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any atheists here?
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ollie
Posted 2007-06-09 7:57 PM (#89049)
Subject: any atheists here?


What I mean is that are there any people around here who practice yoga but believe in nothing "supernatural"?

(or, if you love yoga class AND books like the "God Delusion")

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GreenJello
Posted 2007-06-09 8:20 PM (#89050 - in reply to #89049)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


What a huge can of worms to open, you're a very brave man aren't you? (Or is it just the ability to hide behind a keyboard that prompts such bravado?)

I'd say that I am an atheist, since I do not believe in God in the traditional Christian way. Atheism traditionally has dealt almost exclusively with Christianity, since it's a English or western word. However, I also dislike the idea of atheism for exactly this reason, it directly and deliberately opposed to Christianity. As we all know, by opposing something you give it strength, definition, and additional meaning. Since I have no desire to do this, I would also say that I am NOT an atheist.

So, what am I? Somebody who is unwilling to accept the answers he has been given, while also opposing the desire or label of somebody who believes in nothing beyond the purely physical. Why should the Christians (or Hindus, or Taoists, Wiccans, or Satanists) be the sole determiners of what is God, and how he/she/it manifests?
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-06-09 11:09 PM (#89054 - in reply to #89049)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


Can of worms opened for sure! Dear Ollie: Now when you say people practice Yoga, but without believing God. Then, the question will be 'what yoga would mean to such a person' and 'what will be the goal of such a person'. For example, if the goal of a person is to make the hamstrings flexible, then he/she has to do forward bends without believing God. But, if the goal is self realization, now the question is what is self and then what is realization, etc.

GJ wrote: Why should the Christians (or Hindus, or Taoists, Wiccans, or Satanists) be the sole determiners of what is God, and how he/she/it manifests?
===> The problem is most of our things are decided by the past regardless of research put in. Even great Scientists such as Eienstein actually find very little new, and cling to the old.

pratyakshaanumaanaagamaH pramanani...In the material science pratyaksha (that is witnessed) proof is the best, whereas in the spirituality aagama (words of scriptures) is the best proof.


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Bob
Posted 2007-06-10 3:39 AM (#89060 - in reply to #89049)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


To answer this question, each should determine for self ideas (concepts) of God, trust and atheism. I believe that these things will be very different for different people.

For example Zen Kong-an:

I was God inside God
before this timebound Me,
and shall be God again
When from my Me set free.

1. "I was God inside God". What does this mean?
2. When will your Me be set free?

Answer:
God made everithing, so everithing has God-nature.
If mind appears, you lose God-nature.
But if you take away mind, you are always sitting with God.

What is God? Whom I should trust? Is it atheistic position?





Edited by Bob 2007-06-10 4:01 AM
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jonnie
Posted 2007-06-10 3:52 AM (#89061 - in reply to #89049)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


Picking up on Neel's post...

I think a person can practise aspects of Yoga without believing in God (i.e. asana). But if we accept that Yoga is Union with the divine, then a belief in the divine would be necessary to achieve this goal (whatever word or language pattern a person may choose to describe the divine).

Jonathon
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jonnie
Posted 2007-06-10 3:57 AM (#89062 - in reply to #89049)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


...and talking of how people represent the divine, this was on the BBC today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6734469.stm

Very strange
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-06-10 6:59 AM (#89074 - in reply to #89049)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


Jonnie: You got some unbelievable ( I mean unbelievable in amount or extent) information.
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ollie
Posted 2007-06-10 8:16 AM (#89076 - in reply to #89062)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


jonnie - 2007-06-10 2:57 AM

...and talking of how people represent the divine, this was on the BBC today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6734469.stm

Very strange


Not so strange; in fact Dawkins takes up stuff like this in his God Delusion book.

By the way, by atheist, I mean that someone who does not believe that there is something that will alter the known laws of science on their behalf; or put another way: doesn't have "faith" meaning that one doesn't believe in stuff that there is no hardcore evidence for.

