well practiced or comprehended by many.
So yes, with the fundamentals of the statement I may agree, however, not with the cultural bias.
It is up to individuals, great and small, to make the journey not entire civilizations or cultures.
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| kulkarnn - 2007-07-23 11:35 AM
Dear Brother SCT: Just to clarify: I did not mean that Western mind is less ready for self enquiry, and non Western is more ready for it. What I meant was: method of practices (as against only self enquiry) is more accepted and followed in the non western world. Whereas, in the western world,due to appeal of Self Enquiry and non-association with practiced, Self Enquiry is proclaimed, though they are not ready for it (similary to other 99 percent in the entire world).
(The method depicted of self enquiry in modern books, especially in the Western circles, appeals to the western mind, but actually does not work as they are not ready for that method.)
These are very arrogant statements! They are based on prejudices not facts.
Faith and belief are the inability to accept that you don't know. Accepting that you don't know is the first step to any serious inquiry.
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| Darling jimg: I could not understand what is arrogant in these statements. Please explain. As for the facts, I have taught at least 5000 students in the Western world and have associated with more than 10000 Yoga persons (not fluffy, but serious) and what I wrote matches with what I found. Many persons who follow Self Enquiry method have approached me for advice.
Let us revert back to our mangoes (discussion) soon. And, forget our personalities.
Peace
jimg - 2007-07-24 1:22 PM
kulkarnn - 2007-07-23 11:35 AM
Dear Brother SCT: Just to clarify: I did not mean that Western mind is less ready for self enquiry, and non Western is more ready for it. What I meant was: method of practices (as against only self enquiry) is more accepted and followed in the non western world. Whereas, in the western world,due to appeal of Self Enquiry and non-association with practiced, Self Enquiry is proclaimed, though they are not ready for it (similary to other 99 percent in the entire world).
(The method depicted of self enquiry in modern books, especially in the Western circles, appeals to the western mind, but actually does not work as they are not ready for that method.)
These are very arrogant statements! They are based on prejudices not facts.
Faith and belief are the inability to accept that you don't know. Accepting that you don't know is the first step to any serious inquiry.
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| Dear Neel,
Please understand that I am saying that the statements are arrogant, not that you as a person are arrogant (although I'm sure that you have your moments, as do I and everyone else). I'm sure that you are a wonderful fellow and I meant no disrespect! What is arrogant is the assumption that you (or anyone else) know who is ready for Self Enquiry (or anything else) and who is not without knowing these people and that 99% are ready and 1% are not. (Even if you know someone, judging them is arrogant.) Prejudice is assuming that all (or most) people that belong to a certain group conform to the characteristics of those (from that group) that you have known, heard about or imagined. Whether you have known 1 or 10,000 individuals, projecting their characteristics on others is still prejudice as the difference between individuals in any group is greater than the difference between groups as a whole. (I'm sure that you have experienced prejudice against yourself by American people who stereotype Indians. I have also lived and worked in foriegn countries and experienced this. Prejudice is the result of group or cultural identifications and projecting the known (those that I have known) on the unknown (those that I don't know)). I hope that I'm not boring you, but I keep coming back to the idea that we need to let go of the known to experience the unknown. This philosophy has echoed around the world independently in every time and in almost every culture. Does that make it true? No. Does that increase the likelihood of its truth? Yes.
Namaste,
Jim |
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| jimg - 2007-07-24 1:22 PM
These are very arrogant statements! They are based on prejudices not facts.
I wonder where the arrogance and prejudice is coming from?
:roll:
jimg
Faith and belief are the inability to accept that you don't know. Accepting that you don't know is the first step to any serious inquiry.
It's the other way around.
What you know are the first steps.
Then one progressively unlearns what one "knew".
Since man's intellectual capacity is limited. The Unlimited cannot be grasped by the intellect and concepts alone.
As one evolves, one realizes that "one doesn't know".
Edited by Kaos 2007-07-24 4:52 PM
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| >Please explain. As for the facts, I have taught at least 5000 students in the Western world and have associated with more than 10000 Yoga persons (not fluffy, but serious) and what I wrote matches with what I found. Many persons who follow Self Enquiry method have approached me for advice.
