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 any atheists here?Moderators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 2 3 4 5 Now viewing page 3 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Yoga -> Philosophy and Religion | Message format |
souljourney108 |
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| I Am... beyond labels. Hari Om, Soul | |||
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| Whobert1 |
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Do ex-atheists count ?  Atheism is as an honest approach towards the concept of God, as any other. I specially like the militant ones, and feel compasion towards those who are atheists without knowing it. | |||
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| bstqltmkr |
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SCThornley - 2007-06-12 8:09 AM tweeva - 2007-06-11 5:31 PM Fine by me, Steve, you can be evil for the next yuga or so (give and take a few years).  evil and good incorporating everything in proper measure except, I've eliminated intoxicants and meat I used to be such a party animal, now I just have my beans and rice or a salad and answer my e-mail, read stories to my kids.............. MAN I need to go to a big ROCK and ROLL concert or something and groove............ eh sometimes I feel too old for that now. reminding myself that I'm good and evil is a comfort when I feel like I'm pure evil. I remind myself that I'm only human, so I'm a mix of good and evil. What a weight off my shoulders. My last concert was the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Amazing how good it was to hoot and holler until my throat was sore and I sounded like I was drinking whiskey all night. Nope, totally sober, and it was way better that way.   I like to take sole responsibility for that last encore. | |||
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| An atheist is a disallusioned believer. An agnostic is someone who believes that they don't know. If you think you know, you don't; just like if you think that you are humble, you aren't. If the goal of Yoga is "self-realization", you cannot have a preconcieved idea of the self. Otherwise you are only projecting your own memory (the known) and then "finding" it. (Memory is the past; it is dead.) Only a mind free from preconcieved ideas of the self can find the self or the unknown. You cannot find the unknown with the known. (The unknown is in the present; it is alive.) You can remove the obstacles but you cannot make things like love, creativity or the unknown happen. You can only open yourself so that when they do happen, you can recieve them. If the goal of Yoga is "union with the divine" and you have a preconcieved idea of the divine you can only experience your own projections again. If you have NOT experienced “the divine,” this is just words. If you HAVE experienced “the divine,” this is just words. | |||
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| Kaos |
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jimg - 2007-07-18 4:07 PM If the goal of Yoga is "union with the divine" and you have a preconcieved idea of the divine you can only experience your own projections again. If you have NOT experienced “the divine,” this is just words. If you HAVE experienced “the divine,” this is just words. Good points, jimg. Thank you for the post. | |||
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| kulkarnn |
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| Dear Jiimg: Thanks for an interesting comment. With very good logic in it, the statement is actually wrong. See below. Suppose you had one pen which you liked. Now, that pen is lost and you are not happy about this. So, the pen is only in your memory. So, you start searching for the pen which you already knew and is now in your memory. When you find the pen after search, you become happy in the context of finding the pen. Suppose you never drank orange juice and then met a person from Florida who told you that the organge juice tastes fantastic. But, you have to come to Florida if he has to offer the juice to you. Now, you have not tasted the juice before, but you have a preconceived idea of the juice which you think is real, as you believe in the friend. So, you try your best to get to Florida. Ultimately, if and when you get to Florida, you taste the orange juice and really become happy. In the Yoga, the former is called "Pratyaksha" pramaana. The later is called "aagama". Also, I can give you one more example, for the third possibility called "anumaana" which is deduction. This will apply to a person whom you always see happy, but you are only deducing how he reached there. Now, you can apply the above to "Self-Realization". jimg - 2007-07-18 4:07 PM An atheist is a disallusioned believer. An agnostic is someone who believes that they don't know. If you think you know, you don't; just like if you think that you are humble, you aren't. If the goal of Yoga is "self-realization", you cannot have a preconcieved idea of the self. Otherwise you are only projecting your own memory (the known) and then "finding" it. (Memory is the past; it is dead.) Only a mind free from preconcieved ideas of the self can find the self or the unknown. You cannot find the unknown with the known. (The unknown is in the present; it is alive.) You can remove the obstacles but you cannot make things like love, creativity or the unknown happen. You can only open yourself so that when they do happen, you can recieve them. If the goal of Yoga is "union with the divine" and you have a preconcieved idea of the divine you can only experience your own projections again. If you have NOT experienced “the divine,” this is just words. If you HAVE experienced “the divine,” this is just words. | |||
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| In your example #1, you are looking for a physical object that you have already actually experienced. The actual pen has an existance besides your memory. It is a fixed object in a fixed place. You are finding a known object (the pen) with the known (your memory). In example #2, it is your imagination that is making the orange juice until you actually experience it. You can go to Florida (a fixed place), find orange juice, and find that it tastes awful or find grapefruit juice and think that it is orange juice. Your preconcieved idea about orange juice has nothing to do with actual orange juice. You are looking for an unknown (orange juice) with the known (your memory or imagination). Since you know where to look (Florida, a known) you can maybe find orange juice, but may not recognize it because it does not fit your preconcieved idea. Even though a friend explained to you what orange juice looks and tastes like, you are interpreting words and cannot "realize" orange juice until you experience it. You may continue to search and never find it because your imagined orange juice never existed except in your imagination. Just like the words on a menu are not the meal, your friend's words are not the orange juice. In example #3, deduction can be correct or incorrect. Just because something makes sense doesn't mean that it is true. We need to know all the facts before making a truly valid deduction and we never know all of the facts because they are always changing; they are not static and neither are we. | |||
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| kulkarnn |
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| Wonderful Jimmg. Now, let us go further. Please see ===> below. jimg - 2007-07-19 3:47 PM In your example #1, you are looking for a physical object that you have already actually experienced. The actual pen has an existance besides your memory. It is a fixed object in a fixed place. You are finding a known object (the pen) with the known (your memory). ===> Yes. Now, let us take another example. You are looking for a wonderful wife. Wife is no doubt an object as you have seen others having a wife. But, let us say you have no wife uptil now. A possibility. So, you have not experienced a wife (unknown). And, it is not a fixed object in a fixed place. When you find your own wife, you shall become happy. Yes/No? In example #2, it is your imagination that is making the orange juice until you actually experience it. You can go to Florida (a fixed place), find orange juice, and find that it tastes awful or find grapefruit juice and think that it is orange juice. Your preconcieved idea about orange juice has nothing to do with actual orange juice. You are looking for an unknown (orange juice) with the known (your memory or imagination). Since you know where to look (Florida, a known) you can maybe find orange juice, but may not recognize it because it does not fit your preconcieved idea. Even though a friend explained to you what orange juice looks and tastes like, you are interpreting words and cannot "realize" orange juice until you experience it. You may continue to search and never find it because your imagined orange juice never existed except in your imagination. Just like the words on a menu are not the meal, your friend's words are not the orange juice. ===> Not exactly. In the case of particularly Orange Juice, we are all sure that we shall certainly find it in Florida. (What are you talking abou?) Yes, until you experience the Orange Juice, it is in your imagination. Imagination is not Known, it is actually Unknown. That is why it is imagination. And, that is why it is not a memory. Memory is that of an experineced object (anubhuutavshayaasmpramoshassmrutiH... Patanjali). (You can say it is a memory of imagination. I do not wish to go to that point. ) Now, when you heard of Orange Juice from the friend in Florida, you will go to search it in Florida or experience it in Florida? Not search, but experience. But, anyway. You shall go only if you trust in your friend to be a good source. This good source of Self Realization is called 'aagama' in Sanskrit language. (pratyakshaanugaamaH pramaanani... Patanjali). In example #3, deduction can be correct or incorrect. Just because something makes sense doesn't mean that it is true. We need to know all the facts before making a truly valid deduction and we never know all of the facts because they are always changing; they are not static and neither are we. ===> Yes, I agree that deduction may be correct or incorrect and you should have all the facts. But, it is a fact that you have seen a person, in my example, to be always happy. That is a fact. And, then you are going to observe that person. That is a fact, and then are going to deduce from his factual behavior the cause of his happiness. Thus, you have sufficient factual evidence. Then, you are going to try to observe those facts in your life and are going to go the happiness yourself. yad yad aacharati shreshthah tat tat itare janaaH... Shreemad Bhagavadgita. ===> Now, let us go into the context of Yoga, Union, Self Realization, and Ultimate Happiness or Moksha, or Nirvana. With no exception, each person is trying to obtain complete and permanent happiness. Sometimes, they run after a small or big or a temporary one. But, they actually want a permanent one. Then they try to obtain it. On the way, they correct mistakes, etc. And, ultimately find it. Then they are know to others as Saints, and then others follow them. How does one know that a Union or Perfect happiness exists. Because, their very nature is happiness (chidaananda ruupo shivoham shivoham.. Nirvanashtakam.) and they have a memory of it in a way. However, they have ignorance that they are body/mind instead of Self. Therefore, they do not experience full happiness. After practice, watching Saints, etc. they understand that they were Self, and not body/mind, which is the Union in Yoga. | |||
