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| My Iyengar yoga teacher, with whom I had the chance to take courses and “review” my practice last November, advised us NOT to do halasana, because, as he insisted, it gradually destroys/degenerates the upper neck vertebrae and may eventually bring problems in old age. Is that so? Does such a new theory exist?
I am anyway talking about that halasana in which the shoulders are still supported on the same folded blankets that we use in the Iyengar-way supported shoulderstand.
I have been doing this for years without feeling any pressure at all on my upper vertebrae and finding great comfort and “quietness” in this posture, keeping it for minutes…
Instead of this he showed us/advised other variations of halasana, with the legs or feet supported (which is too much trouble to prepare with props etc…), or leaning the legs on the right or on the left side in the back, in a way like an inverted twist (which is what indeed is putting some pressure on the back neck, until you manage to “find it”)
What is your opinion?
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| I can see that this pose could cause issues if done incorrectly but I thought the whole point of the Iyengar instruction to never do it off the blocks/mat/rugs was precisely to keep the neck protected? Certainly, my yoga teacher is teaching this way. Her last visit to the Iyengars was two years ago and she's just passed her intermediate teaching cert.
I guess Nick will have plenty to say about this one? :-)
Fee |
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| That's news to me. It is definately not advice from Pune.
Sounds like a thread for Nick  |
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Expert Yogi
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| Hmmmm....this is interesting. I can see an Iyengar teacher telling specific students to use a chair etc. for halasana, but not giving a generalized rule for everyone. And certainly I would hesitate to give parsva halasana to any student who seemed not ready to do the full pose. This is a bit of a puzzler to me. |
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| It depends on the student.
Can it be dangerous? Of course.
So can Paschimotanasana be dangerous.
I personally do not do Halasana becasue it is not right for my body in its current state.
If I were to do it then it would be with feet on the wall or thighs on a Halasana bench, bolsters, etcetera.
I doubt highly that there is a "new" theory. |
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| Hey Kristi:
Why are you un-necessarily creating a seed of doubt in your mind? Have not seen Yogis doing Halasana for years and they showed good health in the old age such as a) Prof T Krishnamachar b) BKS c) etc.?
And, you yourself have done it for years and have not broken anything. So, what of old age? That is same as now, except the practice shall be milder and everything shall probably be milder.
When a teacher says something like this, you must ask them proof from both angles.
kristi - 2007-05-10 3:19 AM
My Iyengar yoga teacher, with whom I had the chance to take courses and “review” my practice last November, advised us NOT to do halasana, because, as he insisted, it gradually destroys/degenerates the upper neck vertebrae and may eventually bring problems in old age. Is that so? Does such a new theory exist?
I am anyway talking about that halasana in which the shoulders are still supported on the same folded blankets that we use in the Iyengar-way supported shoulderstand.
I have been doing this for years without feeling any pressure at all on my upper vertebrae and finding great comfort and “quietness” in this posture, keeping it for minutes…
Instead of this he showed us/advised other variations of halasana, with the legs or feet supported (which is too much trouble to prepare with props etc…), or leaning the legs on the right or on the left side in the back, in a way like an inverted twist (which is what indeed is putting some pressure on the back neck, until you manage to “find it”)
What is your opinion?
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Location: London, England | Hi there,
Well, if Fi and Jonnie are insisting that I weigh in, I'll weigh in
I think that shoulderstand and plough can potentially be very good for the cervical spine, but are often perofrmed in a way that ultimately is likely to cause degeneration. I think, potentially, that shoulderstand could be more harmful than a badly performed headstand-the neck is flexed, and the forces generated by the posture travel through the spine, rather than along it.
Do mats/blankets help? Yes and no-although I suspect that in many cases they help because they allow the student to use bad technique more easily and for longer.
I think a useful thing yo do, perhaps is to imagine that you have a small piece of foam, like a lumbar suppport, but designed for the neck. Try and support the curve of the neck so that you do not flatten the vertebra towards the floor (this is where blankets almost certainly fail). In this case you are preserving the neck and its joints. It's when the cervical lordosis is lost that the capacity for damage is greatly increased. Keeping the eyes focussed on the ceiling directly overhead helps greatly.
Nick |
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Nick wrote :
“ …support the curve of the neck so that you do not flatten the vertebra towards the floor (this is where blankets almost certainly fail). In this case you are preserving the neck and its joints. It's when the cervical lordosis is lost that the capacity for damage is greatly increased. Keeping the eyes focussed on the ceiling directly overhead helps greatly “
These were EXACTLY the instructions/opinions that my teacher kept giving us !
