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Lifted kneecaps Moderators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 2 Now viewing page 2 [25 messages per page]	View previous thread :: View next thread
Yoga -> Iyengar Yoga	Message format

tourist

Posted 2007-05-06 3:52 PM (#85384 - in reply to #85315)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

Expert Yogi

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bred - you have a lot of work to do! You have to learn how to engage the quads without slamming your knees back. And watch, watch, watch how you stand all day long. Unless you want to have back and knee problems

I had a friend in elementary school whose legs could bend so far back her legs looked like the letter C. I thought it was the coolest thing when I was 11 years old. I can't tell you how happy I am that I never learned how to copy her well, in spite of a great deal of practice

bredmond812

Posted 2007-05-06 4:24 PM (#85390 - in reply to #84702)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

tourist--

so even when people say straight legs, i should think, in my case, just dont let the legs lock back. Instead, apply some restraint?

thanks in advance,

B Redmond

tourist

Posted 2007-05-06 8:33 PM (#85403 - in reply to #85390)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

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Absolutely! Spend time doing the work in dandasana so you get the feel of it, then use a mirror, video camera or a good friend to look at you in tadasana to see how much you need to bend the knees. It will feel like a LOT. Especially do not hang in the front knee in trikonasana, parsvottanasana etc. I have a long way to go with this as well, though mine is not so visible, I can feel it inside.

kristi

Posted 2007-05-08 3:27 AM (#85525 - in reply to #84702)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

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Posts: 258
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Also for me, this was a very very useful discussion to read !
It’s been some time now that I have started to worry that I was maybe harming my knees by stretching them too hard and in the wrong way in some of the standing postures. So all these details are very helpful, since I am practicing all alone with no instructor.
Please,
could anyone suggest a web site or maybe a book with simple anatomical illustrations showing where exactly in the human body are all these above mentioned muscles with the difficult/unknown terms rotated?
Kristi

Nick

Posted 2007-05-08 4:54 AM (#85528 - in reply to #85525)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

Location: London, England

http://www.carletonsportsmed.com/Knee_hyperextension/knee_hyperextension.htm

http://www.kneeguru.co.uk/dictionary/doku.php/h/hyperextension

Hi Kristi,
The above is a site with a picture of a hyper-extended knee-scarily hyper-extended. Most yoga students cannot get this level of hyper-extension, but many give it everyting they've got

If you type in "knee hyper-extension" on google you will find lots.
What I look for in students is that the calf muscles do not look like they are being pushed backwards by the backward movement of the tibia-you often get a sense of the skin being stretched over the calf and peroneal muscles-as you can see from the picture. Also, often the patella (kneecap) is not pulled up the femur-one of the reaons students hyper-extend is so that the quadriceps turns off and the effort of maintaining the posture is lessened. Hyper-extension also makes the hamstrings get further stretch over the knee joint, and the knee ligaments and connective tissue, which then sets up a cycle where the student learns to identify these sensations of stretch with doing a posture well.
A typical posture to experience this would be hanumansana, where the back of the front leg is brought closer to the ground if the knee is allowed to hyper-extend. Teaching students not to do this can be an arduous process!

When the hamstrings are contracted so that the knee is supported from underneath, you will see that the quadriceps automatically contract, and the kneecap travels up the front of the thigh. The kneecap is sliding over the patello-femoral joint in front of the knee joint. Watch for this in postures such as janu-sirsasana B, and padottanasana.

Take care
Nick

Edited by Nick 2007-05-08 5:01 AM

Nick

Posted 2007-05-08 2:06 PM (#85581 - in reply to #85528)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

Location: London, England

Hi all,
This site shows a rather dramatic knee hyper-extension-make sure you haven't eaten for at least five hours before you look at this video-it's of a gymnast's knees when they land badly-can't believe how much this must have hurt

Nick

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1146570184/How_to_Break_Your_Knee_Caps

jonnie

Posted 2007-05-08 2:16 PM (#85583 - in reply to #84702)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

puke.............

jonnie

Posted 2007-05-08 2:18 PM (#85584 - in reply to #84702)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

