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Obnoxious students
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SiriusSpirit
Posted 2007-04-29 11:11 AM (#84555)
Subject: Obnoxious students


My Yoga Journal online newsletter came with this subject, which made me think of one student of mine. I know I am to be learning from her, and it's a difficult lesson for me.

I have a student who drops in now and then who seems to use the gym primarily as a social tool. She is not a serious yoga student. That's all well and good -- I just want to give a little background.

Early on, I found her to be disruptive in class (this is someone in her late 40's) by making comments, making noises, smacking loudly at no-see-ums that were only flying around her, and so on. She attempted a few times to inform me that some of my more fragile, overweight, and older students "can do more," insinuating that I wasn't challenging them enough and they needed to step up the pace -- of course they were healthy enough to kick it in to a higher gear!
She is also one of those students who "thinks ahead" -- she's always assuming that she knows what I'm going to say next. I can't figure out where she came up with the sequence she always thinks I'm going to teach. . . I'm guessing it's from someone else's classes! ?
I learned not to pay any attention/react to the negative attention seeking behavior, and it soon went away (for the most part).

But the other day she came to one of my classes and did something that left me utterly shocked and speechless. We were doing a triangle, and I had a brand new student in the class. The "attention-seeking" student stopped what she was doing (in hindsight I wonder if she was having difficulty with the asana and didn't want to do it), walked to the new student, and began putting her hands all over her, positioning her!!!! Mind you, again this is not a serious yoga student by any means, much less a teacher -- and *I* don't touch my students, and I never would without ASKING!

I occasionally talk at the beginning of class about not judging ourselves or others, not paying attention to what other students are doing in the class, working on quieting our minds and focusing on our breathing -- in fact I talked about that at the beginning of this class! I feel like I need to address this -- perhaps not individually -- but class-wise. I never dreamed I would feel the need to say, "Don't touch each other without permission" !!!
I feel like this student really crossed a boundary. comment? Please?
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tourist
Posted 2007-04-29 12:22 PM (#84562 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students



Expert Yogi

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Are you serious???? I hesitate to help in class and I am a teacher. I always ask whoever is teaching if it is ok to help before I do anything. What would I have done in this situation? Good grief - that is a tough one.... I think I would have responded with a bit of shock and asked the "assisted" student if she was having a problem. Then I would rush over and thank the "helper" and get between her and the other student to indicate I would be able to help. At some point I would let people know that they aren't insured as teachers so they shouldn't be helping Assuming I didn't drop dead of shock right away
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OrangeMat
Posted 2007-04-29 12:33 PM (#84564 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


I would think this is an issue more of that student having a lack of respect for the teacher than the touching thing.

I vaguely remember hearing a student in one of my teacher's classes once constantly chattering with another student, helping them and coaching them during class. It was quiet, but still, normally there's no talking other than our teacher's voice, so I did notice someone else whispering that way. Which is odd for me, because I'm usually so engrossed in my own practice (as it should be for all!). Anyway, I think I remember hearing my teacher say something as she was helping us all into a pose (forget what it was, but not during a flow segment for sure), something along the lines of "I'm the only teacher in this class now." Not a major announcement to the class, just to this one student and I happened to overhear it.

Not that I'd suggest you do the same, just describing what my teacher did which I'm sure was a last resort attempt to get this person to stop talking, since now that I think about it, it had been going on for most of the class, especially during the more challenging poses (this was a mixed level class). Speaking to the entire class about being truly involved and present within their own practice is definitely the proper tactic, though I do appreciate your frustration with a certain someone that it's specifically directed to doesn't get the hint.



Edited by OrangeMat 2007-04-29 12:35 PM
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yogabrian
Posted 2007-04-29 2:02 PM (#84567 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


Nip it in the bud. Tell her not to come back to your class. Period.
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Posted 2007-04-29 6:02 PM (#84593 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


I've encountered similar situations; sometimes as a student participating in the class, others while leading the class. What I've gathered from these experiences is that, more important than what you actually do or say, is that you maintain your integrity as the person leading this class: Maintain that calm-assertiveness. Think equanimity amidst intensity.
The philosophy and principles of yoga apply to everything we do, and situations like these can serve as excellent examples to your students on how to apply those principles to situations outside their practice.

