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| I was having a conversation with a yoga instructor (she teaches no one particular style) and she informed me that she had been reading about Iyengar and that recently some certified senior Iyengar instructors had decided to no longer teach in that style and were doing something else. She didn't elaborate and I didn't want to get into it at the time, so I didn't ask. But I am curious- is there such a trend? If so, what are the reasons? I realize the question is a little vague but I wondered why this might be.
Or, more generally, what are some criticisms of Iyengar yoga? |
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Expert Yogi
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| karmann - well, I don't know specifics but I do know for example, that some very senior teachers disagree with the entire certification system, some possibly feel that the syllabus system (tied into certification) is limiting and they want to branch out a bit more into some areas (chakras, meditation - I am only guessing here) that are not as deeply covered in Iyengar. Some may feel they wish to be trail blazers and bring something new and perhaps better to yoga. I do know that of the people I have met who study under such teachers, the foundation and core of their work is absolutely, 100% the work of BKS Iyengar. I have seen non-Iyengar students who look pretty much at home in an Iyengar studio 
But let me also say that this is not a mass exodus. I know my senior teachers, most of whom have been Iyengar students since the 70's, feel that they have come nowhere close to the farthest depths of the well of learning they can achieve studying his method.  |
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| tourist - 2007-05-25 6:56 PM
karmann - well, I don't know specifics but I do know for example, that some very senior teachers disagree with the entire certification system, some possibly feel that the syllabus system (tied into certification ) is limiting and they want to branch out a bit more into some areas (chakras, meditation - I am only guessing here ) that are not as deeply covered in Iyengar.
===> I thought the original question was about Already Certified Senior Teachers. The problem they are going to have is: NO DOUBT, each student who was attracted to Iyengar System of Yoga Exercise and especially, those who are Senior Today, was due to the amount of perfection displayed by BKS himself in Yoga Pose, as compared their own pose or they saw elsewhere. Now, when they go to Chakras and Meditation, they can not get a similar display, as those subjects are more subtle to be observed from outside. (I am only making a comment here, not comparing. ) May be that is one reason why Iyengar System of exercise in the first place does not go into deep in the aspects other than Assana Exercises.
Some may feel they wish to be trail blazers and bring something new and perhaps better to yoga.
===> NO = Of course. Better = That depends on the goal. In the world of asana exercise practice, not much, I suppose.
I do know that of the people I have met who study under such teachers, the foundation and core of their work is absolutely, 100% the work of BKS Iyengar. I have seen non-Iyengar students who look pretty much at home in an Iyengar studio
===> This is true as far as Asana Exercise is concerned, not otherwise.
But let me also say that this is not a mass exodus. I know my senior teachers, most of whom have been Iyengar students since the 70's, feel that they have come nowhere close to the farthest depths of the well of learning they can achieve studying his method.
====> This also is true as far as Asana Exercise is concerned. Also, it is at least partially due to shifting focus of evaluating perfection of exercise poses. What I mean is they never feel they achieved it as the expectation is changing with the time.
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Expert Yogi
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| kulkarnn - 2007-05-25 9:21 PM
===> I thought the original question was about Already Certified Senior Teachers. The problem they are going to have is: NO DOUBT, each student who was attracted to Iyengar System of Yoga Exercise and especially, those who are Senior Today, was due to the amount of perfection displayed by BKS himself in Yoga Pose, as compared their own pose or they saw elsewhere. Now, when they go to Chakras and Meditation, they can not get a similar display, as those subjects are more subtle to be observed from outside. (I am only making a comment here, not comparing.) May be that is one reason why Iyengar System of exercise in the first place does not go into deep in the aspects other than Assana Exercises.
I should clarify. We have no restrictions on what we can personally practice. But I believe some senior certified teachers find they wish to move (for example and again, I am only guessing) to teach things that are not on our syllabi. We discuss and study the chakras, for example, but as far as I know there is no syllabus that includes teaching the popular "chakra meditations." Someone wishing to *teach* that would be going against the wishes and instructions of BKS and therefore would be ethically obliged to no longer bill themselves as an Iyengar teacher.
