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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
 
| Im shocked jimg and Kristi. I will have to think long about what you tell me to digest it. If this is true that yoga teachers beleive its good to reinforce will power and that will power is essential for yoga, I no longer want to practice it.
Where there is will power, there is no skill. Some of the most unpopular people in the world,such as Napoleon and Hitler used will power. The more will power involved in anything (not just yoga asana or meditation,pranayama etc) the less sensitive we are. The more will power we use, we become less aware of unnecessary effort.
If you use will power say to life a really heavy piano or something, if a bird flys above and does a poo on your head you will not be aware of it. If you are doing something that does not require will (lifting a piece of paper) you will be aware of the poo hitting your head (yuck).
The less will power we use, the more sensitive we become. Most people, I find have a sense of effort at 2 extremes and not graded.
This will thus reduce many of the benefits we can receive from yoga.
In a similar way a peaceful kung fu master will use skill, not using unnecessary effort with will power to defeat his opponent.
I am truly surprised by what you say!
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Also it takes no will power to do yoga without force. |
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Veteran
Posts: 258
| vibe
It depends on what each one of us has in mind when speaking about “will power” and how he uses the term. We would first have to agree on the meaning of the term. “will power”.
To me will power means: to have inside you the necessary force to do what you want to do.
Will power itself is neither negative nor positive. It is what-you –want-to-do (your goal/your wish) that can be either positive or negative and not the force that makes you able to do it.
There can be will/wish to conquer the world, but there can also be will/wish to get out of bed and practice your musical instrument or go to your job to make a living, or practice the asanas, or go out there and help other people that might need help.
In aaaall of these cases it is will power that is needed as a force inside you. And in yoga also! And in all it's brunces. You certainly need will power to do, let's say, the standing poses. But you also need will power to do carma yoga.
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| vibe,
I agree with kristi. I think that we may have a serious difference in out definitions of "will power". To me, will power is choosing one action over another and staying focused on that action/choice (mental, physical, spiritual etc) until a predetermined point. If you decide to do yoga without force (i.e. strain), that is will power. You can use force and will power together, but they do not necessarily always go together. Will power is the focus on a particular intention to do, or not to do, something. Will power is neither good nor bad, but a necessary ingredient to every choice or action that we do. Not choosing is also a choice that requires will power. The object of the will power can be good or bad. (Good and bad are total cultural constructs and are relative to a time, a place and a particular paradigm, individual or group.)
Force is often strain or violence, but not necessarily. Force is required to stand, but strain is not. Unnecessary tension is also not needed, but without a certain amount of muscle tension, you cannot move.
Will power and a certain amount of force are needed to perform any asana, but strain is seldom useful and violence is never desirable. Force, strain and violence are all necessary ingredients to life at times. When a virus attacks your body, you better hope that your immune system attacks that virus violently, eliminates it and takes no prisoners. Is your immune system seperate from you?
Violence is part of us and is an unavoidable part of life. Birth and death are both often violent. The fight or flight response is a necessary natural response. The problem is not that we respond with violence when our lives depend on it, but rather that we respond with violence when our thoughts, beliefs, or self-images are felt to be threatened, out of greed, or when we are dealing with memories and prejudices, and not actual present physical danger. Although non-violence does not and cannot actually exist (you can't even have the word non-violence without violence), we really could do a much better job of limiting our violence, as we are unnecessarily violent to ourselves, others, and the planet.
Consciousness must always have an object of focus, whether that object of focus is real or imagined, internal or external. Focus is will power. By developing your will power, you are developing your ability to focus.
You cannot develop skill without will power (focus). Whether Beethoven, Michelangelo or the Kung Fu master, will power is necessary to develop the skills needed to do something that appears effortless.