More specifically, simply addressing the offending student by saying "Suzie [or whoever], focus on your practice" should be enough, if not then you would need to be more assertive. Perhaps even telling the offending student to move to the other side of the room.
Of course, after the class is over it would also be a good idea to address the student privately, away from the other students. Make it their choice: If they can't stay on their mat, then they can no longer participate in your class.

Hope this helps.
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Posted 2007-04-29 7:28 PM (#84603 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


There is an entire thread by flexybendy I believe that addresses this overall concept.

But let me give you some specifics for your situation.

There is a concept that all fitness centers are accutely aware of. It is referred to as Risk Management. It is of great concern as it prevents expensive litigation. The first thing I would do is speak to the General Manager of the gym. They WILL want to handle this. It is invasive for a member of the gym to be touching anyone else without express permission. It matters not if it's yoga or in the free weight area.

Make sure the GM tells you how he or she will handle this. Make sure if it is played off as nothing you ask for it in writing from management. You are responsible for your class.

Handling the student who's needing attention really is addressed thoroughly in the other post. Please read that and if there is a gap then let me know and I will gladly fill in any pieces you deem missing.

Edited by purnayoga 2007-04-29 7:29 PM
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Posted 2007-04-29 8:05 PM (#84607 - in reply to #84603)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


I agree 100% with Purna and Brian--tell the boss and have her cease immediately. Thanks so much for posting this situation and good luck.
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mattlab
Posted 2007-04-29 10:45 PM (#84616 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


Wow! I cant believe she did that. I have a very annoying student she comes in late always, makes ridiculous amounts of noise, imagine slamming the door coffee in one hand mat in the other, sunglasses on. Plops down and starts asking "am I doing this right?" "I thought it was done this way?" "Ow that hurts." She majorly needs attention but I attend other classes and she is the same way. I actually like her though I just wish she wouldnt need so much time when I have an entire class and I really wish that she wouldnt talk during relaxation and actually try and lay still and relax.

So I started thinking what if she went over and corrected somebody because that would be going beyond being annoying to really invading someone elses space and putting them in danger and in the least embarrasing them. I would never correct someone in a class that was not my own and as others have said especially not without asking them first. I think that I would have or would in the future draw attention to her in the act, address the problem to whole class. I mean she obviously thinks that what she did was fine maybe a little embarrasment would help.

The student I was mentioning was sitting up and talking out loud loudly during the beginning of relaxation. I suggested to the class to bring the heels together and then let the feet splay out to the side, I noticed that many students feet were really far out and I thought that it would help but anyway she says loudly "I thought they were supposed to be apart." I was kind of embarrassed and she kind of flustered me because everyone else was laying down, eyes closed. I just said something to effect that "it really doesnt matter the important thing is to do it." She ended up being a good example and she didnt say anything else...until the next time that is.

Matt

Edited by mattlab 2007-04-29 10:46 PM
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jonnie
Posted 2007-04-29 11:33 PM (#84618 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


You're are all way too soft.

The reason we never have this problem in Iyengar is because we simply tell them to shut up and get back to their mat. If they don't, then we hit them with a stick
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Posted 2007-04-30 3:24 AM (#84627 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


Which is why the practice has to periodically be defended to "haters".

There is no justification that I can even remotely conjure up for intimidating, embarassing, or humiliating a student of yoga. Period. A piano student, perhaps. I would not, but then there's no Piano Sutras that I am aware of (yet).

All of the students in the class, whether you like it or not, are observing how the Yoga Teacher handles the student and the outbursts. This is where the teacher is judged by how she/he leads her/his life. If we, as yoga teachers, react with harshness, violence (of intention even), or a lack of compassion then it begs the question of "what are we teaching?". That having been said, Guruji is Guruji. No issue there. But when others are NOT Guruji and are emulating or chanelling, this is not appropriate.