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kulkarnn - 2007-07-19 5:44 PM Wonderful Jimmg. Now, let us go further. Please see ===> below. jimg - 2007-07-19 3:47 PM "In your example #1, you are looking for a physical object that you have already actually experienced. The actual pen has an existance besides your memory. It is a fixed object in a fixed place. You are finding a known object (the pen) with the known (your memory). ===> Yes. Now, let us take another example. You are looking for a wonderful wife. Wife is no doubt an object as you have seen others having a wife. But, let us say you have no wife uptil now. A possibility. So, you have not experienced a wife (unknown). And, it is not a fixed object in a fixed place. When you find your own wife, you shall become happy. Yes/No?" Wives are NOT objects. You don't experience a woman (wife), you experience a relationship. Since this example does not make any sense to me, please find a better example. You said in your first example that it was your pen that you lost and now you are going after a wife because you saw someone enjoying one. At least half of the people who find wives are unhappy, hence the high divorce rate. Happiness doesn't come from another, it comes from yourself. "In example #2, it is your imagination that is making the orange juice until you actually experience it. You can go to Florida (a fixed place), find orange juice, and find that it tastes awful or find grapefruit juice and think that it is orange juice. Your preconcieved idea about orange juice has nothing to do with actual orange juice. You are looking for an unknown (orange juice) with the known (your memory or imagination). Since you know where to look (Florida, a known) you can maybe find orange juice, but may not recognize it because it does not fit your preconcieved idea. Even though a friend explained to you what orange juice looks and tastes like, you are interpreting words and cannot "realize" orange juice until you experience it. You may continue to search and never find it because your imagined orange juice never existed except in your imagination. Just like the words on a menu are not the meal, your friend's words are not the orange juice. ===> Not exactly. In the case of particularly Orange Juice, we are all sure that we shall certainly find it in Florida." We are not sure, we are only relying on hearsay and belief, and if we don't know what orange juice is, we cannot be sure to recognize it when we find it. "(What are you talking abou?) Yes, until you experience the Orange Juice, it is in your imagination. Imagination is not Known, it is actually Unknown." Imagination is the known projected into the future. "That is why it is imagination. And, that is why it is not a memory. Memory is that of an experineced object (anubhuutavshayaasmpramoshassmrutiH... Patanjali). (You can say it is a memory of imagination. I do not wish to go to that point. ) Now, when you heard of Orange Juice from the friend in Florida, you will go to search it in Florida or experience it in Florida? Not search, but experience." You will only experience it if you find it and you will not know whether you found it or not because you don't really know what it is, other than what someone else said. That person may be mistaken or communicated it poorly or you may have misunderstood as you have no real frame of reference. "In example #3, deduction can be correct or incorrect. Just because something makes sense doesn't mean that it is true. We need to know all the facts before making a truly valid deduction and we never know all of the facts because they are always changing; they are not static and neither are we. ===> Yes, I agree that deduction may be correct or incorrect and you should have all the facts. But, it is a fact that you have seen a person, in my example, to be always happy." Happy is a totally relative personal and cultural value judgement. People who are stoned on pot appear "happy". "That is a fact." Another person's happiness is not a fact, it is an interpretation. "And, then you are going to observe that person. That is a fact, and then are going to deduce from his factual behavior the cause of his happiness. Thus, you have sufficient factual evidence. Then, you are going to try to observe those facts in your life and are going to go the happiness yourself. yad yad aacharati shreshthah tat tat itare janaaH... Shreemad Bhagavadgita." Truth repeated is no longer truth. Truth is new from moment to moment. "Now, let us go into the context of Yoga, Union, Self Realization, and Ultimate Happiness or Moksha, or Nirvana. With no exception, each person is trying to obtain complete and permanent happiness. Sometimes, they run after a small or big or a temporary one. But, they actually want a permanent one. Then they try to obtain it. On the way, they correct mistakes, etc. And, ultimately find it." Although I also think that this may be true based on the facts that I know and intuition, neither you nor I know this to be true. I consider this idea a working hyphothesis, but it is still either a deduction based on incomplete facts or simply repeating what someone else said. Happiness is not permanent. It is relative and as such cannot be a static state. Happiness only exists is relation to suffering. "Then they are know to others as Saints, and then others follow them. How does one know that a Union or Perfect happiness exists. Because, their very nature is happiness (chidaananda ruupo shivoham shivoham.. Nirvanashtakam.) and they have a memory of it in a way. However, they have ignorance that they are body/mind instead of Self. Therefore, they do not experience full happiness. After practice, watching Saints, etc. they understand that they were Self, and not body/mind, which is the Union in Yoga. I think the Union you are talking about is awareness and not happiness. (Again, happiness is a relative emotion caused by the release of endorphins in the brain.) A lot of people have been known as saints throughout history. Many of them have were much less than what their followers expected. Once you follow someone you relinquish critical judgement and become unable to differenciate between a saint and simply an egotistical madman. If you do not have perfect awareness (or happiness as you say) you don't know whether another has it or not. If you are ignorant, you will choose an ignorant saint or guru. If you are perfectly aware, you don't need one. Since there is no path to the truth, you cannot get it from another, you have to find it yourself. The is no path to truth because there can only be a path between two fixed places and you are not a fixed place and truth is also new each moment. I am not saying that there are not excellent resources out there (including writings and even this forum), but rather that things like love, creativity and the divine (Union) cannot be found by seeking, cannot be bargined for or earned; they are only available to those who have removed the obstacles and been open to them when they come. Edited by jimg 2007-07-19 7:02 PM | |||
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| kulkarnn |
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| Wonderful. Now, let us go further. jimg - 2007-07-19 6:55 PM kulkarnn - 2007-07-19 5:44 PM Wonderful Jimmg. Now, let us go further. Please see ===> below. jimg - 2007-07-19 3:47 PM "In your example #1, you are looking for a physical object that you have already actually experienced. The actual pen has an existance besides your memory. It is a fixed object in a fixed place. You are finding a known object (the pen) with the known (your memory). ===> Yes. Now, let us take another example. You are looking for a wonderful wife. Wife is no doubt an object as you have seen others having a wife. But, let us say you have no wife uptil now. A possibility. So, you have not experienced a wife (unknown). And, it is not a fixed object in a fixed place. When you find your own wife, you shall become happy. Yes/No?" Wives are NOT objects. You don't experience a woman (wife), you experience a relationship. Since this example does not make any sense to me, please find a better example. You said in your first example that it was your pen that you lost and now you are going after a wife because you saw someone enjoying one. At least half of the people who find wives are unhappy, hence the high divorce rate. Happiness doesn't come from another, it comes from yourself. ===> When I say wife is an object, I do not mean an object in derogatory way. What I am saying is that you have definitely seen a physical thing called 'wife - a lady related to a man' in someone's case. So, it is not an imagination. I am not going after wife. Everyone is going after her because they feel they shall be happy. I agree with you that happiness does not come from another one. It comes from yourself. And, that yourself is the one to be realized in Yoga, which is the union. Good. "In example #2, it is your imagination that is making the orange juice until you actually experience it. You can go to Florida (a fixed place), find orange juice, and find that it tastes awful or find grapefruit juice and think that it is orange juice. Your preconcieved idea about orange juice has nothing to do with actual orange juice. You are looking for an unknown (orange juice) with the known (your memory or imagination). Since you know where to look (Florida, a known) you can maybe find orange juice, but may not recognize it because it does not fit your preconcieved idea. Even though a friend explained to you what orange juice looks and tastes like, you are interpreting words and cannot "realize" orange juice until you experience it. You may continue to search and never find it because your imagined orange juice never existed except in your imagination. Just like the words on a menu are not the meal, your friend's words are not the orange juice. ===> Not exactly. In the case of particularly Orange Juice, we are all sure that we shall certainly find it in Florida." We are not sure, we are only relying on hearsay and belief, and if we don't know what orange juice is, we cannot be sure to recognize it when we find it. "(What are you talking abou?) Yes, until you experience the Orange Juice, it is in your imagination. Imagination is not Known, it is actually Unknown." Imagination is the known projected into the future. ===> With this kind of logic, please let me know whether Future is Imagination or a Known. "That is why it is imagination. And, that is why it is not a memory. Memory is that of an experineced object (anubhuutavshayaasmpramoshassmrutiH... Patanjali). (You can say it is a memory of imagination. I do not wish to go to that point. ) Now, when you heard of Orange Juice from the friend in Florida, you will go to search it in Florida or experience it in Florida? Not search, but experience." You will only experience it if you find it and you will not know whether you found it or not because you don't really know what it is, other than what someone else said. That person may be mistaken or communicated it poorly or you may have misunderstood as you have no real frame of reference. ===> But, let us say you (meaning an average human being) finds the orange juice as described by their friend. And, they are still not sure whether it is orange juice or not. But, they drink it. Do you think an average human being will feel fantastic with Orange Juice or not? "In example #3, deduction can be correct or incorrect. Just because something makes