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SCThornley
Posted 2007-06-10 9:26 AM (#89077 - in reply to #89076)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


ollie - 2007-06-10 8:16 AM

jonnie - 2007-06-10 2:57 AM

...and talking of how people represent the divine, this was on the BBC today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6734469.stm

Very strange


Not so strange; in fact Dawkins takes up stuff like this in his God Delusion book.

By the way, by atheist, I mean that someone who does not believe that there is something that will alter the known laws of science on their behalf; or put another way: doesn't have "faith" meaning that one doesn't believe in stuff that there is no hardcore evidence for.



I practice Yoga,

however I don't believe in other peoples' nor history's interpretations of what God is, other than a very few bright lights in the midnights of our eternities.

Atheism and all other -isms, religions, groups, parties, clans, families, sewing circles, bureaucracies, governments, schools, globally accepted, democratically elected, any group thought tends to show me it's flaw in some subjectively acceptable way sooner or later.

I have MY relationship with what others have labeled GOD, the divine, the Ghost, the spirit, the WHATEVER, but I KNOW that I don't experience the same as every other single person on the earth.

My IDEA of what GOD is isn't something that I could possibly explain.[EDIT--I could try, but I don't wanna argue, and it's not that important for me to explain it, I have it, and in my way of thinking we all do, if you don't see it, I ain't gonna tell you what time it says on your watch]

MORE than anything, I KNOW that my beliefs are not something that I can explain. Like I BELIEVE that you should NOT recruit in the name of GOD.


I know that if there is a GOD, that GOD can take care of getting the message out.

I believe things, yet I know that belief carries ignorance, but not nearly as much as believing that you know a thing based on some 'fact' that is yet to be disproved.



What is knowledge and what is belief.

Faith is belief and it carries ignorance, it embodies ignorance, but


there are some things that you will never know, and not knowing is O'kay.

Edited by SCThornley 2007-06-10 9:29 AM
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SCThornley
Posted 2007-06-10 9:46 AM (#89078 - in reply to #89049)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


http://thephoenix.com/article_ektid41370.aspx
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ollie
Posted 2007-06-10 9:58 AM (#89079 - in reply to #89049)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


Anyway, the purpose of my post was to see if there are any others like myself here; it wasn't to poke a stick in anyone's eye.

By the way, I do my morning meditation while sitting in an easy cross legged postion and I do it because it calms and centers ME; for me this is a perfectly natural, secular thing.



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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-06-10 10:26 AM (#89080 - in reply to #89076)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


ollie - 2007-06-10 8:16 AM


By the way, by atheist, I mean that someone who does not believe that there is something that will alter the known laws of science on their behalf; or put another way: doesn't have "faith" meaning that one doesn't believe in stuff that there is no hardcore evidence for.



But, the laws are not of science. Laws are of Nature. And, Nature is the manifested version of God. So, I guess you are not athiest. You are materialist theist!!!
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SCThornley
Posted 2007-06-10 12:11 PM (#89088 - in reply to #89079)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


ollie - 2007-06-10 9:58 AM

Anyway, the purpose of my post was to see if there are any others like myself here; it wasn't to poke a stick in anyone's eye.

By the way, I do my morning meditation while sitting in an easy cross legged postion and I do it because it calms and centers ME; for me this is a perfectly natural, secular thing.





standing alone at the edge of the unknown is 'lonely' and from what I've learned about 'God' and all the -isms is it's better to admit that you simply don't know.

we don't need to make up mythologies to make us feel better, but the not needing doesn't automatically negate the possibility of the most unlikely possibility.

I like to imagine that I know infinity exists.

As a concept, it's pretty neat, and if it does exist, then the possibility of GOD is a part of infinity.

so, I'm not a subscriber to any -ism

but

I do want to know that GOD is a real possibility, and not knowing is OK

I'd like to point to something that would make us know that we are very alike in the ways you seek

I'd like to know that I'm not alone in my thinking

I'd like to believe that others are the same way

The very ideal of togetherness is something I believe we all seek

But
I don't know it
and not knowing is fine

but "knowing is half the battle"-G.I. Joe
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SCThornley
Posted 2007-06-10 12:13 PM (#89089 - in reply to #89050)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


GreenJello - 2007-06-09 8:20 PM

What a huge can of worms to open, you're a very brave man aren't you? (Or is it just the ability to hide behind a keyboard that prompts such bravado?)

