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| well, first, yoga is a healing discipline--so it's going to attract the people who need the most healing. and btw, it attracted me, so i'm included! 
beyond this, these are their reactions to things based on their expectations and illusions--their maya. it's entirely ok for them to have these reactions, and as a teacher, we can point out that these reactions are illusions. we can also teach to take the ego out of the practice.
and we must remind ourselves that we are not responsible for these reactions and the outcomes of them (gossiping about us, or whatever). sometimes, it's just their ego running into a really stark mirror, and that has nothing to do with us.
i ran into that recently. i met a woman who has been "practicing yoga for three year!" (she said with great pride and egotism) whose downward dog i corrected. she said "but that feels strange!" and i said "yes, sometimes the correct alignment feels strange." (gentle tone, etc). and she stormed out. How dare I tell her that her posture was wrong!
well, she complained to the boss, who asked me to "watch my tone." and i said "ok" and brushed it off. it wasn't my tone (i asked another student about it), it was her ego (the other student was a teacher and has seen this happen before with this student.). so, i could let it go. 
we can allow people to have their egos, you know? we all have our stuff. i can accept that sometimes that stuff is going to come pouring out in my direction.
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| What is meant here by slow? Fast? These are relative terms. And what you think is slow and what the student thinks is slow - may or may not be that far apart?
I know when I say a teacher is too fast - it is because I feel rushed. I think of timing in yoga in terms of breath count. I have been taught that most movements should last a minimum of 5 seconds and should be linked to an inhale or an exhale. In the tradition of Krishnamacharya it is actually encouraged that the breath be as long as possible.
Most people might think of this as slow - but ironically the slower the movement the more strengthening because momentum is removed from the equation.
The "faster" the class the more like aerobics which is not why I go to yoga. I go into a resting pose when I have lost my breath - meaning I can no longer link the breath with the movement.
Clearly not everyone practices the asanas in this manner nor teaches in this manner.
Vic |
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| I'd thought I'd give an update...
I took a flow class this past weekend and a shortened ashtanga class by experienced instructors and both classes were WAY too fast for me. I know that my flow class couldn't have been going at the speed that this woman was claiming since I couldn't even keep up with these average vinyasa classes.
This woman probably never took a typical flow class and was just completely unfamilar with the style. I also teach a gentle yoga, seniors and regular hatha so my flow class is the most vigorous of the bunch.
I'm going to go more slowly even if certain students who like flow will be disappointed (and there are a good number who enjoy flow). Part of my reason for deciding to do this is that flow classes are much more difficult to teach IMO. Why should I put out all that extra effort to create a nice flow class if certain students are just going to get verbally abusive because of it?
If I start working in a studio where there are more experienced and open minded students I might teach a true 'flow' class again, but until then I won't. There are just too many beginners who take flow when they shouldn't in some of these gyms. In a good studio a student will be advised to start with a beginner or regular hatha class before going on to flow classes.
One thing I've noticed is that Americans seem to really love flow classes, but the Asian and Indian students seem to dislike it. This class which hated the flow style had many asian and indian people in it and the woman who got angry at me was a filipina. It is a learning experience!
I want to thank everyone for their great sage advice. I think no matter how many years I teach yoga or trainings I go through I'll always feel like a beginner in some ways. It's challenging!
Edited by shalamOM 2007-06-13 11:16 AM
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| shalamOM - 2007-06-13 11:08 AM
One thing I've noticed is that Americans seem to really love flow classes, but the Asian and Indian students seem to dislike it. This class which hated the flow style had many asian and indian people in it and the woman who got angry at me was a filipina. It is a learning experience!
===> Thanks for telling this. Flow is athletic. And, Americans are more athletic, no doubt. And, the static poses require more focus of mind and relate more to the definition of Yoga than flow. |
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| shalamOM - 2007-06-13 11:08 AM I'm going to go more slowly even if certain students who like flow will be disappointed (and there are a good number who enjoy flow). Part of my reason for deciding to do this is that flow classes are much more difficult to teach IMO. Good for you! Personally, I think the slower a class moves from pose to pose, or rather, the longer the holds of poses between transitions, the harder the class. If you're moving quickly from asana to asana, just "passing through" as it were, are you really practicing yoga? How much mindfulness can there be in a pose that you barely hold for one breath? One thing I meant to ask, and forgive me if you mentioned this but I didn't see it, is what is the level of this flow class that you teach? Mixed? Level 1? I know what you mean about flow classes being more challenging to teach, which is why I opted to teach a level 1 class at the gym where I teach. Teaching poses is one thing. Teaching transitions is another. The pose you transition to isn't the sole goal. The transition must be kept in "asana mode" as well (i.e. maintaining sthira and sukha). Or else, as it has been so aptly put, it just becomes an aerobics class. Glad to hear from you again. |
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| OrangeMat - 2007-06-13 11:39 AM
Good for you! Personally, I think the slower a class moves from pose to pose, or rather, the longer the holds of poses between transitions, the harder the class. If you're moving quickly from asana to asana, just "passing through" as it were, are you really practicing yoga? How much mindfulness can there be in a pose that you barely hold for one breath?