sense doesn't mean that it is true. We need to know all the facts before making a truly valid deduction and we never know all of the facts because they are always changing; they are not static and neither are we. ===> Yes, I agree that deduction may be correct or incorrect and you should have all the facts. But, it is a fact that you have seen a person, in my example, to be always happy." Happy is a totally relative personal and cultural value judgement. People who are stoned on pot appear "happy". "That is a fact." Another person's happiness is not a fact, it is an interpretation. ===> With this logic, anything from another person will be an interpretation, including reading your post and logic behind it. So, your logic will be illogical in that sense. "And, then you are going to observe that person. That is a fact, and then are going to deduce from his factual behavior the cause of his happiness. Thus, you have sufficient factual evidence. Then, you are going to try to observe those facts in your life and are going to go the happiness yourself. yad yad aacharati shreshthah tat tat itare janaaH... Shreemad Bhagavadgita." Truth repeated is no longer truth. Truth is new from moment to moment. ===> That is an interpretation! "Now, let us go into the context of Yoga, Union, Self Realization, and Ultimate Happiness or Moksha, or Nirvana. With no exception, each person is trying to obtain complete and permanent happiness. Sometimes, they run after a small or big or a temporary one. But, they actually want a permanent one. Then they try to obtain it. On the way, they correct mistakes, etc. And, ultimately find it." Although I also think that this may be true based on the facts that I know and intuition, neither you nor I know this to be true. I consider this idea a working hyphothesis, but it is still either a deduction based on incomplete facts or simply repeating what someone else said. Happiness is not permanent. It is relative and as such cannot be a static state. Happiness only exists is relation to suffering. ===> I would conclude this to be interpretation full logic. ===> At this point, we shall need to choose a third party as a wintess to this debate. Because, with the logic based on basic difference we shall never conclude. Whom do you choose? "Then they are know to others as Saints, and then others follow them. How does one know that a Union or Perfect happiness exists. Because, their very nature is happiness (chidaananda ruupo shivoham shivoham.. Nirvanashtakam.) and they have a memory of it in a way. However, they have ignorance that they are body/mind instead of Self. Therefore, they do not experience full happiness. After practice, watching Saints, etc. they understand that they were Self, and not body/mind, which is the Union in Yoga. I think the Union you are talking about is awareness and not happiness. ===> That is a matter of terminolgoy. (Again, happiness is a relative emotion caused by the release of endorphins in the brain.) A lot of people have been known as saints throughout history. Many of them have were much less than what their followers expected. Once you follow someone you relinquish critical judgement and become unable to differenciate between a saint and simply an egotistical madman. ===> That is not a universal truth. If you do not have perfect awareness (or happiness as you say) you don't know whether another has it or not. ===> Because you do not have a perfect awareness, you are interested in having it. And, you are bothered about whether there exists another one who may have it. If you already have it, you may not be interested in another person. If you already have job, you shall not be looking for jobs, or to know how others find their jobs,e tc. I mean in general. If you are ignorant, you will choose an ignorant saint or guru. ===> That is an assumption or interpretation. If you are perfectly aware, you don't need one. ===> Yes, and if you are not perfectly aware, you shall, in general have interest. For example, if one already knows all Yoga, then they shall not be asking questions on yoga.com, in general. If they do not know all Yoga, they may choose to use yoga.com. Since there is no path to the truth, you cannot get it from another, you have to find it yourself. ===> Finding yourself is also a path. The is no path to truth because there can only be a path between two fixed places and you are not a fixed place and truth is also new each moment. ===> Truth is new each moment is an assumption. And, if it were a new each moment, there is nothing to find, as what you found is going to be renewed and no more truth. And, whether this is true or not will be an assumption. With assumption, a truth can not be found, as you indicated earlier. I am not saying that there are not excellent resources out there (including writings and even this forum), but rather that things like love, creativity and the divine (Union) cannot be found by seeking, cannot be bargined for or earned; they are only available to those who have removed the obstacles and been open to them when they come. ===> How did you get this logic? From another one or from within? | |||
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| Neel, ===> I am not trying to win a debate. I am simply sharing my insights (however imperfectly presented) in the hopes that they will stimulate others to find their own insights. jimg-The is no path to truth because there can only be a path between two fixed places and you are not a fixed place and truth is also new each moment. kulkarnn-Truth is new each moment is an assumption. And, if it were a new each moment, there is nothing to find, as what you found is going to be renewed and no more truth. ===>exactly! That is why we need to develop awareness. Truth is just like love and creativity. It flows through you when you are open and as soon as you try to hold on to it (to own it, to keep it), it dissappears. jimg-I am not saying that there are not excellent resources out there (including writings and even this forum), but rather that things like love, creativity and the divine (Union) cannot be found by seeking, cannot be bargined for or earned; they are only available to those who have removed the obstacles and been open to them when they come. kulkarnn-How did you get this logic? From another one or from within? ===>This is my own experience. ===>If you can let go of seeking, being a Brahmin, the beliefs, the identifications, the saints, the gurus, the sutras, and the ideas of Samadhi or Nirvana, you can be free and open to love, creativity and the divine. As long as you hold on to them, you can only see through that filter and cannot see the whole or experience the unknown. Try it; you'll see! Or if you prefer, ignore all of this because these ideas don't fit you where you are right now. | |||
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| Kaos |
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| jimg-The is no path to truth because there can only be a path between two fixed places and you are not a fixed place and truth is also new each moment. I disagree with the above statement. Truth is One, there are many paths. The Unlimited is not only reached by one path, otherwise, it is like putting a limit to the Unlimited. Truth is Eternal. Truth cannot be changing. Truth cannot be false one moment and back to truth again the next moment. Edited by Kaos 2007-07-20 1:12 PM | |||
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| I agree, Truth as an abstract doesn't change. But, our perception is what is changing and therefore our view of the truth. The only thing that we know or can know is what we percieve and therefore our relationship with truth is constantly changing. It is either growing or regressing. Like the blind men and the elephant, we touch different parts and make different assumptions (many of them false) until we start to get a true picture of the entire elephant. You can call that process "many paths" but it is a process of elimination (of our false assumptions) more than a path. My definition of a path is a fixed way such as if you take I5 from Vancouver BC south you will end up in San Diego or if you combine certain ingredients you will get a cake. These are things that you can learn from another and repeat with the same results. Although you can learn helpful techniques from others to help your process of seeing or realizing the elephant, you still have to find the elephant yourself. If you have a preconcieved idea of what the elephant looks like, you are only hampering your discovery. It is the same in science. When you already think that you know the answer, you are not open to the real answer, you will not find something new, you are not inquiring, only trying to prove that you are right. It is also the same in creative areas such as music. If your mind is trying to make the music, if you are trying to force a particular preconcieved result, you end up just making notes (no matter how technically brilliant) not making music. To make music you need technique, but the difference is that your mind is silent and you are totally open so that the music flows through you. You don't own it; you are only the instrument. | |||
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| Darling Jimg: I liked your first post and gathered that you were interested in a healthy debate. There is something called healthy debate which is not arguement for quarrel. That is what I am doing. And, everyone on the board are sharing their insights, knowledge or questions. I am not judging your presentation. I am focussed on the points you are making. And, regardless of what happens I love you, which is one of the elements in your plan. Now, let me go ahead. jimg - 2007-07-20 12:29 PM Neel, ===> I am not trying to win a debate. I am simply sharing my insights (however imperfectly presented) in the hopes that they will stimulate others to find their own insights. jimg-The is no path to truth because there can only be a path between two fixed places and you are not a fixed place and truth is also new each moment. kulkarnn-Truth is new each moment is an assumption. And, if it were a new each moment, there is nothing to find, as what you found is going to be renewed and no more truth. ===>exactly! That is why we need to develop awareness. Truth is just like love and creativity. It flows through you when you are open and as soon as you try to hold on to it (to own it, to keep it), it dissappears. ===> OK. This is what I gather from this. First, we have to assume or accept that Truth is like love and creativity and renews each moment. And, due to this assumption, the path is 'NOT to hold on to anything', but just be aware of happening and let them come and embrace them with love. No problem, but actually to follow this path, you are still holding on to one thing, 'that is the orginal assumption'. ===> This method shall work fine. But, actually, in Yoga Philosophy (which is definitely a product of realization and experience of Yogis, and not an assumption or imagination.), the statement you made already exists. However, that statement applies to nature called as Prakruti, or the material universe. In the material universe, nothing is constant, and is changing each moment. Material world includes all phenomena dealing with body, mind, and external perceptible universe. A Yoga Student is supposed to be accepting to all these continuously changing material things and happenings. However, it has been experienced by people that they are not totally satisfied with this. They want to find something beyond which probably does not change. In this attempt, they found what does not change. ===> Then they told that to others. And, others practice accordingly. jimg-I am not saying that there are not excellent resources out there (including writings and even this forum), but rather that things like love, creativity and the divine (Union) cannot be found by seeking, cannot be bargined for or earned; they are only available to those who have removed the obstacles and been open to them when they come. kulkarnn-How did you get this logic? From another one or from within? This is my own experience. ====> I can accept that this is your experience. But, my question is: Before you experienced, "where did you get this logic or idea that you should be open to acceptance with love and creativity, etc.". I am sure that you got at least part of that idea from the external. ===> And, that source is 'aagama', 'saint' or 'teacher', as you appropriately wrote as 'excellent sources'. If you can let go of seeking, being a Brahmin, the beliefs, the identifications, the saints, the gurus, the sutras, and the ideas of Samadhi or Nirvana, you can be free and open to love, creativity and the divine. As long as you hold on to them, you can only see through that filter and cannot see the whole or experience the unknown. Try it; you'll see! Or if you prefer, ignore all of this because these ideas don't fit you where you are right now. ===> This idea is already expressed in Yoga Philosophy. In fact, I am surprised that all the words you used are exactly used the same way. Read: Nirvanashatakam of Shree Adi Shankaracharya. | |||