Question: And these statements NOT make you arrogant how??? |
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| Jambo - 2007-07-24 6:24 PM
>Please explain. As for the facts, I have taught at least 5000 students in the Western world and have associated with more than 10000 Yoga persons (not fluffy, but serious) and what I wrote matches with what I found. Many persons who follow Self Enquiry method have approached me for advice.
Question: And these statements NOT make you arrogant how???
experienced, yes
knowledgeable, yes
arrogant, no
Neel is a humble, giving soul and provides his light on this forum free of charge,
I pray that we all can know the difference between free knowledge flowing like a spring and the brackish tide waters of arrogance |
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| >experienced, yes
knowledgeable, yes
arrogant, no
Neel is a humble, giving soul and provides his light on this forum free of charge,
I pray that we all can know the difference between free knowledge flowing like a spring and the brackish tide waters of arrogance<
How so? |
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| just pay attention
and
have enough patience to change your point of view |
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| Darling jimg: Let us first continue our original discussion which we were enjoying. You said that my statements were not facts, but prejudices for Western public or such. My wife is a white american and 95 percent of my students are also non Indian at this time. So, there is no prejudice. We love each other. But, since you said 'no facts', I told you what the fact is and where I arrived at the conclusion. Now, you call my fact also arrogance. So, let us accept that I am arrogant, and focus on what I am saying and not my arrogance. Let us continue our discussion. |
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| Neel,
Your last post really embodies Yoga in both theory and practise.
Jonathon
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| You didn't understand what I said about prejudice. I wasn't talking about racial or national prejudice. I was talking about the prejudice of projecting what you know about some people on other people that you don't know. That is what you are doing when you make generalizations about other people. If I may quote Friedrich Nietzsche - "There are no facts, only interpretations." I would also like to quote Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - "A person hears only what they understand."
I think that we may be talking apples and oranges. I think that you are talking religion and I am talking philosophy. (Yes you are talking philosophy, but within the context of your religion.)
Regards,
Jim
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| Dear jimg: With all respects to the two persons you quoted, and with your previous logic: All your statements need not be heard as they shall be changing as per your changing experience and with change in our hearing and with the change in yoga.com board, and with change in language and change in Change.
But, there is only one way that logic is going to work: That is, if one keeps complete Silence.
As for this thread, I shall either wait on your going back to our Discussion, or I shall wait on or at least keep my own Silence.
Peace (Hope that does not change) and Love (Shall stay love with change as Love can be expressed in many ways!!!) |
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| jimg - 2007-07-25 12:28 PM
You didn't understand what I said about prejudice. I wasn't talking about racial or national prejudice. I was talking about the prejudice of projecting what you know about some people on other people that you don't know. That is what you are doing when you make generalizations about other people. If I may quote Friedrich Nietzsche - "There are no facts, only interpretations." I would also like to quote Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - "A person hears only what they understand."
I think that we may be talking apples and oranges. I think that you are talking religion and I am talking philosophy. (Yes you are talking philosophy, but within the context of your religion.)
Regards,
Jim
Namaste jim,
Perhaps, you may want to stand back and reflect where all this perception of "arrogance", and "prejudice" that you introduced, is coming from, in your discussion with Neel.
Truth, cannot be arrogant, nor prejudiced.
Therefore, where is "arrogance" and "prejudice" originating from with you and Neel? It can only arise from the ego-personality. Who introduced the perception of "arrogance" and "prejudice"?
I think, you should apologize to Neel and to this board.
Edited by Kaos 2007-07-25 2:51 PM
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| No, no. Jimb, you do not have to apologize. Just forget this part and let us go to discussion or some other topic. My suggestion would be to focus on discussion, because this is a discussion board. I am not verifying whether one is doing what I suggested. But, let me add one more thing, eventhough I stated that I shall be silent.
What you are saying about judging others is to some extent true. That one should not judge others. But, just imagine that I have been Yoga Instructor for long. Now, if someone comes to me and asks me how to become flexible, I have to judge their currnet body condition and then suggest. I can not say: Everything is fine and everything is changing with time, so do not worry.