Jim
Edited by jimg 2009-10-13 3:33 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Thanks for your thoughtful replies. However, what you say is simply untrue. If you study neurology, you may understand. You cannot develop skill with will. The brain (the controller of our muscles) does not work like that. I never said will power is negative. Infact there isnt a negative word in the dictionary. Its how we use words. Yoga is a science not a magical mystery tour. I can give so many examples (if you wish). However, maybe you should digest what I wrote above then come back to me when you are ready...I do appreciate your insights though. In school we are told to try and work harder. When nothing in school is hard. We should learn how to learn and all in school becomes easy. Its the same with yoga. Will power just numbs our sensitivity. |
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| we are truly in the presence of a great and ascended master |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
  
| It's taking all the power of my will, or willpower, if you will, to not   at dhan. |
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| vibes - 2009-10-13 2:27 PM
You cannot develop skill with will.
Sensitivity (awareness) is also a skill! Skills are acquired by first setting an intention, then acting on that intention in a repetitive and consequent manner until the brain is re-wired and the body re-built with the needed attributes to perform that skill. Once your performance of this skill is internalized and therefore becomes natural, it is, or at least appears to be, easy. This takes a lot of will power; just like a child learning to walk. You can work hard (with strain and tension) or you can work easy (with relaxation and focus) to achieve this, but it is still will power. Whether you are directing this process or letting it happen in a random haphazard way or some combination, it is still conscious or unconscious will power.
If you want, you can convince yourself that you are acting without will because you are at one with the cosmos and egoless. Unfortunately, that is an even greater ego/will position as you are only projecting your ego/will on the entire cosmos and are only sensitive to your ego and not that actual whole person that you are or the actual environment that you live in and exchange your body with with every breath.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| A child learning to walk with will power gets increasingly frustrated.In people with Parkinson's Disease or MS its in fact dangerous as the will power numbs their sensitivity.Or with some men who suffer with premature ejaculation (a big problem in the west), if they make love with will power,they will continue to suffer.However if they learn to become more gentle and listen to sensations,they will improve and make the partners happier too!
If you are lifting up a piano or something of similar weight with will power, you will not notice a bird flying overhead and pooping on your head. If you lift a leaf (does not require will power) you will notice the pooping by the bird on your head. Try it-If you dont want to wait for a bird, when lifting something the extreme weight of a piano get someone to drop something light on your head. Then lift a leaf with someone dropping the same light thing on your head. Notice with which weight you are more aware of the light thing dropping on your head. It is not rocket science but common sense. I cant believe I am still writting about this thread. But thanks to Kristi for originally asking a very good question (although she didnt think so at the time) here a few years back.
Jimg-can you explain what you mean by 'projecting your ego/will on the entire cosmos and are only sensitive to your ego and not that actual whole person that you are or the actual environment that you live in and exchange your body with your breath'. What has this got to do with tadasana or any of whats written above? How do you do that? You have mysticall powers to reach the cosmos? |
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| vibes,
I am really not at all sure of what point, if any, that you are trying to make. Maybe I just need to do the bird pooping experiment and all will be revealed. Maybe you have done the bird pooping experiment one time too many.
jimg
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| i think i would probably notice if a bird pooped on my head if i was lifting a piano.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| bird pooping to the outer cosmos maybe? |
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| you're straight trippin, boo |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Incase a few of you guys still are confused by the above posts- there is an enormous difference between will power, putting your heart into something and skill. In the meantime try lift that piano (its damn heavy) you wont notice a fly landing on you or a bird poop on you, even if you try hard to be more sensitive. In other words try to gently massage someone with a very light,gentle delicate touch while lifting a piano. So many more examples.That should hopefuly do the job though.However, you may notice you are floating in the outer cosmos as gravity is different which means the piano shouldnt be so heavy. |
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Member
Posts: 40
| Interesting debate that was mentioned: feeling natural or enduring poses until they begin to feel "right?" My inclination is to say that it should feel natural: yoga doesn't make room for pain, gain, and all that other more traditional exercise lingo. How, I personally love ashtanga yoga because it does push me to new limits. And reaching new heights either each practic or over time gives me pure joy. In my case, feeling natural isn't part of my practice; feeling strong, clear, and in control is. I think it's most important to decide what you want out of yoga first, before trying to fit into a mold of sorts.
Good luck! |
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New User
Posts: 2
| Perhaps finding stability in what seems unstable well help one become more stable all around. |
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tadasana