....though if you enjoyed that. Heres a website of a man throwing kittens into a meat mincer.

www.nickisasickman.com

Jonathon

Nick

Posted 2007-05-08 2:29 PM (#85586 - in reply to #85584)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

Location: London, England

Hi Jonnie,
Sorry, yes that was a bit graphic. When you look at what people do to their knee in yoga postures, though, many of them do this, but not so dramatically-this is an example of an injury that occurs in a fraction of a second-but what are the penalties of repeatedly loading the knee for years, albeit less dramatically? Theoretically, I would imagine the list of possible trauma is identical-ACL tears and ruptures, osteoarthritis, hamstring strain and rupture, etc.
Take care
Nick

jonnie

Posted 2007-05-08 2:34 PM (#85588 - in reply to #84702)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

I should have put a

at the end of the last post. I'm ok with graphic.

It makes my knees tingle in the same way my teeth tingle when I think of Edward Norton's head stomping scene in American History X

Jonathon

OrangeMat

Posted 2007-05-08 8:20 PM (#85602 - in reply to #85584)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

jonnie - 2007-05-08 2:18 PM ....though if you enjoyed that. Heres a website of a man throwing kittens into a meat mincer. www.nickisasickman.com Jonathon

Jonnie, that link didn't work.

heh

Bay Guy

Posted 2007-05-08 9:57 PM (#85614 - in reply to #85581)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

Expert Yogi

Posts: 2479
2000

Location: A Blue State

Nick - 2007-05-08 2:06 PM Hi all, This site shows a rather dramatic knee hyper-extension-make sure you haven't eaten for at least five hours before you look at this video-it's of a gymnast's knees when they land badly-can't believe how much this must have hurt

Nick http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1146570184/How_to_Break_Your_Knee_Caps

OMG, that is horrible to watch...like something from bad SciFi.

.. bg

Edited by Bay Guy 2007-05-08 9:58 PM

Bay Guy

Posted 2007-05-08 10:00 PM (#85615 - in reply to #85384)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

Expert Yogi

Posts: 2479
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Location: A Blue State

tourist - 2007-05-06 3:52 PM bred - you have a lot of work to do! You have to learn how to engage the quads without slamming your knees back. And watch, watch, watch how you stand all day long. Unless you want to have back and knee problems

Okay, but this raises another question. Lots of folks have some degree of hyperextension in the knees, and "everyone agrees" that it is bad. Is there some definite evidence that this is bad? Or is this some "common wisdom" thing for which there is no medical evidence?

Ever the skeptic,

.. bg

Nick

Posted 2007-05-09 12:49 AM (#85624 - in reply to #85615)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

Location: London, England

Hi BG,
In fact, no one agrees whether hyper-extending knees are bad for you-many people get through their whole lives without injury. But supposing that gymnast had hyper-extending knees normally-this would pre-dipose him to injury in the situation shown. To me, people who are hyper-mobile make classic mistakes when they practice yoga, and the same goes for people with knee hyper-extension (the hyper-mobile often have knee hyper-extension). So people who allow hyper-extension to be trained on a constant basis, may have a greater risk of the injuries discussed earlier.
Hyper-mobility itself can have a diverse range of affects-one of my neighbours is always talking about going to the local hospital for herself and her kids-having hyper-mobility leaves you at greater risk of infection (don't know why), so she amd her children are always getting infections of one kind or another. The other day, her womb prolapsed-she is only forty. I know you were asking specifically about knee hyper-extension, but they can be related.
take care
Nick

Nick

Posted 2007-05-09 2:17 AM (#85630 - in reply to #85624)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