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jimg - 2007-07-20 2:25 PM My definition of a path is a fixed way such as if you take I5 from Vancouver BC south you will end up in San Diego. That is true. Metaphorically speaking, San Diego can be reached from Vancouver by numerous ways, some more direct than others. If one fails and gets lost, he tries again. So, yes, the Truth is One, there are many paths. On the other hand, saying that the Truth is One, implies that ultimately, "Vancouver" and "San Diego" are but verbal designations. | |||
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kulkarnn - 2007-07-20 2:43 PM Darling Jimg: I liked your first post and gathered that you were interested in a healthy debate. There is something called healthy debate which is not arguement for quarrel. That is what I am doing. ===> I'm good with that. I am happy to share my thoughts with you and think about yours. I am also happy to re-evaluate my ideas. jimg-The is no path to truth because there can only be a path between two fixed places and you are not a fixed place and truth is also new each moment. kulkarnn-Truth is new each moment is an assumption. And, if it were a new each moment, there is nothing to find, as what you found is going to be renewed and no more truth. ===>exactly! That is why we need to develop awareness. Truth is just like love and creativity. It flows through you when you are open and as soon as you try to hold on to it (to own it, to keep it), it dissappears. OK. This is what I gather from this. First, we have to assume or accept that Truth is like love and creativity and renews each moment. And, due to this assumption, the path is 'NOT to hold on to anything', but just be aware of happening and let them come and embrace them with love. No problem, but actually to follow this path, you are still holding on to one thing, 'that is the orginal assumption'. ===>I don't consider it an assumption if it is a result of experience. This method shall work fine. But, actually, in Yoga Philosophy (which is definitely a product of realization and experience of Yogis, and not an assumption or imagination.), the statement you made already exists. However, that statement applies to nature called as Prakruti, or the material universe. In the material universe, nothing is constant, and is changing each moment. Material world includes all phenomena dealing with body, mind, and external perceptible universe. A Yoga Student is supposed to be accepting to all these continuously changing material things and happenings. However, it has been experienced by people that they are not totally satisfied with this. They want to find something beyond which probably does not change. In this attempt, they found what does not change. Then they told that to others. And, others practice accordingly. ===>Until the "others" find "what does not change", they and the telling are all part of the constantly changing world. Even after finding "what does not change", their material and energy existance is part of the constantly changing world (this is an assumption based on deduction and although probably true could also be false.) jimg-I am not saying that there are not excellent resources out there (including writings and even this forum), but rather that things like love, creativity and the divine (Union) cannot be found by seeking, cannot be bargined for or earned; they are only available to those who have removed the obstacles and been open to them when they come. kulkarnn-How did you get this logic? From another one or from within? This is my own experience. I can accept that this is your experience. But, my question is: Before you experienced, "where did you get this logic or idea that you should be open to acceptance with love and creativity, etc.". I am sure that you got at least part of that idea from the external. ===>I got the logic from seeing (being aware) of what I do; what works and what doesn't. As a musician, I have analysed the creative process and have come to these conclusions. Aren't you aware of love and how it comes to you as well as how it doesn't? Aren't you aware of your frame of mind when you get to see glimpses of the divine? In those timeless moments when you stop being a seperate being and become part of everything and everything part of you, don't you think about it and come to conclusions? And, that source is 'aagama', 'saint' or 'teacher', as you appropriately wrote as 'excellent sources'. If you can let go of seeking, being a Brahmin, the beliefs, the identifications, the saints, the gurus, the sutras, and the ideas of Samadhi or Nirvana, you can be free and open to love, creativity and the divine. As long as you hold on to them, you can only see through that filter and cannot see the whole or experience the unknown. Try it; you'll see! Or if you prefer, ignore all of this because these ideas don't fit you where you are right now. This idea is already expressed in Yoga Philosophy. In fact, I am surprised that all the words you used are exactly used the same way. Read: Nirvanashatakam of Shree Adi Shankaracharya. ===>Although these are my words, I appreciate that others have similar ideas. Where can I get "Nirvanashatakam"? | |||
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| Dear jimg: Since you have started using arrows like I do , everything is getting mixed up. So, I am starting a new method. Under Discussion1 - We shall complete one round. Then, we go to Discussion 2, etc. jimg - 2007-07-20 4:56 PM kulkarnn - 2007-07-20 2:43 PM Darling Jimg: I liked your first post and gathered that you were interested in a healthy debate. There is something called healthy debate which is not arguement for quarrel. That is what I am doing. ===> I'm good with that. I am happy to share my thoughts with you and think about yours. I am also happy to re-evaluate my ideas. Discussion 1: Neel - Wonderful. I am slightly thinking whether we are talking apples and oranges here. But, anyway, for now, let us continue. jimg-The is no path to truth because there can only be a path between two fixed places and you are not a fixed place and truth is also new each moment. kulkarnn-Truth is new each moment is an assumption. And, if it were a new each moment, there is nothing to find, as what you found is going to be renewed and no more truth. ===>exactly! That is why we need to develop awareness. Truth is just like love and creativity. It flows through you when you are open and as soon as you try to hold on to it (to own it, to keep it), it dissappears. OK. This is what I gather from this. First, we have to assume or accept that Truth is like love and creativity and renews each moment. And, due to this assumption, the path is 'NOT to hold on to anything', but just be aware of happening and let them come and embrace them with love. No problem, but actually to follow this path, you are still holding on to one thing, 'that is the orginal assumption'. ===>I don't consider it an assumption if it is a result of experience. Discussion1 ======= Neel - Please elaborate that experience. This method shall work fine. But, actually, in Yoga Philosophy (which is definitely a product of realization and experience of Yogis, and not an assumption or imagination.), the statement you made already exists. However, that statement applies to nature called as Prakruti, or the material universe. In the material universe, nothing is constant, and is changing each moment. Material world includes all phenomena dealing with body, mind, and external perceptible universe. A Yoga Student is supposed to be accepting to all these continuously changing material things and happenings. However, it has been experienced by people that they are not totally satisfied with this. They want to find something beyond which probably does not change. In this attempt, they found what does not change. Then they told that to others. And, others practice accordingly. ===>Until the "others" find "what does not change", they and the telling are all part of the constantly changing world. Even after finding "what does not change", their material and energy existance is part of the constantly changing world (this is an assumption based on deduction and although probably true could also be false.) Discussion 1 ======== Neel - When they find 'what does not change', there is no separation between them and others. Only, when they come to relative plane, they describe that 'what does not change' exists. Similar to your experience which you can not give us. We have to experience it ourselves. Yes? Once your experience is over, and by the time you are telling us anything at this time, that experience and yourself are changing as per your logic. Yes? So, it is NOT your experience then. It is the experience of what you were before, and what you are not now. jimg-I am not saying that there are not excellent resources out there (including writings and even this forum), but rather that things like love, creativity and the divine (Union) cannot be found by seeking, cannot be bargined for or earned; they are only available to those who have removed the obstacles and been open to them when they come. kulkarnn-How did you get this logic? From another one or from within? This is my own experience. I can accept that this is your experience. But, my question is: Before you experienced, "where did you get this logic or idea that you should be open to acceptance with love and creativity, etc.". I am sure that you got at least part of that idea from the external. ===>I got the logic from seeing (being aware) of what I do; what works and what doesn't. As a musician, I have analysed the creative process and have come to these conclusions. Aren't you aware of love and how it comes to you as well as how it doesn't? Aren't you aware of your frame of mind when you get to see glimpses of the divine? In those timeless moments when you stop being a seperate being and become part of everything and everything part of you, don't you think about it and come to conclusions? Discussion 1 ======== Aaahaa! When you say, your own experience. Who is that own? Own is changing. And, your experience is also changing and the experienced is also changing. So, the statement you make has no solidity or is invalid. Who is that you, whose experience is changing, and who is a musician, etc.? And, that source is 'aagama', 'saint' or 'teacher', as you appropriately wrote as 'excellent sources'. If you can let go of seeking, being a Brahmin, the beliefs, the identifications, the saints, the gurus, the sutras, and the ideas of Samadhi or Nirvana, you can be free and open to love, creativity and the divine. As long as you hold on to them, you can only see through that filter and cannot see the whole or experience the unknown. Try it; you'll see! Or if you prefer, ignore all of this because these ideas don't fit you where you are right now. This idea is already expressed in Yoga Philosophy. In fact, I am surprised that all the words you used are exactly used the same way. Read: Nirvanashatakam of Shree Adi Shankaracharya. ===>Although these are my words, I appreciate that others have similar ideas. Where can I get "Nirvanashatakam"? Discussion 1 ======== Neel - Go to this link. I have not verified the translation to be 100 percent correct. But, it might be close. http://www.indiadivine.org/hinduism/articles/220/1/Nirvana-Shatakam/ | |||