I'd say that I am an atheist, since I do not believe in God in the traditional Christian way. Atheism traditionally has dealt almost exclusively with Christianity, since it's a English or western word. However, I also dislike the idea of atheism for exactly this reason, it directly and deliberately opposed to Christianity. As we all know, by opposing something you give it strength, definition, and additional meaning. Since I have no desire to do this, I would also say that I am NOT an atheist.

So, what am I? Somebody who is unwilling to accept the answers he has been given, while also opposing the desire or label of somebody who believes in nothing beyond the purely physical. Why should the Christians (or Hindus, or Taoists, Wiccans, or Satanists) be the sole determiners of what is God, and how he/she/it manifests?


Yes,

and

they aren't

I determine through my self determination

and
believe you do too
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jonnie
Posted 2007-06-10 12:34 PM (#89092 - in reply to #89049)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


Steve,

You are a model agnostic
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jonnie
Posted 2007-06-10 12:35 PM (#89093 - in reply to #89074)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


kulkarnn - 2007-06-10 2:59 PM

Jonnie: You got some unbelievable ( I mean unbelievable in amount or extent) information.


So is that a good thing or a bad thing?
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SCThornley
Posted 2007-06-10 12:43 PM (#89095 - in reply to #89092)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


jonnie - 2007-06-10 12:34 PM

Steve,

You are a model agnostic


My ancestors were Huguenots and fled from the old country to keep from being burned to death

at least in the states where we settled, burning and religious persecution was not popular, unlike..........well.....

Hey, never forget

forgive does not mean forget


and not knowing does not mean it isn't possible.
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jonnie
Posted 2007-06-10 1:29 PM (#89097 - in reply to #89049)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


That was not Christian Europe's finest hour.
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tweeva
Posted 2007-06-10 3:54 PM (#89101 - in reply to #89049)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?



Veteran

Posts: 101
100
Please define "supernatural"
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-06-10 6:05 PM (#89108 - in reply to #89093)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


That is fantastic. And, you can handle it. But, that does not mean I can handle it. For example, I am slow reader that it takes me 10 or more times to read as average English Reader.


jonnie - 2007-06-10 12:35 PM

kulkarnn - 2007-06-10 2:59 PM

Jonnie: You got some unbelievable ( I mean unbelievable in amount or extent) information.


So is that a good thing or a bad thing?
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tweeva
Posted 2007-06-10 6:09 PM (#89110 - in reply to #89076)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?



Veteran

Posts: 101
100
Not that I believe that all this is much importance but anyway:
yummie, nice discussion (or can of worms).

You do realize that there is a contradiction in this, don't you? Belief requires a leap beyond evidence.
Even your statement requires belief: The belief that there is nothing beyond the empirical, phenomenal reality. Can you provide proof to substantiate this belief?

Tw
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ollie
Posted 2007-06-10 6:18 PM (#89111 - in reply to #89110)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


tweeva - 2007-06-10 5:09 PM


Even your statement requires belief: The belief that there is nothing beyond the empirical, phenomenal reality. Can you provide proof to substantiate this belief?



It would be more accurate to say that "I see no evidence of anything beyond or outside of this universe", and "I believe in nothing I don't have good evidence for."

Why do I trust, say, the scientific method? Answer: demonstrable results.

Science has produced good (e. g., established cures for horrible diseases, increased life spans, better health) and evil (atomic weapons, napalm) and things like the internet that I am currently using.

Hence, I see the sceintific method as having produced tangible things; (e. g., that atomic weapons work verifies the models of nuclear physics, even though these weapons are evil).