Sometimes I wrongly felt that he was maybe too persistent/strict with such details and was wondering whether I should go on and just do things my own way. I was wrong.
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Location: London, England | Phew! |
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| One big factor: I think it depends on the tightness of the shoulders
If the spacula are underneath you, how could the neck flatten to the floor? If a student can not get the shoulders under, then they should be doing legs up the wall instead...
Chin lock vs. Chin lift?
Sometimes I teach to lift the chin slightly so that there is air underneath the shoulders. Also, most important, take the shoulders one-at-a-time and draw them under. Some students don't realize that they can bring them closer than they think. The blankets tend to make it harder to squeeze the shoulders together.
My shoulders are very open:
I worry about my shoulders/neck because sometimes it feels as though my shoulders are too close together. I feel like I'm hovering off of the arms. Anyone else ever feel this way?
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| It’s funny Neel…
I hadn’t noticed your answer before, I read it only now…
Indeed looooots of “seeds of doubt” come in my mind very often in terms of my yoga practice!
Some are proved right, some are counseled after a while.
It’s just because I keep practicing without an instructor, some times people tell me I overdo, some times I have small injuries here and there, I correct, go on, go forward, go backwards all the time… But this is also a very interesting way…
Thanks a lot
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| So much conflicting advice. Thought yoga was meant to be good for you?!! How do we know which/what to do when such doubt is expressed about the safety of asanas???????!!!!
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| vyaadhistyaanasa.nshayapramaadaalasyaaviratibhraa.ntidarshannalabdhabhuumikatvaanavasth-itavaani (longest word in Sutras) chittavikshepaaste.ntaraayaaH
--- Patanjali Yoga Sutras ... Chapter 1.
Describes obstacles in the practice of Yoga.
sa.nshaya - doubt
kristi - 2007-05-11 10:03 AM
It’s funny Neel…
I hadn’t noticed your answer before, I read it only now…
Indeed looooots of “seeds of doubt” come in my mind very often in terms of my yoga practice!
Some are proved right, some are counseled after a while.
It’s just because I keep practicing without an instructor, some times people tell me I overdo, some times I have small injuries here and there, I correct, go on, go forward, go backwards all the time… But this is also a very interesting way…
Thanks a lot
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Location: London, England | Hi Sunnybird,
I think shoulderstand is potentially quite good for you-so I don't mean what I say to put you off-just to put you off doing it in a way which is harmful to you
One of the things that determines the posture you should take in shoulderstand is how far can you extend your shoulders? Some people can only do about 15 degrees-others can do up to 45 degrees or so. There's also the factor of arm length.
Relating to the above, I think that as students attempt to get their torso and legs vertical, they may make up for lack of shoulder extension by increasing the kyphosis of the thoracic spine and flattening thelordosis of the cervical spine. Commonly, you will also see a flattening of the lumbar lordosis-the entire spine is flexed and unstable. What should be happening is that at each of the three spinal levels, the normal curvature of the spine is the objective-you won't get there, but just trying to head towards spinal stability is usually sufficient.
What I try to do is to lean against my hands, rather than push my torso up to the ceiling-this moves my line of gravity so that the body weight is over the shoulders, rather than over the neck and head. It also really gets your bandha activated, as the abdominals activate to stop your hips extending and your feet falling to the floor. It can be quite a workout
Take care, feel free to ask.
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Location: London, England | Hi Karmann,
Yes, thoughts on both-will get back to you later.
Nick |
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Expert Yogi
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| karmann - I have heard very well reasoned arguments for both sides. You need to find what works best for you. |
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| Nick - 2007-05-11 4:10 PM
Hi Sunnybird,
I think shoulderstand is potentially quite good for you-so I don't mean what I say to put you off-just to put you off doing it in a way which is harmful to you
One of the things that determines the posture you should take in shoulderstand is how far can you extend your shoulders? Some people can only do about 15 degrees-others can do up to 45 degrees or so. There's also the factor of arm length.
Relating to the above, I think that as students attempt to get their torso and legs vertical, they may make up for lack of shoulder extension by increasing the kyphosis of the thoracic spine and flattening thelordosis of the cervical spine. Commonly, you will also see a flattening of the lumbar lordosis-the entire spine is flexed and unstable. What should be happening is that at each of the three spinal levels, the normal curvature of the spine is the objective-you won't get there, but just trying to head towards spinal stability is usually sufficient.