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kulkarnn - 2007-07-21 12:10 AM Dear jimg: Since you have started using arrows like I do , everything is getting mixed up. So, I am starting a new method. Under Discussion1 - We shall complete one round. Then, we go to Discussion 2, etc. jimg - 2007-07-20 4:56 PM kulkarnn - 2007-07-20 2:43 PM Darling Jimg: I liked your first post and gathered that you were interested in a healthy debate. There is something called healthy debate which is not arguement for quarrel. That is what I am doing. ===> I'm good with that. I am happy to share my thoughts with you and think about yours. I am also happy to re-evaluate my ideas. Discussion 1: Neel - Wonderful. I am slightly thinking whether we are talking apples and oranges here. But, anyway, for now, let us continue. jim-I think that we are talking mangoes. jimg-The is no path to truth because there can only be a path between two fixed places and you are not a fixed place and truth is also new each moment. kulkarnn-Truth is new each moment is an assumption. And, if it were a new each moment, there is nothing to find, as what you found is going to be renewed and no more truth. ===>exactly! That is why we need to develop awareness. Truth is just like love and creativity. It flows through you when you are open and as soon as you try to hold on to it (to own it, to keep it), it dissappears. OK. This is what I gather from this. First, we have to assume or accept that Truth is like love and creativity and renews each moment. And, due to this assumption, the path is 'NOT to hold on to anything', but just be aware of happening and let them come and embrace them with love. No problem, but actually to follow this path, you are still holding on to one thing, 'that is the orginal assumption'. ===>I don't consider it an assumption if it is a result of experience. Discussion1 ======= Neel - Please elaborate that experience. Jim-The experience is seeing something happen and understanding it. I really can't explain it better than this but can give an example. You are walking down the street and you stub your toe. This is truth. When later that day you tell your wife about it, it is no longer truth but a memory of a memory. Stubbing your toe had many parts to it that were not recorded in your mid to long term memory, so your memory is at best incomplete. When you tell your wife, you are remembering your incomplete memory of a past event, and your verbalization of that memory of an incomplete memory will be even more inaccurate as well as being colored by your emotions and self-image. When you see this process and understand it and its implications with your whole being and not just as words in your head, it is an experience (or at least that is how I am using the word). This method shall work fine. But, actually, in Yoga Philosophy (which is definitely a product of realization and experience of Yogis, and not an assumption or imagination.), the statement you made already exists. However, that statement applies to nature called as Prakruti, or the material universe. In the material universe, nothing is constant, and is changing each moment. Material world includes all phenomena dealing with body, mind, and external perceptible universe. A Yoga Student is supposed to be accepting to all these continuously changing material things and happenings. However, it has been experienced by people that they are not totally satisfied with this. They want to find something beyond which probably does not change. In this attempt, they found what does not change. Then they told that to others. And, others practice accordingly. ===>Until the "others" find "what does not change", they and the telling are all part of the constantly changing world. Even after finding "what does not change", their material and energy existance is part of the constantly changing world (this is an assumption based on deduction and although probably true could also be false.) Discussion 1 ======== Neel - When they find 'what does not change', there is no separation between them and others. Only, when they come to relative plane, they describe that 'what does not change' exists. Similar to your experience which you can not give us. We have to experience it ourselves. Yes? Once your experience is over, and by the time you are telling us anything at this time, that experience and yourself are changing as per your logic. Yes? So, it is NOT your experience then. It is the experience of what you were before, and what you are not now. Jim-Yes. (Although your first sentence is either an assumption or just repeating what someone said.) jimg-I am not saying that there are not excellent resources out there (including writings and even this forum), but rather that things like love, creativity and the divine (Union) cannot be found by seeking, cannot be bargined for or earned; they are only available to those who have removed the obstacles and been open to them when they come. kulkarnn-How did you get this logic? From another one or from within? This is my own experience. I can accept that this is your experience. But, my question is: Before you experienced, "where did you get this logic or idea that you should be open to acceptance with love and creativity, etc.". I am sure that you got at least part of that idea from the external. ===>I got the logic from seeing (being aware) of what I do; what works and what doesn't. As a musician, I have analysed the creative process and have come to these conclusions. Aren't you aware of love and how it comes to you as well as how it doesn't? Aren't you aware of your frame of mind when you get to see glimpses of the divine? In those timeless moments when you stop being a seperate being and become part of everything and everything part of you, don't you think about it and come to conclusions? Discussion 1 ======== Aaahaa! When you say, your own experience. Who is that own? Own is changing. And, your experience is also changing and the experienced is also changing. So, the statement you make has no solidity or is invalid. Who is that you, whose experience is changing, and who is a musician, etc.? jim-Finding who you really are (not your self-image or identifications or beliefs) is self-realization. My experience (which is always changing) has lead me to the hypothesis (which will also change) that love and creativity are part of this self and that there is a lot more. I know some important parts of how love and creativity work and see a definite similarity between love and creativity and the unknown, truth, God or whatever you want to call it. This is based on my experience, or better said my interpretation (which can also change) of my experience. And, that source is 'aagama', 'saint' or 'teacher', as you appropriately wrote as 'excellent sources'. If you can let go of seeking, being a Brahmin, the beliefs, the identifications, the saints, the gurus, the sutras, and the ideas of Samadhi or Nirvana, you can be free and open to love, creativity and the divine. As long as you hold on to them, you can only see through that filter and cannot see the whole or experience the unknown. Try it; you'll see! Or if you prefer, ignore all of this because these ideas don't fit you where you are right now. This idea is already expressed in Yoga Philosophy. In fact, I am surprised that all the words you used are exactly used the same way. Read: Nirvanashatakam of Shree Adi Shankaracharya. ===>Although these are my words, I appreciate that others have similar ideas. Where can I get "Nirvanashatakam"? Discussion 1 ======== Neel - Go to this link. I have not verified the translation to be 100 percent correct. But, it might be close. http://www.indiadivine.org/hinduism/articles/220/1/Nirvana-Shatakam/ Jim-Thanks PS-I just got home from a performance and it is very late so I hope that this makes sense. | |||
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jimg - 2007-07-21 3:40 AM kulkarnn - 2007-07-21 12:10 AM Dear jimg: Since you have started using arrows like I do , everything is getting mixed up. So, I am starting a new method. Under Discussion1 - We shall complete one round. Then, we go to Discussion 2, etc. jimg - 2007-07-20 4:56 PM kulkarnn - 2007-07-20 2:43 PM Darling Jimg: I liked your first post and gathered that you were interested in a healthy debate. There is something called healthy debate which is not arguement for quarrel. That is what I am doing. ===> I'm good with that. I am happy to share my thoughts with you and think about yours. I am also happy to re-evaluate my ideas. Discussion 1: ========= Neel - Wonderful. I am slightly thinking whether we are talking apples and oranges here. But, anyway, for now, let us continue. jim-I think that we are talking mangoes. Discussion 2 ======== Neel - I like ManGoes. Man, let us Go for it. jimg-The is no path to truth because there can only be a path between two fixed places and you are not a fixed place and truth is also new each moment. kulkarnn-Truth is new each moment is an assumption. And, if it were a new each moment, there is nothing to find, as what you found is going to be renewed and no more truth. ===>exactly! That is why we need to develop awareness. Truth is just like love and creativity. It flows through you when you are open and as soon as you try to hold on to it (to own it, to keep it), it dissappears. OK. This is what I gather from this. First, we have to assume or accept that Truth is like love and creativity and renews each moment. And, due to this assumption, the path is 'NOT to hold on to anything', but just be aware of happening and let them come and embrace them with love. No problem, but actually to follow this path, you are still holding on to one thing, 'that is the orginal assumption'. ===>I don't consider it an assumption if it is a result of experience. Discussion1 ======= Neel - Please elaborate that experience. Jim-The experience is seeing something happen and understanding it. I really can't explain it better than this but can give an example. You are walking down the street and you stub your toe. This is truth. When later that day you tell your wife about it, it is no longer truth but a memory of a memory. Stubbing your toe had many parts to it that were not recorded in your mid to long term memory, so your memory is at best incomplete. When you tell your wife, you are remembering your incomplete memory