So, no, I see no contradiction in being strictly secular.
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SCThornley
Posted 2007-06-10 6:32 PM (#89116 - in reply to #89111)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


ollie - 2007-06-10 6:18 PM

tweeva - 2007-06-10 5:09 PM


Even your statement requires belief: The belief that there is nothing beyond the empirical, phenomenal reality. Can you provide proof to substantiate this belief?



It would be more accurate to say that "I see no evidence of anything beyond or outside of this universe", and "I believe in nothing I don't have good evidence for."

Why do I trust, say, the scientific method? Answer: demonstrable results.

Science has produced good (e. g., established cures for horrible diseases, increased life spans, better health) and evil (atomic weapons, napalm) and things like the internet that I am currently using.

Hence, I see the sceintific method as having produced tangible things; (e. g., that atomic weapons work verifies the models of nuclear physics, even though these weapons are evil).

So, no, I see no contradiction in being strictly secular.


but

Tweeva makes a good point

just because you don't see the evidence doesn't mean it's not there


infinity
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ollie
Posted 2007-06-10 10:09 PM (#89126 - in reply to #89116)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


SCThornley - 2007-06-10 5:32 PM


Tweeva makes a good point

just because you don't see the evidence doesn't mean it's not there


infinity


Not at all!

Example: do you believe in Zeus? Appollo? (sp) Rah? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? The great JuJu? Fairies in the bottom of your vase? The Invisible Pink Unicorn? Healing Crystals? Golden plates that can only be decoded by one human wearing special glasses?

Just because you don't see evidence in these things doesn't mean that they are not there!

Do you believe that I can do a perfect one-armed handstand? (no cheating by asking Neel! )

Just because you haven't seen evidence doesn't mean that I can't!

Nope, as far as I am concerned, I believe something only when there is evidence for it. Otherwise, what dictates belief?
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SCThornley
Posted 2007-06-10 10:33 PM (#89129 - in reply to #89126)
Subject: RE: any atheists here?


ollie - 2007-06-10 10:09 PM

SCThornley - 2007-06-10 5:32 PM


Tweeva makes a good point

just because you don't see the evidence doesn't mean it's not there


infinity


Not at all!

Example: do you believe in Zeus? Appollo? (sp) Rah? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? The great JuJu? Fairies in the bottom of your vase? The Invisible Pink Unicorn? Healing Crystals? Golden plates that can only be decoded by one human wearing special glasses?

Just because you don't see evidence in these things doesn't mean that they are not there!

Do you believe that I can do a perfect one-armed handstand? (no cheating by asking Neel! )

Just because you haven't seen evidence doesn't mean that I can't!

Nope, as far as I am concerned, I believe something only when there is evidence for it. Otherwise, what dictates belief?


Reality

and if you look at reality and conclude one thing, while someone else concludes the opposite, then what?

Why?

The concept of infinity is the concept of contemplation that led me to believe in things not seen.

I'm not a big believer in the flying spaghetti monster, or any of the others that have expressed themselves through our human wits and a desire for explanation.

I like not knowing, and still knowing that infinity can be, and in some conceptions is.

I would go so far as to say all human expressions/interpretations of what 'God' or lack thereof is flawed, unsatisfactory to say the least.

In so much as you could prove life is or define what life is, another could see God.

If you look into the combinations of genes, or chemicals and their reactions and see some material or physical action reaction relationship, why would it be any different for someone else to see Divinity in the same thing?

Satisfactory evidence that can be put on trial in you psyche to stand up to your cross examination will not happen unless you hold the trial and seek out the evidence yourself.

The truth does not need to self incriminate itself and will be quite satisfied to remain hidden if you feel satisfied to not seek it out.

But, you may not need it, or want it.

I contend the truth is something more serious than Socrates, Avestan Zarathustra, John the Babtist or any other name you wish to associate the concept of God, and that it is in you and can be described in the same terms that these other 'historical' 'prophets' described it, or you could have your own vocabulary for it, but the concepts are the same.


or

I could be wrong.

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