My statement about Westerners more interested in Self Enquiry has resulted from the above situation. But, I am also saying that non Westerners are also not ready for Self Enquiry. But, Westerners think they should take up that path, and non Westerners are able to follow the prescribed methods. Even watching the events as they come and accepting them is a presribed method of some sort. |
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| kulkarnn - 2007-07-25 5:13 PM
Neel-What you are saying about judging others is to some extent true. That one should not judge others. But, just imagine that I have been Yoga Instructor for long. Now, if someone comes to me and asks me how to become flexible, I have to judge their currnet body condition and then suggest. I can not say: Everything is fine and everything is changing with time, so do not worry.
Jim-When someone is asking for technical advice (ie how do I become more flexible or whatever) of course you must assess their current flexibility and look for what is blocking their natural flexibility potential before you can suggest a course of action. That is not judging that person but rather responding to their request with an educated answer. Everything is still changing with time. but your response to that individual is how (in your opinion, whether experienced or not) to facilitate a change in direction, in the continuum of change that is already taking place. I am hoping that neither your suggestions nor that person's body will be static.
Neel-My statement about Westerners more interested in Self Enquiry has resulted from the above situation. But, I am also saying that non Westerners are also not ready for Self Enquiry. But, Westerners think they should take up that path, and non Westerners are able to follow the prescribed methods. Even watching the events as they come and accepting them is a presribed method of some sort.
Jim-The above situation is probably not a representative sample of Westerners, although I agree that many "modern" people worldwide seem to have trouble with learning and perfecting a prescribed method. You are right that I am actually advancing an alternative "prescribed method" rather than eliminating "prescribed mothods" altogether. Please define "Self Enquiry."
Thanks,
Jim
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| Kaos - 2007-07-25 2:49 PM
Truth, cannot be arrogant, nor prejudiced.
Namaste Kaos,
I agree that truth cannot be arrogant or prejudiced, but words on paper or in people's heads often are.
Regards,
Jim |
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| jimg - 2007-07-25 12:28 PM
I think that you are talking religion and I am talking philosophy. (Yes you are talking philosophy, but within the context of your religion.)
Jim, you are doing exactly the same thing as what you accuse Neel of.
You accuse Neel of talking philosophy within the context of religion.
Yet, you yourself is talking philosophy within a yoga forum.
Yoga, by the way, is the union of body, mind and spirit.
In other words, I hope you proof-read your posts before you hit the send button.
Kaos
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| jimg - 2007-07-25 7:40 PM
I agree that truth cannot be arrogant or prejudiced, but words on paper or in people's heads often are.
Jim
How do you know???
To use your very own words, -- "Accepting that you don't know is the first step to any serious inquiry."
Like I said, please re-read your posts, before hitting the send button.
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| Discussion 5
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Jim-When someone is asking for technical advice (ie how do I become more flexible or whatever) of course you must assess their current flexibility and look for what is blocking their natural flexibility potential before you can suggest a course of action. That is not judging that person but rather responding to their request with an educated answer. Everything is still changing with time. but your response to that individual is how (in your opinion, whether experienced or not) to facilitate a change in direction, in the continuum of change that is already taking place. I am hoping that neither your suggestions nor that person's body will be static.
Neel - Question1 for Jim: Dear Jim: When such a person comes to you for flexibility advice, assuming this situation existed, will you tell that person that I am giving you certain advice in the sense of checking what is blocking your flexibility, etc. and giving you advice to change in the direction of already changing universe? Will you also tell him that your advice itself is also undergoing such a change and if he/she comes to you again, you shall be giving him PROBABLY a changed advice?
Question 2 for Jim - Your method of checking what is blocking the flexibility. Will that be based on your or someone else's past experiences or only current awareness?
Jim-The above situation is probably not a representative sample of Westerners, although I agree that many "modern" people worldwide seem to have trouble with learning and perfecting a prescribed method. You are right that I am actually advancing an alternative "prescribed method" rather than eliminating "prescribed mothods" altogether. Please define "Self Enquiry."
Neel - Q1: How do you know 'modern people' have this trouble?
Q2: Is your statement using word 'modern people' in pllace of my word 'western people' a judgement similar to mine or it is a benign statement?
Q3 o you beleve in Statistics? If yes, do you think that if I had 4000 western students and more than half of them are having a particular situation, I should make that statement? And, if I find that much less than 5 percent non Westerners only are having that situation, I can compare western verses non western or not?
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any atheists here?