One breath! No, I would never teach a class that fast. Actually, the holds I do in a flow class are about the same as any regular hatha class, about 5-10 breaths at minimum, sometimes much more depending on the asana. However, that is only an estimate because everyone breaths at a different rate. The only part that may seem fast is the 'vinyasa' part (although I guess the whole thing is vinyasa) where we go down in chataranga in one slow long breath and then up in cobra on another long slow breath and then to downward dog, all done slowly. The last part of the class isn't flow, but just restorative postures and slow sitting postures.
One thing I meant to ask, and forgive me if you mentioned this but I didn't see it, is what is the level of this flow class that you teach? Mixed? Level 1? I know what you mean about flow classes being more challenging to teach, which is why I opted to teach a level 1 class at the gym where I teach. Teaching poses is one thing. Teaching transitions is another. The pose you transition to isn't the sole goal. The transition must be kept in "asana mode" as well (i.e. maintaining sthira and sukha). Or else, as it has been so aptly put, it just becomes an aerobics class. Glad to hear from you again.
All the classes I teach are VERY mixed, from advanced students to beginners. I always teach a fairly beginner level class for that reason, but I give 'options' for the more advanced students. The advanced students really enjoy the options, but I can tell that the beginners get irritated when I give options because they are unable to take it. I always make sure to say that it is just an option and not to take it if it doesn't 'feel' right to you, but they still get irritated.
In my flow classes I focus on alignment and transitions more than in a typical flow class because I don't feel comfortable leaving those things out. The fact of the matter is that beginners really shouldn't take true flow classes. It's not that flow classes are advanced...Some people never like flow. It's just that there needs to be a certain level of fitness and familiarity with the positions. When I've gotten out of shape going right into a flow class is just asking for problems.
One thing I'm realizing at this location is that many people take yoga classes instead of other forms of exercise offered because they expect it to be 'easier'. They specifically take yoga because they don't want to be challenged very much. Of course this isn't true for everyone, but I have noticed this trend. I think when people have an expectation that they won't be challenged they will get irritated if the yoga class doesn't prove to be 'easy' for them. Irritation is okay. Aggression and nastiness is not!
Edited by shalamOM 2007-06-13 1:02 PM
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| actually, flow can be quite good at focusing the mind, if one is taking each moment individually, adn the micromoments in those moments individually--striving to be present. so many people take flow as being "pose-pose-pose" rather than recognizing that it's pose, transition, transition transition transition pose transition transition transition transition. in fact, postures are only held for a moment or less than a moment in vinyasa, and the transitions are poses in and of themselves. the transitions are important.
following the ida of xeno's paradox--you can cut up the transitions a zillion times and ultimately the whole thing is simply the breath and movement and nothing else. no poses, no transitions, just breathing. it's pretty cool.
but, i completely agree that most flow classes aren't this and that many people need non-flow classes to learn the alignment of the postures first, then the alignment of transitions, and then they can get into vinyasa. |
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| just some ideas about flow vs. static..
I can see how logic would say, first learn the alignment and then take a flow, but I've found that new students aren't really ready to do full posture and the pace of the flow class is nice because they don't spend too long in a posture. I don't know any 1st timeres who walked into a yoga studio and did warrior I with their thigh horizontal. So, why should they spend an extended period of time as a newbie trying something that more than likely isn't possible today.
As their practice develops, they start to refine the posture with better alignment. Thus, they end up progressing with the pace of their knowledge. As they get stronger, they make adjustments to posture and alignment improves.
You can give tons of verbal cues and suggestions on alignment, props, etc, but that doesn't convince your body. Your body still has the ultimate say here.
Let's not forget about the role of vinyasa. Fitness, counterposing, expression of prana. Also, some postures are best entered with inhale and some are best entered from exhale, Vinyasas set this concept up nicely.
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| Looks like this is turning into a flow vs. non-flow thread.
Well I personally think flow is much more difficult because going faster has always been challengng for me. I have pretty good natural strength and flexibility, but my cardiovascular ability is always lagging behind. Some might say that vinyasa flows aren't cardiovascular, but they feel like it to me when I'm not in shape.