of a past event, and your verbalization of that memory of an incomplete memory will be even more inaccurate as well as being colored by your emotions and self-image. When you see this process and understand it and its implications with your whole being and not just as words in your head, it is an experience (or at least that is how I am using the word). Discussion 2 ======== Neel - I see. Now, question: Assuming that you have a 5 year old child who is now about to get his toe stubbed, as you are seeing it: Will you use your memory of the hurt with your stubbing your own toe, and do something about his not getting stubbed, yes/no? ================================================================= This method shall work fine. But, actually, in Yoga Philosophy (which is definitely a product of realization and experience of Yogis, and not an assumption or imagination.), the statement you made already exists. However, that statement applies to nature called as Prakruti, or the material universe. In the material universe, nothing is constant, and is changing each moment. Material world includes all phenomena dealing with body, mind, and external perceptible universe. A Yoga Student is supposed to be accepting to all these continuously changing material things and happenings. However, it has been experienced by people that they are not totally satisfied with this. They want to find something beyond which probably does not change. In this attempt, they found what does not change. Then they told that to others. And, others practice accordingly. ===>Until the "others" find "what does not change", they and the telling are all part of the constantly changing world. Even after finding "what does not change", their material and energy existance is part of the constantly changing world (this is an assumption based on deduction and although probably true could also be false.) Discussion 1 ======== Neel - When they find 'what does not change', there is no separation between them and others. Only, when they come to relative plane, they describe that 'what does not change' exists. Similar to your experience which you can not give us. We have to experience it ourselves. Yes? Once your experience is over, and by the time you are telling us anything at this time, that experience and yourself are changing as per your logic. Yes? So, it is NOT your experience then. It is the experience of what you were before, and what you are not now. Jim-Yes. (Although your first sentence is either an assumption or just repeating what someone said.) Discussion 2 ======== Neel - Yes, I agree that I am quoting what others have said. But, my point of view is 'what others have said' is going to be the basis of my practice, opposite to your plan/idea. Now, due to your stating 'Yes' to my above question, (please read again), the usefulness or validity of your statement becomes useless to others, or even yourself. Possibly, it is useful to you, but not others. Yes/No? ================================================= jimg-I am not saying that there are not excellent resources out there (including writings and even this forum), but rather that things like love, creativity and the divine (Union) cannot be found by seeking, cannot be bargined for or earned; they are only available to those who have removed the obstacles and been open to them when they come. kulkarnn-How did you get this logic? From another one or from within? This is my own experience. I can accept that this is your experience. But, my question is: Before you experienced, "where did you get this logic or idea that you should be open to acceptance with love and creativity, etc.". I am sure that you got at least part of that idea from the external. ===>I got the logic from seeing (being aware) of what I do; what works and what doesn't. As a musician, I have analysed the creative process and have come to these conclusions. Aren't you aware of love and how it comes to you as well as how it doesn't? Aren't you aware of your frame of mind when you get to see glimpses of the divine? In those timeless moments when you stop being a seperate being and become part of everything and everything part of you, don't you think about it and come to conclusions? Discussion 1 ======== Aaahaa! When you say, your own experience. Who is that own? Own is changing. And, your experience is also changing and the experienced is also changing. So, the statement you make has no solidity or is invalid. Who is that you, whose experience is changing, and who is a musician, etc.? jim-Finding who you really are (not your self-image or identifications or beliefs) is self-realization. My experience (which is always changing) has lead me to the hypothesis (which will also change) that love and creativity are part of this self and that there is a lot more. I know some important parts of how love and creativity work and see a definite similarity between love and creativity and the unknown, truth, God or whatever you want to call it. This is based on my experience, or better said my interpretation (which can also change) of my experience. Discussion 2 ========= Neel - Firstly, I wish to thank you. As, I am enjoying talking with you and you are not a fluffy guy who changes their logic with time. Thnaks. Now, looking at your above statement, I conclude that your logic is very useful to you, but it is doubtful whether it can be useful in general to others. Yes/No? And, that source is 'aagama', 'saint' or 'teacher', as you appropriately wrote as 'excellent sources'. If you can let go of seeking, being a Brahmin, the beliefs, the identifications, the saints, the gurus, the sutras, and the ideas of Samadhi or Nirvana, you can be free and open to love, creativity and the divine. As long as you hold on to them, you can only see through that filter and cannot see the whole or experience the unknown. Try it; you'll see! Or if you prefer, ignore all of this because these ideas don't fit you where you are right now. This idea is already expressed in Yoga Philosophy. In fact, I am surprised that all the words you used are exactly used the same way. Read: Nirvanashatakam of Shree Adi Shankaracharya. ===>Although these are my words, I appreciate that others have similar ideas. Where can I get "Nirvanashatakam"? Discussion 1 ======== Neel - Go to this link. I have not verified the translation to be 100 percent correct. But, it might be close. http://www.indiadivine.org/hinduism/articles/220/1/Nirvana-Shatakam/ Jim-Thanks PS-I just got home from a performance and it is very late so I hope that this makes sense. Discussion 2 ========= Neel - This was only info. So, do when possible. =============================================================== | |||
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kulkarnn - 2007-07-22 7:18 PM Dear jimg: Since you have started using arrows like I do , everything is getting mixed up. So, I am starting a new method. Under Discussion1 - We shall complete one round. Then, we go to Discussion 2, etc. Thankyou Neel. This is a brilliant discussion, but the post's were making me completely lost Jonathon | |||
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Expert Yogi Posts: 5098   Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | No Kidding Jonnie. I wish ya'll would learn how to use the "quote" feature...because I can't understand who is saying what???!!!! This discussion sure is mighty interestin' though, NB, do you not know how to start and end your quotes?? It goes like this....whenever you want to quote someone...you either copy and paste the text or hit the quote instead of reply....then, you make sure that at the beginning of each individual quote...it looks like this....I'm going to use these { }brackets to demonstrate, but, the actual one you use are these: [ ] Here goes... to quote me, Cyndi say's above...... type it just like this..... {quote} I wish ya'll would learn how to use the "quote" feature...because I can't understand who is saying what???!!!! This discussion sure is mighty interestin' though, {/quote} and if you do...it should look like this: I wish ya'll would learn how to use the "quote" feature...because I can't understand who is saying what???!!!! This discussion sure is mighty interestin' though, Notice the forward slash at the end quote...did ya get that??? God I hope so, Edited by Cyndi 2007-07-21 6:41 PM | ||
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| I like to use QUOTE option. But, when used too many times, it creates a problem to be solved by Ollie's kind. But, I shall use it properly henceforth. | |||
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| Discussion 1: ========= Neel - Wonderful. I am slightly thinking whether we are talking apples and oranges here. But, anyway, for now, let us continue. jim-I think that we are talking mangoes. Discussion 2 ======== Neel - I like ManGoes. Man, let us Go for it. jimg-The is no path to truth because there can only be a path between two fixed places and you are not a fixed place and truth is also new each moment. kulkarnn-Truth is new each moment is an assumption. And, if it were a new each moment, there is nothing to find, as what you found is going to be renewed and no more truth. Jim-exactly! That is why we need to develop awareness. Truth is just like love and creativity. It flows through you when you are open and as soon as you try to hold on to it (to own it, to keep it), it dissappears. Neel-OK. This is what I gather from this. First, we have to assume or accept that Truth is like love and creativity and renews each moment. And, due to this assumption, the path is 'NOT to hold on to anything', but just be aware of happening and let them come and embrace them with love. No problem, but actually to follow this path, you are still holding on to one thing, 'that is the orginal assumption'. Jim-I don't consider it an assumption if it is a result of experience. Discussion1 ======= Neel - Please elaborate that experience. Jim-The experience is seeing something happen and understanding it. I really can't explain it better than this but can give an example. You are walking down the street and you stub your toe. This is truth. When later that day you tell your wife about it, it is no longer truth but a memory of a memory. Stubbing your toe had many parts to it that were not recorded in your mid to long term memory, so your memory is at best incomplete. When you tell your wife, you are remembering your incomplete memory of a past event, and your verbalization of that memory of an incomplete memory will be even more inaccurate as well as being colored by your emotions and self-image. When you see this process and understand it and its implications with your whole being and not just as words in your head, it is an experience (or at least that is how I am using the word). Discussion 2 ======== Neel - I see. Now, question: Assuming that you have a 5 year old child who is now about to get his toe stubbed, as you are seeing it: Will you use your memory of the hurt with your stubbing your own toe, and do something about his not getting stubbed, yes/no? Jim-Maybe yes and maybe no. If I let him stub his toe I am allowing him to learn for himself. If I stop him from stubbing his toe, he doesn't have a stubbed toe but also probably didn't learn anything and will continue to stub his toe when I'm not there. ================================================================= Neel-This method shall work fine. But, actually, in Yoga Philosophy (which is definitely a product of realization and experience of Yogis, and not an assumption or imagination.), the statement you made already exists. However, that statement