What I try to do is to lean against my hands, rather than push my torso up to the ceiling-this moves my line of gravity so that the body weight is over the shoulders, rather than over the neck and head. It also really gets your bandha activated, as the abdominals activate to stop your hips extending and your feet falling to the floor. It can be quite a workout
Take care, feel free to ask.
Nick
Hi Nick,
I'm not entirely sure what you mean about the shoulder extension bit?! Sorry, am not an advanced yogini....lol
Also, I thought the whole point of shoulderstand was to try and get the torso and legs as vertical as possible in order to benefit from the asana? I do find that the more I try and do this though, my breathing feels a bit more restricted - probably because I'm resting my body weight more on top of my neck, spinal area rather than my shoulders.
On my next shoulderstand, I will focus on where the line of gravity is and adjust it accordingly,
sunnybird
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Location: London, England | Hi SunnyBird,
Yes, i think that you are right, the instruction is to go vertical-but as you have discovered, it's not always appropiate-adopting a posture where breathing is actively restricted is not yoga. I mean, lots of postures make it difficult to breathe optimally, but generally, we use this to search for ways of easing the constriction, not surrendering to it. If yuo breathe optimally, the descent of the diaphragm will push your feet away from your shoulders-at what angle your body is to the ground will be a consequence of this push. Think of the diaphragm as an upside-down umbrella. If yuo are breathing optimally, you will feel the umbrella push on your rib cage and abdomen-but if yuor posture is bad, it is as though some of the umbrella struts are broken, so the umbrella doesn't open fully. This engages the core muscles so that the resulting posture is more advanced and better for you.
Nick
Edited by Nick 2007-05-13 10:08 AM
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| thanks for the feedback Nick.
OK, during my savangasana this evening, I didn't push my upper back up as high as I could have done which resulted in me not being as vertical as I could have been. I noticed that I then used my elbows and shoulders more to hold my body weight, rather than have the weight of my body directly over my head and top spinal cord.
I have a couple of questions re: savangasana?
1) I noticed I had to consciously relax my neck so I could breathe optimally whilst in savangasana - is this what I should be doing?
2) How long is it recommended to hold savangasana? How safe is it to hold it for a long time? By a long time, I mean about 10 mins?!
sunnybird
whoops, I've just realised this is a thread about halasan and I'm going off on one about savangasana!!! apologies!! |
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Location: London, England |
Hi Sunnibird,
Well, as you know, I sometimes do things a little differently, but I would say do not relax the neck-contract the appropiate muscles which preserve the neck architecture. this is a difficult movement to explain. You basically retract your chin, which should help the curve of the cervical spine be reinforced and lifted. Perhaps the easiest way to think of this is that when people demonstrate the so called 'forward head posture,' they often demonstrate a protruding jaw as well-when correcting neck posture, it's usually vital to check the muscles and alignment of the jaw.
when you think about it, shoulderstand is basically having your head forced forwards-this may make the jaw protrude, and will probably result in a flattening of the cervical curvature. so retracting the chin should push the back of the skull against the floor with a resulting lift of the middle of the neck. As I said before, I think the eye focus is very important.
I would be careful of spending too long intitially in the sarvangasana cycle-depends how good your neck is, really.
Nick
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| Think I know what you mean Nick! I have realised with yoga (as with most things), it is a case of doing it yourself to be able to fully understand it and adjust things as necessary....
Oooh, one more thing I forgot to ask about savangasana! When doing it, do my arms (the bottom part which supports my body) need to be in line with my shoulders? They kind of splay out to the sides a bit when I am doing it!!
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Location: London, England | Hi Sunnybird,
I would say the truth is a bit more complicated than simply drawing the elbows together. What you should be doing is externally rotating your shoulders, which will tend to have the effect of drawing them closer together-try it standing, and you will see that this is true. It will also aid in shoulder extension, which will push the triceps into the floor, pushing you up.
Nick |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Iyengar answer: belt those elbows. If they splay out, you are putting even more pressure on your neck. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Glenda,
Wouldn't belting the elbows have the opposite effect, rather like back belts are now considered as doing more harm than good because they tend to de-activate the muscles which would support good posture?
Nick |
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| I have had my elbows belted before, and actually it was surprisingly comfortable. I felt a lot more 'aligned'!! but I don't think I paid too much attention to the pressure on my neck/spine at this time as those were early days yet for me....
sb |
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Can halasana be harmful ?