Some may feel they wish to be trail blazers and bring something new and perhaps better to yoga.
===> NO = Of course. Better = That depends on the goal. In the world of asana exercise practice, not much, I suppose.
We absolutely agree on this Neel.
I do know that of the people I have met who study under such teachers, the foundation and core of their work is absolutely, 100% the work of BKS Iyengar. I have seen non-Iyengar students who look pretty much at home in an Iyengar studio
===> This is true as far as Asana Exercise is concerned, not otherwise.
This is all I am qualified to evaluate so yes, you are right.
But let me also say that this is not a mass exodus. I know my senior teachers, most of whom have been Iyengar students since the 70's, feel that they have come nowhere close to the farthest depths of the well of learning they can achieve studying his method.
====> This also is true as far as Asana Exercise is concerned. Also, it is at least partially due to shifting focus of evaluating perfection of exercise poses. What I mean is they never feel they achieved it as the expectation is changing with the time.
I will disagree on this one. While newer teachers come back from Pune with a great deal of information about asana and improvements in their individual practices, those who have been Iyengar students for decades have quite a different learning. I think perhaps it is not possible to practice any style of asana and pranayama diligently and mindfully for 20 or 30 years and not come closer to the deeper aspects of yoga. And certainly, those teachers who are older are no longer looking toward "perfection" in poses, though it may appear to our eyes that they are. |
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I should clarify. We have no restrictions on what we can personally practice. But I believe some senior certified teachers find they wish to move (for example and again, I am only guessing) to teach things that are not on our syllabi. We discuss and study the chakras, for example, but as far as I know there is no syllabus that includes teaching the popular "chakra meditations." Someone wishing to *teach* that would be going against the wishes and instructions of BKS and therefore would be ethically obliged to no longer bill themselves as an Iyengar teacher.
===> Actually, I concur with you. But, the problem I see is that they wish to be called as Iyengar Teacher, rather than a Yoga Teacher who previously studied with Iyengar. And, I accept that if they wish to call themselves as Iyengar teacher, they must follow the rules of the xxxx. In that respect, I also agree with respected Bikram Choudhary, that if someone wants to use his name, they should follow Hot Room even if it is unhealthy and then only follow the Healthy Exercise set which he has skillfully prepared from his exceptional background.
I will disagree on this one. While newer teachers come back from Pune with a great deal of information about asana and improvements in their individual practices, those who have been Iyengar students for decades have quite a different learning. I think perhaps it is not possible to practice any style of asana and pranayama diligently and mindfully for 20 or 30 years and not come closer to the deeper aspects of yoga. And certainly, those teachers who are older are no longer looking toward "perfection" in poses, though it may appear to our eyes that they are.
===> I agree partially that some of them may not be looking for perfection in poses themselves, they are looking for perfection in something. And, that something definitely has LOT (actually almost max) to do with the way of doing Asana exercise. And, yes, doing asana and pranayama deligently for 20 years shall lead one to deeper aspects of Yoga. But, that shall happen in that field only. And, if they come to know other fields, as you said, they can not do that if they want to carry the banner of Name. And, if they want to practice the other things they come to know, they have to leave the banner. And, that is the main reason they are leaving the banner, if the original statement is true.
Love and Peace
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Expert Yogi
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| You are right, Neel. If they leave, they need to leave the name behind, though I am always pleased to see former students honouring their teacher, no matter whether they still study with him or not.
As I think I have mentioned, many of my teachers studied extensively with Swami Sivananda Radha before hearing about Iyengar. So most of them do mantra chanting and some other rites prescribed by her. These are not taught in our asana and pranayama classes, but they still inform their understanding of yoga and we are encouraged to look to Swami Radha's and other teachers work for that kind of learning if we desire it. BKS Iyengar and Swami Radha met in 1984 and the teacher who hosted them said they took to each other instantly and spoke for hours and hours without stopping at all. They each admired the other's work and philosophy very much |
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| tourist - 2007-05-26 3:59 PM
You are right, Neel. If they leave, they need to leave the name behind, though I am always pleased to see former students honouring their teacher, no matter whether they still study with him or not.