One of the larger issues with this sort of thing is to handle the situation, no matter what it might be, in a less reactive way. If we fall into behavioral patterns (samskara) then it speaks poorly of the years of Yoga we've been doing. What have we accomplished with our practice if we cannot deftly handle a needy person in class. After all, it is the needy we expect in yoga. It is the issue-filled person we expect. People come to yoga for help. Our help. Sometimes they don't even know it. Sometimes we can help (as long as we are not over "invested" in the helping) sometimes we can not.

But these attention folks are there to learn and we should find appreciation for every person coming to learn yoga (without being a door mat). Remember, there will be a slightly different answer for each person. The mousey teacher would be advised to speak up more while the domineering teaching would be counseled to soften and teach more from the heart. It is in just the same way a student that is hypermobile in the knee would be instructed to microbend the front leg in Trikonasana while a student that is stiffer would be instructed to straighten the leg (align the bones).


Edited by purnayoga 2007-04-30 3:25 AM
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mishoga
Posted 2007-04-30 5:39 AM (#84631 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students



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I use to have a problem with this but now it's not an issue, (except for the yoga student that decided to practice his personal yogasana practice during a 2 hour class).
Just recently I had two students come into my class. Not a huga class, between 7-12 regular students. From the moment these women walked in they were giggling and chattering. I quickly put my finger to my mouth and did Shhhhhhhhhh, please respect the other students who are focused and engaged in their practice. The talking is distracting. That stopped them immediately but quite honestly I don't think they'll return.
There are 3 other Yoga teachers. I don't know what they allow in their class but this is my class. I will not tolerate a new or existing student entering and throwing the energy for the students that are in their own way. It's rude and inconsiderate.
Pull the student over and have a friendly chat, plus speak with management.

That would shock me another student adjusting someone.......amazing! I think at that moment I might forget myself and become quite snippy with the offender.
As I'm becoming more comfortable with my students and in myself and my mission, I feel comfortable setting standards that should be practiced by all attendees. If not, there's the door.
I have no problems with dealing with management in this regard, should the offender take a distorted story to them. I've had this happen several times and I've been lucky that the gym director and fitness director have stood by me 100%.
Dealing with difficult, disruptive students should be covered in all TT.
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-04-30 7:40 AM (#84636 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


SiriusSpirit - 2007-04-29 11:11 AM

My Yoga Journal online newsletter came with this subject, which made me think of one student of mine. I know I am to be learning from her, and it's a difficult lesson for me.

I have a student who drops in now and then who seems to use the gym primarily as a social tool. She is not a serious yoga student. That's all well and good -- I just want to give a little background.

Early on, I found her to be disruptive in class (this is someone in her late 40's) by making comments, making noises, smacking loudly at no-see-ums that were only flying around her, and so on. She attempted a few times to inform me that some of my more fragile, overweight, and older students "can do more," insinuating that I wasn't challenging them enough and they needed to step up the pace -- of course they were healthy enough to kick it in to a higher gear!
She is also one of those students who "thinks ahead" -- she's always assuming that she knows what I'm going to say next. I can't figure out where she came up with the sequence she always thinks I'm going to teach. . . I'm guessing it's from someone else's classes! ?
I learned not to pay any attention/react to the negative attention seeking behavior, and it soon went away (for the most part).

But the other day she came to one of my classes and did something that left me utterly shocked and speechless. We were doing a triangle, and I had a brand new student in the class. The "attention-seeking" student stopped what she was doing (in hindsight I wonder if she was having difficulty with the asana and didn't want to do it), walked to the new student, and began putting her hands all over her, positioning her!!!! Mind you, again this is not a serious yoga student by any means, much less a teacher -- and *I* don't touch my students, and I never would without ASKING!