Location: London, England

Hi there,
I also think that it's not so much the angle at the knee-i.e. whether the leg is straight, flexed, or hyper-extended, but which muscles are controlling the posture or movement-does the posture put so much strain on the four ligaments of the knee that they are destined to fail, resulting in joint instability and osteoarthritis? Or are the muscles around the knee active, therefore unloading the ligaments which were, after all, designed to prevent abnormally large range of motion, as well as storing potential energy when stretched which translates into kinetic energy for the next movement.
As well as the effect on the knee itself of hyper-extension, we should perhaps also consider the effects on posture-knee hyper-extension is bound to affect the whole body posture. When you look at people with knee hyper-extension, you will usually see that they have an increase in the curve of the lumbar, and futher effects up the body. This in itself is good reason to tackle knee hyper-extension-so I would say that it's probably wise to train good knee posture, not just for the knee, but for the rest of you as well-I'm not sure if I'd like to try and prove any of the above(partly because it would involve ruining some people's knees with yoga postures), but if you like, I'll put together a list of sites so that you can look at what the various knee professionals think.
I think that the general consensus is, knee hyper-extension may not be bad in itself, but don't over-use it to get to postures-many people in yoga can be seen getting in to postures not by having good posture, but by hyper-extending their knee, which often gives them bad posture-then yoga is not therapeutic.
Nick

Posted 2007-05-09 3:07 AM (#85638 - in reply to #85615)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

Hyperextension is mobility for which the structure of the joint is not intended.
Therefore, structurally, it exacerbates unreasonable demand on the conective tissue.
I have not read specific studies but it is plain from an engineering perspective.

Bay Guy - 2007-05-08 7:00 PM

Ever the skeptic,

.. bg

TampaEric

Posted 2007-05-09 9:43 AM (#85680 - in reply to #85581)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

Arabian fronts are alway blind landings.

I always hated tumbling forwards because of this issue. Some gymnasts rebound out of these so that they immediately tumble forward or back. This helps you engage the legs instead of sticking a pass with such a difficult landing.

Tumbling is really a joy, but I think once you hit about 25-30, it's time to give it up.

kristi

Posted 2007-05-09 2:48 PM (#85735 - in reply to #84702)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

Veteran

Posts: 258
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Still very interesting discussion and thanks for the links Nick !
Only that, what I actually meant and was asking for (and maybe it was not that clear due to my poor English) was a simple kind of illustration/or link/or book, in which someone who is not acquainted with terms like for example “femur”, “quadricepts”, “tibia” “rectus femoris” etc. can see which/where exactly these muscles are. And not only having to do with the knee, but also for the whole of the human body. It would help us, non-professionals, better understand/follow such discussions.

Nick

Posted 2007-05-09 5:34 PM (#85748 - in reply to #85735)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

Location: London, England

Hi kristi,
Well, whenever I need help, I just type in the word-after a while you recognize the sites that are most useful, and this is better than just going to one site for all your needs-you learn more through looking-will keep it in mind though

Nick

tourist

Posted 2007-05-09 6:45 PM (#85751 - in reply to #85735)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

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Posts: 8442
5000

kristi - I like the common terms as well

You can find all the anatomy you will likely ever need at Bartleby.com where they have the entire Grey's Anatomy (not the TV show!) online. Great fun

Posted 2007-05-10 12:20 AM (#85776 - in reply to #85735)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

The Anatomy Coloring Book (ACB) is quite interesting and helpful.

kristi - 2007-05-09 11:48 AM

Still very interesting discussion and thanks for the links Nick !
Only that, what I actually meant and was asking for (and maybe it was not that clear due to my poor English) was a simple kind of illustration/or link/or book, in which someone who is not acquainted with terms like for example “femur”, “quadricepts”, “tibia” “rectus femoris” etc. can see which/where exactly these muscles are. And not only having to do with the knee, but also for the whole of the human body. It would help us, non-professionals, better understand/follow such discussions.

kristi

Posted 2007-05-10 2:41 AM (#85783 - in reply to #84702)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

Veteran

Posts: 258
100

thanks to all !!

Nick

Posted 2007-05-10 4:09 AM (#85791 - in reply to #85783)
Subject: RE: Lifted kneecaps

Location: London, England

Hi Kristi,
I recommend 'anatomy and human movement'- I always do, because it answers the questions other books do not have the space to answer-it's complete.

Nick

Edited by Nick 2007-05-10 4:10 AM

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