===> Thanks very much. And, therefore, in my Teacher Training, as a part of syllabus, I mention to my TTs that 'They can call their style whatever they want after completion of TT course'. 'They can teach whatever they want after completion of my TT course'. The only thing I am expecting from them is: "Do not quote me on a subject I did not teach them". Do you think that is a resonable expectation?
As I think I have mentioned, many of my teachers studied extensively with Swami Sivananda Radha before hearing about Iyengar. So most of them do mantra chanting and some other rites prescribed by her. These are not taught in our asana and pranayama classes, but they still inform their understanding of yoga and we are encouraged to look to Swami Radha's and other teachers work for that kind of learning if we desire it. BKS Iyengar and Swami Radha met in 1984 and the teacher who hosted them said they took to each other instantly and spoke for hours and hours without stopping at all. They each admired the other's work and philosophy very much
===> I am sure that those who went to Iyengar after Swami Radha, etc. went due to the proper alignment etc , that is for learning better way to do Asana exercise.
===> Yes, I know that Guruji has many people such as Pope of Vatican, Swami Shivananda himself, Swami Vishnu, Swami Radha, and many others. But, he has not incorporated their elements in his style, and I am not disrespecting that. I am only mentioning it.
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Expert Yogi
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| I think it is totally reasonable that they teach what you have taught. This is what I have been led to believe is the correct and traditional way to pass on teachings. Even the TM (Transcendental Meditation) system is very clear that the teachings must be passed on as they are taught because it is the traditional way. If your trainees add in other elements, they should be very clear that it is not part of your system.
I think Swami Radha and Guruji felt that their systems were very complimentary to each other. Her asana classes focus on the deeper meanings of the poses (the classes are called "Hidden Language") and there is a lot of reflection and symbol interpretation involved in the classes. A very interesting approach that blends well with good alignment and self-study as taught by Mr. Iyengar. |
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| the "Iyengar System" is so deep and broad. it has therapeutics, from the most beginning level to most advanced, asana, pranayama, all the 8 limbs, philosophy, vinyasa. within a framework there is MUCH freedom and diversity and difference in approach. geeta & prashant both come to Iyengar yoga but, seemingly from different ends of the same spectrum.
it is true that long time practitioners certainly go deeper and deeper and it is about MUCH more than what is on a 'syllabus.' it is an authentic approach to the path of yoga. |
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| I am interested in these questions. As to "what are the criticisms of Iyengar yoga?" - a yoga teacher I know (& like actually) found Iyengar classes boring. Too much detail. Not enough sweat & movement. I thought maybe he had never been to a class which challenged him.... But I think his criticism must be widely felt, because there certainly are a lot of Vinyasa & Power Yoga studios in my area! And often the teachers in these studios don't have the kind of intelligence relating to structure & alignment & the individuality of practitioners that the Iyengar teachers have.
As far as Iyengar teachers leaving the system, or branching out, who do we know that falls into that category? Victor van Kooten & Angela Farmer, Rodney Yee, those are the ones I know of - & also I have heard that Dona Holleman goes beyond Iyengar in her teaching of working with an extremely straight spine. It would be interesting to know of others. Would John Friend also fall into this category? He certainly took a lot from Iyengar. When I tried Anusara classes, I didn't like them though; I felt it was diluted & too easy. It just may have been the particular teachers.
I think there is a larger trend, not to leave Iyengar work behind, but to incorporate the tremendous knowledge of proper alignment - which so nurtures the body & spirit - into the "vinyasa flow" fad. So - stream poses together, use a little music, challenge the muscles - but keep good alignment while doing it. |
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| Some additional famous yoga teachers who studied with Iyengar before moving on include:
Beryl Bender Birch
Judith Lasater
Ganga White
Seane Corn
Erich Schiffmann
Although there are many criticisms of the Iyengar approach and his teaching style, he has had a major impact on most yoga styles practiced in the West. Although the details of his alignment principles are disputed by many, he was instrumental in getting people to start thinking about alignment in the first place.