I almost always prefer stillness. I'm not a type A person. I've always liked to do things well and slowly. Even in pre-school when all the kids were rushing through things, I would go slowly even if I were the last one finished. Flow classes are challenging for me because of the movement. They take me out of my comfort zone. |
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| i think that stillness is within, and exists in both flow and non-flow classes. it's more of a mind thing than a what-the-body's-doing thing. similarly, "flow" exists in both kinds of classes too.
and i'll assert this. i've been practicing yoga since i was a baby. i still don't have a thigh parallel in warrior I or II. these--and most--postures are heavily modified for me and for most of my students. i look for the correct energetic alignment of the pose that leads to the right 'flow of energy' through the body, which in turn allows the body to open slowly and gracefully.
so, when i say that 'flow' exists in both classes, i'm talking about that flow of energy through the body--and through everything. even when sitting, standing, or whatever with complete physical stillness, there is still flow of energy, flow of breath, flow of blood, flow of nerve supply, and i also usually assert that ethereal construct of the 'flow of life' or the 'flow of the universe.'
i like both static and flow styles of practice--both have their benefits and their drawbacks from a teaching and practicing perspective. this is why my students quote good old forrest gump about my classes--her classes are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get! it may start out vinyasa and become an iyengar class (that is, more like practicum than a practice--where we study a pose in depth). it may start off like an iyengar class and become astanga. i never know what's giong to happen either--i just respond to the people in front of me, what i see/feel their bodies/energybodies/minds/spirits needing in that moment.
this is why i asked the various places to just call my classes "yoga" for now. because, well, that's what it is. |
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Expert Yogi
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| Eric - I don't know a lot about vinyasa, but here is my take on doing something "incorrectly" (or with inappropriate alignment or whatever term you prefer) briefly but many times can still cause injuries and can be very, very hard to correct. Our ballroom teachers are currently trying to help us "unlearn" some ingrained patterns of movement and it is turning out to be quite a lucrative business for them!  Yes, a good deal of this instruction is refinement and improving on our dancing, but a great deal of it is just fixing up old patterns that were not doing our bodies any good.
Oh, and Iyengar does "flow." We flow from tadasana to trikonasana to tadasana, to vira II to tadasana etc.  |
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| Flow Yoga does not need to be fast at all.
When I began studying Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga, the 'official version' then was to hold each asana for 12 breaths (each side) with a full vinyasa between asana and a half vinyasa between sides. This led to a long, slow and challenging primary series. This is flow.
The American invention of flow Yoga evolved from Ashtanga and really has more to do with sport than Yoga now.
Jonathon
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| i've always seen it that way, too, tourist. that is, one can 'flow' from one position to another while holding each position. that's why i could never figure out why this one studio owner, who wanted a flow class at that time slot, was so frustrated with my flows. i would do most of the flows either from tadasana or from whatever the previous posture was (particularly for floor work--and for reclining floor work i would work from savasana).
she wanted everything to be from chatu., up dog, down dog. but, the students that i kept getting couldn't do those poses properly (with correct alginment/modifications) and they would get repetitive motion injuries if i insisted that they keep doing it wrong just to 'keep the flow going.'
i explained that vinyasa is bigger than astanga, that we were doing vinyasa, even though it would be something like--mountain, triangle, mountain, warrior 2, mountain, side angle. she didn't agree. we parted ways.
anywat, to me--'still' or 'vinyasa'--it all flows. as long as your sequencing is good.
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| IMHO, this point is extremely important to be noted and also practiced.
jonnie - 2007-06-14 10:26 AM
Flow Yoga does not need to be fast at all.
When I began studying Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga, the 'official version' then was to hold each asana for 12 breaths (each side) with a full vinyasa between asana and a half vinyasa between sides. This led to a long, slow and challenging primary series. This is flow.
The American invention of flow Yoga evolved from Ashtanga and really has more to do with sport than Yoga now.
Jonathon
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| Nice Johnnie - my biggest grump with flow classes is that the transition is done so quickly. Done with a full 5 seconds for the exhale and then 5 seconds inhale - makes it about strength and takes the aerobics out of it. I also find the hold for the poses to be frustrating - if you get full 5 breaths it's a blessing. 12 breaths at ten seconds a breath would be fantastic.
Slowing down just doesn't seem acceptable to most people.
Vic |
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| Hi Vic,
This is exactly why I believe that a flow style practise is best suited for individual self practise and not really ideal for a group setting.
Everyone breaths at different rates and true flow movements should be enveloped by the breath. In a group/class setting the student is usually following the teacher's pace and not their own breath.
This is why the ultimate expression of Ashtanga Vinyasa is Mysore style or self practise at the student's pace.
I believe that in a class setting Zoe's expression of flow Yoga is much more appropriate.