applies to nature called as Prakruti, or the material universe. In the material universe, nothing is constant, and is changing each moment. Material world includes all phenomena dealing with body, mind, and external perceptible universe. A Yoga Student is supposed to be accepting to all these continuously changing material things and happenings. However, it has been experienced by people that they are not totally satisfied with this. They want to find something beyond which probably does not change. In this attempt, they found what does not change. Then they told that to others. And, others practice accordingly. Jim-Until the "others" find "what does not change", they and the telling are all part of the constantly changing world. Even after finding "what does not change", their material and energy existance is part of the constantly changing world (this is an assumption based on deduction and although probably true could also be false.) Discussion 1 ======== Neel - When they find 'what does not change', there is no separation between them and others. Only, when they come to relative plane, they describe that 'what does not change' exists. Similar to your experience which you can not give us. We have to experience it ourselves. Yes? Once your experience is over, and by the time you are telling us anything at this time, that experience and yourself are changing as per your logic. Yes? So, it is NOT your experience then. It is the experience of what you were before, and what you are not now. Jim-Yes. (Although your first sentence is either an assumption or just repeating what someone said.) Discussion 2 ======== Neel - Yes, I agree that I am quoting what others have said. But, my point of view is 'what others have said' is going to be the basis of my practice, opposite to your plan/idea. Now, due to your stating 'Yes' to my above question, (please read again), the usefulness or validity of your statement becomes useless to others, or even yourself. Possibly, it is useful to you, but not others. Yes/No? Jim-It is useful to me but only useful to others as encouragement to find their own truth. (I am not against using everything available as a resource; I encourage it to myself and to others. I only disagree with the practice of limiting the resources to those that fit a particular path or method.) ================================================= jimg-I am not saying that there are not excellent resources out there (including writings and even this forum), but rather that things like love, creativity and the divine (Union) cannot be found by seeking, cannot be bargined for or earned; they are only available to those who have removed the obstacles and been open to them when they come. kulkarnn-How did you get this logic? From another one or from within? Jim-This is my own experience. Neel-I can accept that this is your experience. But, my question is: Before you experienced, "where did you get this logic or idea that you should be open to acceptance with love and creativity, etc.". I am sure that you got at least part of that idea from the external. Jim-I got the logic from seeing (being aware) of what I do; what works and what doesn't. As a musician, I have analysed the creative process and have come to these conclusions. Aren't you aware of love and how it comes to you as well as how it doesn't? Aren't you aware of your frame of mind when you get to see glimpses of the divine? In those timeless moments when you stop being a seperate being and become part of everything and everything part of you, don't you think about it and come to conclusions? Discussion 1 ======== Aaahaa! When you say, your own experience. Who is that own? Own is changing. And, your experience is also changing and the experienced is also changing. So, the statement you make has no solidity or is invalid. Who is that you, whose experience is changing, and who is a musician, etc.? jim-Finding who you really are (not your self-image or identifications or beliefs) is self-realization. My experience (which is always changing) has lead me to the hypothesis (which will also change) that love and creativity are part of this self and that there is a lot more. I know some important parts of how love and creativity work and see a definite similarity between love and creativity and the unknown, truth, God or whatever you want to call it. This is based on my experience, or better said my interpretation (which can also change) of my experience. Discussion 2 ========= Neel - Firstly, I wish to thank you. As, I am enjoying talking with you and you are not a fluffy guy who changes their logic with time. Thnaks. Now, looking at your above statement, I conclude that your logic is very useful to you, but it is doubtful whether it can be useful in general to others. Yes/No? Jim-It is useful to me and I encourage everyone to find what is useful for them (which may be very different). What was useful for me when I was 16, 20, 30, 40 or 50 is different today and what is useful for me when I am 60 will also be different. Since this entire reality that we live in is changing we need to also change. Assuming that a reality that is timeless and changeless exists doesn't change the fact that the world of matter and energy (body and mind) is constantly changing. We are also part of that constantly changing matter and energy regardless of what is going on outside that continuum or whether we have recognized that timeless state or not. This is why I am convinced that the only answer is awareness (which is flexible), not following any method (which is static). Only awareness can change with the demands of the changing world; only awareness continues to grow. I used to go home from work for lunch. Often I would have a problem (like a computer programming problem) that I couldn't solve. After enjoying lunch with my wife and daughters I would return to work. As I pulled into the parking lot, the answer to my problem would just come to me (even though I hadn't thought about during lunch). I'm sure many other people have experienced the same kind of thing. The reason that I couldn't find the answer at work was because my mind was limiting the possible solutions. I had a preconcieved idea of the answer and could not see clearly, could not "think outside of the box". Once I was removed from my own mental limitations (preconcieved ideas), the answer was clear. The same concept applies to love, creativity and enlightenment. If the unenlightened (unloving, uncreative) mind decides what enlightenment (love, creativity) is and then tries to attain it, that mind will not find it as it will only be looking for that which is unenlightened (unloving, uncreative), that which it already knows. That mind will not recognize enlightenment unless it fits his or her unenlightened idea of what enlightenment is. This is why I believe that the best "path" is to not follow a path, but rather remove the limitations, so that love, creativity and enlightenment can florish. Neel-And, that source is 'aagama', 'saint' or 'teacher', as you appropriately wrote as 'excellent sources'. Jim-If you can let go of seeking, being a Brahmin, the beliefs, the identifications, the saints, the gurus, the sutras, and the ideas of Samadhi or Nirvana, you can be free and open to love, creativity and the divine. As long as you hold on to them, you can only see through that filter and cannot see the whole or experience the unknown. Try it; you'll see! Or if you prefer, ignore all of this because these ideas don't fit you where you are right now. This idea is already expressed in Yoga Philosophy. In fact, I am surprised that all the words you used are exactly used the same way. Read: Nirvanashatakam of Shree Adi Shankaracharya. Jim-Although these are my words, I appreciate that others have similar ideas. Where can I get "Nirvanashatakam"? Discussion 1 ======== Neel - Go to this link. I have not verified the translation to be 100 percent correct. But, it might be close. http://www.indiadivine.org/hinduism/articles/220/1/Nirvana-Shatakam/ Jim-Thanks =============================================================== | |||
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jimg - 2007-07-22 3:32 AM Discussion 1: ========= Neel - Wonderful. I am slightly thinking whether we are talking apples and oranges here. But, anyway, for now, let us continue. jim-I think that we are talking mangoes. Discussion 2 ======== Neel - I like ManGoes. Man, let us Go for it. jimg-The is no path to truth because there can only be a path between two fixed places and you are not a fixed place and truth is also new each moment. kulkarnn-Truth is new each moment is an assumption. And, if it were a new each moment, there is nothing to find, as what you found is going to be renewed and no more truth. Jim-exactly! That is why we need to develop awareness. Truth is just like love and creativity. It flows through you when you are open and as soon as you try to hold on to it (to own it, to keep it), it dissappears. Neel-OK. This is what I gather from this. First, we have to assume or accept that Truth is like love and creativity and renews each moment. And, due to this assumption, the path is 'NOT to hold on to anything', but just be aware of happening and let them come and embrace them with love. No problem, but actually to follow this path, you are still holding on to one thing, 'that is the orginal assumption'. Jim-I don't consider it an assumption if it is a result of experience. Discussion1 ======= Neel - Please elaborate that experience. Jim-The experience is seeing something happen and understanding it. I really can't explain it better than this but can give an example. You are walking down the street and you stub your toe. This is truth. When later that day you tell your wife about it, it is no longer truth but a memory of a memory. Stubbing your toe had many parts to it that were not recorded in your mid to long term memory, so your memory is at best incomplete. When you tell your wife, you are remembering your incomplete memory of a past event, and your verbalization of that memory of an incomplete memory will be even more inaccurate as well as being colored by your emotions and self-image. When you see this process and understand it and its implications with your whole being and not just as words in your head, it is an experience (or at least that is how I am using the word). Discussion 2 ======== Neel - I see. Now, question: Assuming that you have a 5 year old child who is now about to get his toe stubbed, as you are seeing it: Will you use your memory of the hurt with your stubbing your own toe, and do something about his not getting stubbed, yes/no? Jim-Maybe yes and maybe no. If I let him stub his toe I am allowing him to learn for himself. If I stop him from stubbing his toe, he doesn't have a stubbed toe but also probably didn't learn anything and will continue to stub his toe when I'm not there. Discussion 3 ========== Neel - Thanks jimg. So, there is no 'Definite NO'. It is 'May be Yes or May be No'. However, stubbing toe is only one example, as you gave it. Can be murdering someone, or drinking alcohol, or taking drugs. Will you feel the same in all these cases or slightly different? But, I accept your logic above. ================================================================= Neel-This method shall work fine. But, actually, in Yoga Philosophy (which is definitely a product of realization and experience of Yogis, and not an assumption or imagination.), the statement you made already exists. However, that statement applies to nature called as Prakruti, or the material universe. In the material universe, nothing is