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| Sati Suloshana - 2009-05-04 5:53 PM
As to "what are the criticisms of Iyengar yoga?" - a yoga teacher I know (& like actually) found Iyengar classes boring. Too much detail. Not enough sweat & movement.
So - stream poses together, use a little music, challenge the muscles - but keep good alignment while doing it.
i can understand how one could find it boring, but i myself have never found it boring.
perhaps flow yoga appeals better to people's sense of what a workout is. they're sweating, getting some cardio, yeah?
iyengar yoga steps far outside of the traditional paradigm of 'working out.' in my mind it is entirely therapeutic, almost like practicing physical therapy.
additionally, with most iyengar classes being populated by an older section of the population, teachers will be less likely to push it.
who has the patience to trudge through three years of classes before getting to the fancy stuff in a level 2-3 class.
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the problem with streaming poses together and keeping good alignment is that you lose alignment in the process.
it is unavoidable.
i bet even the most seasoned and reputable vinyasa teacher would admit to that.
some people can deal with that.
i find that working precision alignment is ultimately more challenging to the muscles and vinyasa wears the joints more.
but my body was pretty screwed up when i was doing vinyasa, so....
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so if a teacher is a devoted practitioner of iyengar yoga for 15-20 years
(lets say 2-3 hours practice a day)
and after 20 years, they decided to branch off on their own...
how did they get to where they are?
can the work and influence of bks iyengar on the theory and practice of modern asana be overstated?
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| Personally, I view yoga asana practice like music. Vinyasa is like the melody, but until you have learnt the individual notes, you cannot properly play the melody. Once you have mastered the sounds, you can make music.
Notes without melody (direction) are random sound. Melody without basic mastery is noise.
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| Sati Suloshana - 2009-05-04 3:53 PM
I think there is a larger trend, not to leave Iyengar work behind, but to incorporate the tremendous knowledge of proper alignment - which so nurtures the body & spirit - into the "vinyasa flow" fad. So - stream poses together, use a little music, challenge the muscles - but keep good alignment while doing it.
To call "vinyasa flow" a "fad" is misleading. The first thing you do when born is breathe and move. People have been breathing and moving with awareness since the beginnings of consciousness, it is NOT a "fad."
Good alignment is critical, but without movement and breathing, it is out of context. For the alignment to be truely beneficial, it must be learned in context. This is not to say that isolating a pose and working on the details of alignment is not beneficial. It is very beneficial, but as a building block of a greater context.
Back to the music example, you need to practice scales to better play music, not to get really good at playing scales. |
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Veteran
Posts: 243
| My general criticism of Iyengar is the relentless use of props-2 belts, 1 bolster, 4 blocks, a chair and a mat intricately folded just to get into one posture! And then all over again for the next one. I get the idea, but can't help feeling that the body itself should be enough for the postures even if the body isn't ready for full expression. In ashtanga you can put your hand on your shin in triangle (for example) if your hand can't reach the floor, and that seems to me to be a simpler way to approach alignment.
(by the way, being mostly on the bikram forum, I can't tell you how happy I am to be here doing some iyengar bashing!  )
Edited by yoga-addict 2009-05-07 11:09 AM
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| perhaps there are ideas you have yet to get?
it takes a minute to get used to the props, yes.
they can be cumbersome, especially if you are used to a faster paced asana practice.
all of that shuffling around could even be considered boring.
the use of props, though, is one of the greatest strengths of iyengar yoga.
it is a means to study asana, rather than just 'do' it.
having the right props (and knowing how to use them) can take you to places in your body you might otherwise never visit.
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and then of course, you take the information you have learned through the prop
and bring it into the classic unsupported pose
and do it way better.
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or perhaps you like the support to help you hold your poses way longer.
five minutes in warrior 2?
just take your hands back onto a ledge or a chairseat.
i could go on and on about the power of props,
but thats probably more boring than an iyengar class, yeah?