Jonathon
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| The class I'm currently teaching is at a gym, and is a beginner-friendly alignment-based vinyasa class (whatever that means). So I try to keep to the definition of what that means to me and still not rock the boat with what the members of the gym attending my class expect (i.e. to sweat and move, but it's "easier" so as to enable beginners). For instance, foir my between-sides half vinyasas, I cue only knees, chest & chin instead of chaturanga, and baby cobra instead of upward facing dog, since these poses are more accessible to the majority of the population. But as we all know, even these poses can be taken to an "advanced" level, with the proper mindfulness during each moment of transition. But I don't bother telling them that. When I first offer this half-vinyasa, I teach it to the students as if they never learned it before, as part of the classic surya namaskar, partly because I must assume some may not know it, and partly because it is part of the learning of my class (bigger part, actually). I guide the breathing and movement pacing when it's first introduced, probably at a 5 second rate per inhale and exhale, if I were pressed to time it. But when I offer it subsequently, between sides, it is to be practiced at each student's pace, following their own breath, not that of the class, and I specifically say so. I even tell them the option of remaining in downward facing dog (or even resting in child's pose and sitting that vinyasa out whenever appropriate) is always there, and that we should all "meet together" at downward facing dog "when we're ready." Then the synchronization of breath and movement within the class as a whole resumes. Best of both worlds, I suppose. So is what I teach considered flow? I don't know. Personally, I hadn't bothered to be think about (until this thread came along, that is ). My sequences follow the rules of vinyasa krama (i.e. make sense to the body as they are executed), and that's good enough for me. I throw in the vinyasas because they are expected, I guess, to build heat between the more strength-based poses, if I had to examine what's going on exercise-wise. But it's yoga, and not purely exercise, so that's beside the point here. |
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| Lets say that someone does a certain routine everyday, the same thing everyday. If I take longer during a class, that means that I was breathing slower, since i count my breaths, and that I was more aware and generally had a better practice, right? So does this mean that the slower your routine goes, the better? Should I make goals to take longer and longer each session?
Thanks!!! |
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| Julian Figiel - 2010-07-25 6:52 AM
Lets say that someone does a certain routine everyday, the same thing everyday. If I take longer during a class, that means that I was breathing slower, since i count my breaths, and that I was more aware and generally had a better practice, right? So does this mean that the slower your routine goes, the better? Should I make goals to take longer and longer each session?
Thanks!!!
A primary goal is to be more aware while you are doing your poses; aware of your mind, aware of your breath, aware of your bones, joints, muscles, tendons, ligaments and aware of your emotional state. This awareness will help your alignment, help you learn exactly how deeply to go into a pose on that particular day, allow you to see where you have improved as well as where you need further refinement, increase your self knowledge etc etc. Whether that session takes a long time or a short time is immaterial. The main thing is the quality of the process, not how long it takes.
It is better to practice a short time with focus than to practice a long time without focus. Whatever we do, we are strengthening some neural pathways and weakening others. If we do a pose slightly wrong, we are strengthening our ability to do that pose wrong and making it more difficult to unlearn that "wrong" action. Therefore, it is extremely important to make sure that you are doing everything as "right" as you can. To do this you need awareness so that you are aware of what you are doing and what actions you are strengthening and what actions you are making weaker.
Follow the Law of Goldilocks: not too much, not too little, but just right!
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| Hello Jullian,
I tend not to get back in to three year-old threads but since it's been cracked open...the genie is out of the bottle I suppose.
In your text I believe there are some assumptions which may or may not hold, no pun intended. Rather than get into exactly what a longer practice may mean as it relates to the breath (for you) I'll head a slightly different direction, if you don't mind.
If your intentions for the physical practice are realized as a result of the way in which you are practicing, that's lovely. If you are having the effect in your physical body that you are seeking AND that effect is the result of your longer practice, slower breath, more awareness...then it could be termed a "better practice for you" (though not for all).
The vastness of Yoga allows it to be utilized in many different ways. Some of those ways are sound, some are not. Is it a "good" Yoga practice to do only a physical practice or is that asana? Is it a good Yoga practice to recite the Yoga Sutras or should they be lived? Is it a good yoga practice to rationalize and intellectualize all that is done or should there be a sense of feeling which softens the intellect? Does the student who only views asana as muscle synergies rob themselves of the richness of the practice throughout the other layers of existence?
Generally speaking, the duration of the practice isn't noteworthy. It may BE noted and this would be especially true for beginners, but it is not terribly relevant. I personally find that there is more opportunity for me to feel in a slower practice. And for me the practice is about more feeling, which for this post I'll loosely equate with awareness. However, this doesn't mean my practice is only made up of profoundly slow movement. Having some contrast in the practice is often very helpful for the process of discernment.
Edited by purnayoga 2010-07-25 1:07 PM
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Extreme Veteran
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| Just break down the class and make it slower. Mention to people to keep going slower. If they get irritated or enjoy anything ask them look within and ask "why". Make it more interesting for them. teach them that when you learn to go so slowly you can also learn about yourself and can learn too to go faster than ever before. Most people may find it diificult at first but make it easier and easier. Then they will progress more through better understanding.Have fun! |
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Should I slow down a class?