constant, and is changing each moment. Material world includes all phenomena dealing with body, mind, and external perceptible universe. A Yoga Student is supposed to be accepting to all these continuously changing material things and happenings. However, it has been experienced by people that they are not totally satisfied with this. They want to find something beyond which probably does not change. In this attempt, they found what does not change. Then they told that to others. And, others practice accordingly. Jim-Until the "others" find "what does not change", they and the telling are all part of the constantly changing world. Even after finding "what does not change", their material and energy existance is part of the constantly changing world (this is an assumption based on deduction and although probably true could also be false.) Discussion 1 ======== Neel - When they find 'what does not change', there is no separation between them and others. Only, when they come to relative plane, they describe that 'what does not change' exists. Similar to your experience which you can not give us. We have to experience it ourselves. Yes? Once your experience is over, and by the time you are telling us anything at this time, that experience and yourself are changing as per your logic. Yes? So, it is NOT your experience then. It is the experience of what you were before, and what you are not now. Jim-Yes. (Although your first sentence is either an assumption or just repeating what someone said.) Discussion 2 ======== Neel - Yes, I agree that I am quoting what others have said. But, my point of view is 'what others have said' is going to be the basis of my practice, opposite to your plan/idea. Now, due to your stating 'Yes' to my above question, (please read again), the usefulness or validity of your statement becomes useless to others, or even yourself. Possibly, it is useful to you, but not others. Yes/No? Jim-It is useful to me but only useful to others as encouragement to find their own truth. (I am not against using everything available as a resource; I encourage it to myself and to others. I only disagree with the practice of limiting the resources to those that fit a particular path or method.) Discussion 3 ======== That is wonderful. In the Yoga Philosophy, there is no limit to paths, as Kaos, himself said in response to your statement that there is only one path. See Patanjali first chapter: yathaabhimatadhyaanadvaa... By adopting any principle of one's own choice (is the method to self realization). See upanishad - ekam sat sadvipraa bahudaa vadanti (same truth or principle is expressed in varied ways by many sages.) ETC ETC. I can quote upto 100. ================================================= jimg-I am not saying that there are not excellent resources out there (including writings and even this forum), but rather that things like love, creativity and the divine (Union) cannot be found by seeking, cannot be bargined for or earned; they are only available to those who have removed the obstacles and been open to them when they come. kulkarnn-How did you get this logic? From another one or from within? Jim-This is my own experience. Neel-I can accept that this is your experience. But, my question is: Before you experienced, "where did you get this logic or idea that you should be open to acceptance with love and creativity, etc.". I am sure that you got at least part of that idea from the external. Jim-I got the logic from seeing (being aware) of what I do; what works and what doesn't. As a musician, I have analysed the creative process and have come to these conclusions. Aren't you aware of love and how it comes to you as well as how it doesn't? Aren't you aware of your frame of mind when you get to see glimpses of the divine? In those timeless moments when you stop being a seperate being and become part of everything and everything part of you, don't you think about it and come to conclusions? Discussion 1 ======== Aaahaa! When you say, your own experience. Who is that own? Own is changing. And, your experience is also changing and the experienced is also changing. So, the statement you make has no solidity or is invalid. Who is that you, whose experience is changing, and who is a musician, etc.? jim-Finding who you really are (not your self-image or identifications or beliefs) is self-realization. My experience (which is always changing) has lead me to the hypothesis (which will also change) that love and creativity are part of this self and that there is a lot more. I know some important parts of how love and creativity work and see a definite similarity between love and creativity and the unknown, truth, God or whatever you want to call it. This is based on my experience, or better said my interpretation (which can also change) of my experience. Discussion 2 ========= Neel - Firstly, I wish to thank you. As, I am enjoying talking with you and you are not a fluffy guy who changes their logic with time. Thnaks. Now, looking at your above statement, I conclude that your logic is very useful to you, but it is doubtful whether it can be useful in general to others. Yes/No? Jim-It is useful to me and I encourage everyone to find what is useful for them (which may be very different). What was useful for me when I was 16, 20, 30, 40 or 50 is different today and what is useful for me when I am 60 will also be different. Since this entire reality that we live in is changing we need to also change. Assuming that a reality that is timeless and changeless exists doesn't change the fact that the world of matter and energy (body and mind) is constantly changing. We are also part of that constantly changing matter and energy regardless of what is going on outside that continuum or whether we have recognized that timeless state or not. This is why I am convinced that the only answer is awareness (which is flexible), not following any method (which is static). Only awareness can change with the demands of the changing world; only awareness continues to grow. I used to go home from work for lunch. Often I would have a problem (like a computer programming problem) that I couldn't solve. After enjoying lunch with my wife and daughters I would return to work. As I pulled into the parking lot, the answer to my problem would just come to me (even though I hadn't thought about during lunch). I'm sure many other people have experienced the same kind of thing. The reason that I couldn't find the answer at work was because my mind was limiting the possible solutions. I had a preconcieved idea of the answer and could not see clearly, could not "think outside of the box". Once I was removed from my own mental limitations (preconcieved ideas), the answer was clear. The same concept applies to love, creativity and enlightenment. If the unenlightened (unloving, uncreative) mind decides what enlightenment (love, creativity) is and then tries to attain it, that mind will not find it as it will only be looking for that which is unenlightened (unloving, uncreative), that which it already knows. That mind will not recognize enlightenment unless it fits his or her unenlightened idea of what enlightenment is. This is why I believe that the best "path" is to not follow a path, but rather remove the limitations, so that love, creativity and enlightenment can florish. Discussion 3 ========= Wonderful. I also understand your solving computer problem example. And, that is what exactly Yoga Path means. yogashchittavrutiinirodhaH..... Patanjali 2nd sutra. In this the Sage Patanjali is indicating that all pre-habituated fluctuations should be stopped, so that a proper understanding shall come. nirvichaaravaishaaradye (after getting skill in not having preconceived ideas) adhyaatmaprasaadaH (real understanding shall dawn). ritamharaa tratra prajnaa (his interllect will be Truth filled). shrutaanumaana prajnaabhyaamanyavishayaa.... (the understanding from such intellect is different and not confined to that from 'what others said' and 'what is from deduction'). ETC. What is happening is: You are suggesting is that a person should give up all paths so that he can follow this 'awareness' thing as you call it. What the path of Yoga is telling is: follow certain practices so that preconceived ideas shall be modified and removed so that one shall get used to 'pure awareness'. After the awareness is developed there is no need of practices. Neel-And, that source is 'aagama', 'saint' or 'teacher', as you appropriately wrote as 'excellent sources'. Jim-If you can let go of seeking, being a Brahmin, the beliefs, the identifications, the saints, the gurus, the sutras, and the ideas of Samadhi or Nirvana, you can be free and open to love, creativity and the divine. As long as you hold on to them, you can only see through that filter and cannot see the whole or experience the unknown. Try it; you'll see! Or if you prefer, ignore all of this because these ideas don't fit you where you are right now. This idea is already expressed in Yoga Philosophy. In fact, I am surprised that all the words you used are exactly used the same way. Read: Nirvanashatakam of Shree Adi Shankaracharya. Jim-Although these are my words, I appreciate that others have similar ideas. Where can I get "Nirvanashatakam"? Discussion 1 ======== Neel - Go to this link. I have not verified the translation to be 100 percent correct. But, it might be close. http://www.indiadivine.org/hinduism/articles/220/1/Nirvana-Shatakam/ Jim-Thanks =============================================================== | |||
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| Hello Neel, Neel-"What is happening is: You are suggesting is that a person should give up all paths so that he can follow this 'awareness' thing as you call it. What the path of Yoga is telling is: follow certain practices so that preconceived ideas shall be modified and removed so that one shall get used to 'pure awareness'. After the awareness is developed there is no need of practices." It seems to me that you are saying that if you follow the yogic "Path", using predetermined methods and following the holy texts, you will get to "pure awareness." You still allow that at that point or earlier, your preconcieved ideas must be removed and you must transcend the words and experience that which is beyond words. What I am saying is that if you remove your personal and cultural conditioning, your beliefs and indentifications, your physical and mental blockages, your seeking and methodologies, and develop your awareness, you will get to "pure awareness." (Since "pure awareness" is there in the first place, all you have to do is remove your obstacles, just like the love and creativity examples.) I also acknowledge that external inputs are not only useful but required as otherwise you can lose your frame of reference. (You have to be careful not to get lost when not using a predetermined path!) I think that we are kind of saying the same thing from two different angles! There is one important thing that we have both forgotten to mention. That is balance! As long as you or I cling to one side or the other, we will not have balance. Attachment to the part while ignoring the whole puts us out of balance. Taking sides requires force (which is violence). Seeing both the parts and the whole is peace. Peace is active without force. Namaste, Jim P.S. You probably noticed that I view things in a non-dualistic way; ie matter and energy are the same, mind and body are the same, all is one and one is all, etc etc. although these are again only words or simple symbols instead of reality. | |||
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