...
of course if iyengar yoga is not your cup of tea, by all means do something else.
but just remember that it's there for you if/when you need it. |
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| I think that one of the problems with Iyengar classes is that they are structured more as a supplement to a home practice than other way around. Since many yoga practitioners only do class and do not have a home practice, they end up missing a lot. If you work on the details in class, you have learned skills to apply to your home practice where you can focus more on the whole. This is the opposite of Bikram or Power yoga or whatever where you work at home on the details to do better in class.
This is not "right" or "wrong" but rather two different approaches. The bottom line is whether or not it is working for you.
Edited by jimg 2009-05-07 3:16 PM
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Expert Yogi
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| People new to props are often under the misunderstanding that props are to help people who aren't "able" to get into the pose. So I can see the problem - if I can reach my shin, why are you making me stack up two blocks to be the same height as my shin? My shin is already there! Sounds perfectly nuts, doesn't it?
But - the blocks are not just there as a shin substitute. They are there, for example in uttanasana, as a floor substitute. Someone with their hands on their shins will never understand what it is like to have their hands on the floor. The block is firm and solid like the floor and it has a way of "pushing back" in a way a shin just doesn't. Can you learn a lot about uttanasana with your hands on your shins? You bet! But the block will teach you something different. And if you put a block between your thighs and wrap a belt around them, you will learn something else. And if you put a long belt on as a "shoulder jacket" at the same time, you will learn a heck of a lot! (OK, I think my class tonight should be afraid.....  )
BKS Iyengar does, I am told, 40 minutes of urdhva dhanurasana over a tall bench. It is not because he cannot do urdhva dhanurasana without the bench. In fact, he can probably 40 minutes without the bench but he no longer has those sorts of things to prove to the outside world. The bench allows him to access things that he could not access otherwise. The support allows him perhaps to look more deeply at the breath, to understand the opening of the chest and work on keeping his sternum open and not "dry out" which he assures us it does in old age.
And as the last poster said (jim?) Iyengar classes are class, not practice. We are expected to practice on our own, at which time we are welcome to use as many or few props as we wish and produce as much or as little persperation as we wish. |
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| Hmm interesting thread.
WTH was the original poster asking?
Oh. Right.
Well someone should differentiate between those teachers who spent significant time studying with Iyengar and those who made the occasional trip to Pune for a couple of weeks every two years. I'm not knocking either but there is a significant curriculum difference.
As for the movement of some senior teachers, obviously some are now teaching Anusara. Why? They'd have to be asked. But it seems superficially apparent that the demeanor that some carry in transfering Iyengar yoga, well that demeanor isn't for everyone all the time.
The idea of boredom in yoga is merely another way of saying "my nervous system is so overstimulated in my life that if it's not overstimulated (in my practice) I can't feel any living at all". It's quite sad, that we have to be entertained so often and so rigorously in order to feel anything in our bodies or occupy a furtive mind.
The idea of movement is also a bit over done (by both sides). Movement is relative. The body is only perfectly still one time and that is following your last breath. Just as tadasana appears to the passerby as "standing around" so too does a held pose appear to the shallow gazer as static and unmoving. If you are unable to feel anything in your body in the first place obviously holding anything for more than 10 seconds would be very uncomfortable. Moving rapidly has an effect, a level of stillness has an effect also. Those on the path must select which effect they are seeking - above and beyond entertained and not bored.
Frankly we have a fast moving society and that rate which we have created has consequences. While we get places quicker we miss actually being there. While our food is done in seconds there's little to no nutrition left in it. It is merely something to consider...then chose the path that is appropriate for you.
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| karmann - 2007-05-25 12:38 PM
Or, more generally, what are some criticisms of Iyengar yoga?
My experience (two years of intermediate and advanced classes with very senior teachers, workshops and teacher trainings) with Iyengar yoga has been:
I learned a lot, but: For me it is too verbal, pedantic, dogmatic and hierarchical. I feel that the attention to detail often gets in the way of seeing the big picture. I also do not like the way that you keep letting your body heat dissipate between poses and then stretch those now cold muscles. I think that the over-emphasis on headstand and shoulderstand harms many people's necks. I think that the use of props has become more of a hindrance than a help as they are over-used and too much time is wasted with them. I think that there needs to be a lot more attention given to the breath than is typical in an Iyengar class. I also don’t agree with the slavish devotion to both Patanjali and Mr. Iyengar as it is almost cultish and doesn’t usually engender the open-mindedness and questioning that is so critical to a healthy yoga practice in the long term. Although science and religion both have beliefs, the difference is that science is updated as a result of questioning by all and new information from all sources, and religion is more or less static, discourages questioning and follows an authority figure rather than reason. Science is egalitarian and religion is top down. Iyengar yoga in theory is more of a science, but in practice more of a religion. It is often like the Yoga Sutras are the Bible, Mr. Iyengar is both prophet and Pope (Iyengar writings being scripture) and the local teacher is the parish priest or a bishop if “senior” enough (using a Western Christian analogy). I think that Iyengar teachers get a much better training than most other teachers, but they seem to only quote Iyengar rather than think for themselves and teach their students what to think, rather than how to think. Some of the senior Iyengar teachers (especially the men) are also abusive in their attempt to emulate Mr. Iyengar’s style. They become experts in passing on what Mr. Iyengar has developed, but don't seem to develop on their own or encourage their students to find their own yoga. Mr. Iyengar is great because he developed his own yoga. That is the example that I think we should all follow. I have the greatest respect for Mr. Iyengar's contribution to yoga. Without him, nobody would even be mentioning alignment. These are my opinions about Iyengar yoga classes and teachers and why I studied it and also why I moved on. (These opinions are subjective and personal and may not apply to anyone else.)
I think that everyone who wants to teach yoga should study Iyengar yoga for a couple years as it is an important building block, but a broader perspective is also desirable. I have not moved on to Astanga or Bikram or whatever, although I have also practiced those styles and learned a lot from them as well. I have moved on to my own unique path of self discovery and encourage others to have an open mind and learn everything they can from everywhere, not just a single source and most importantly, find the teacher inside themselves.
Should a philosophy student only study one philosopher or should she study as many as possible and over time develop her own philosophy that grows with her experience? Why is a yoga student different?
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| I am honestly writing this: What jimg has written is correct and fantastic. Of course, each person has their own freedom to follow whatever they think is correct for them. Thanks jimg to put it so meticulously. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | kulkarnn - 2009-05-09 9:08 AM
I am honestly writing this: What jimg has written is correct and fantastic. Of course, each person has their own freedom to follow whatever they think is correct for them. Thanks jimg to put it so meticulously.
Ditto! I thought that what Jim wrote was the normal and what Yoga is suppose to be. Thanks Jim for posting this, sometimes its very hard to explain these kinds of things |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
This is an interesting thread, and I find much to agree and to disagree with.
I think that different styles of yoga fit at different points or different days in one's life. So, for me, the "Iyengar style vs. vinyasa" debate misses the point. There have been points in my life where each has been the best choice for me. There's plenty to criticize in both approaches, as one can see above.
I do agree with the comment above about Patanjali. I've read half-a-dozen commentaries on him, and I can recite about half of the sutras in Sanskrit. But for all that, I think Patajali is only an interesting reference point in the history of epistemology and ontology. Chanting the sutras helps me relax.
In terms of the original inquiry, the most senior Iyengar teacher to distance himself from BKS would be Ramanand Patel. My impression is that the certification system is a factor in his thinking.
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| Bay Guy - 2009-05-11 5:23 PM
I think that different styles of yoga fit at different points or different days in one's life. So, for me, the "Iyengar style vs. vinyasa" debate misses the point. There have been points in my life where each has been the best choice for me.
Excellent post!!! This really is the bottom line.
If it is working, do it; if it isn't working, find what does. Every day is new and we all need to meet it with openess and flexibility.
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| it really works in all aspects of life, doesn't it?
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Long-time Iyengar teachers lea