I occasionally talk at the beginning of class about not judging ourselves or others, not paying attention to what other students are doing in the class, working on quieting our minds and focusing on our breathing -- in fact I talked about that at the beginning of this class! I feel like I need to address this -- perhaps not individually -- but class-wise. I never dreamed I would feel the need to say, "Don't touch each other without permission" !!!
I feel like this student really crossed a boundary. comment? Please?



Dear SirusSpirit: I would say this time in the following way. I do not always state the same. I mean I state the same truth in different ways, to keep variety for myself. !!!

- You are too good a Yoga Teacher - that you allowed this to happen.

- You are NOT a good Yoga Teacher - that you allowed this to happen.

But, you may be a handicapped Yoga Teacher because you are slave of the Gym where you teach.

Sorry for any offense, but the above are only thoughts to think. I am sure you shall find an answer yourself.
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mishoga
Posted 2007-04-30 8:32 AM (#84641 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students



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I have one thing to add here.....

I have not mastered dealing with a student that has excessive flatulence. I have one that continues throughout the class. It is distracting to the students and me. Not so much her flatulent condition but the expressions on my students faces when they look at me. I can see they want to bust out. I'm gigglin thinking about their faces. Some of them actually go out of their way to make these funny faces, kind of like Buckwheat from the Little Rascals, when he was surprised.
How do you all deal with this issue?

I can't bring myself to discuss this with her. She is a very educated professional and the sweetest woman.

Ughhhhhh, i have to go iron for a hour!!!! YUCK!!!!!

Edited by mishoga 2007-04-30 8:35 AM
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Posted 2007-04-30 8:59 AM (#84642 - in reply to #84641)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


Mish--ironing is my favorite yoga--I love it--spray starch, sharp creases--just you and the steam.
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mishoga
Posted 2007-04-30 9:27 AM (#84644 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students



Expert Yogi

Posts: 1738
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Location: right where I'm supposed to be
Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
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jonnie
Posted 2007-04-30 9:50 AM (#84646 - in reply to #84627)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


purnayoga - 2007-04-30 11:24 AM

Which is why the practice has to periodically be defended to "haters".

There is no justification that I can even remotely conjure up for intimidating, embarassing, or humiliating a student of yoga. Period. A piano student, perhaps. I would not, but then there's no Piano Sutras that I am aware of (yet).

All of the students in the class, whether you like it or not, are observing how the Yoga Teacher handles the student and the outbursts. This is where the teacher is judged by how she/he leads her/his life. If we, as yoga teachers, react with harshness, violence (of intention even), or a lack of compassion then it begs the question of "what are we teaching?". That having been said, Guruji is Guruji. No issue there. But when others are NOT Guruji and are emulating or chanelling, this is not appropriate.

One of the larger issues with this sort of thing is to handle the situation, no matter what it might be, in a less reactive way. If we fall into behavioral patterns (samskara) then it speaks poorly of the years of Yoga we've been doing. What have we accomplished with our practice if we cannot deftly handle a needy person in class. After all, it is the needy we expect in yoga. It is the issue-filled person we expect. People come to yoga for help. Our help. Sometimes they don't even know it. Sometimes we can help (as long as we are not over "invested" in the helping) sometimes we can not.

But these attention folks are there to learn and we should find appreciation for every person coming to learn yoga (without being a door mat). Remember, there will be a slightly different answer for each person. The mousey teacher would be advised to speak up more while the domineering teaching would be counseled to soften and teach more from the heart. It is in just the same way a student that is hypermobile in the knee would be instructed to microbend the front leg in Trikonasana while a student that is stiffer would be instructed to straighten the leg (align the bones).


You're completely correct Gordon.

Though I hope that the icon that preceeded my post ensured that you know I was joking...
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-04-30 11:46 AM (#84653 - in reply to #84644)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


mishoga - 2007-04-30 9:27 AM

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!


Hey Mishy: Is that why you carrying that perfume spray bottle in your hand? (avatar).
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mishoga
Posted 2007-04-30 1:00 PM (#84660 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students



Expert Yogi

Posts: 1738
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Location: right where I'm supposed to be
Aromatherapy does wonders for swamp butt!!!

Eau De Tookas

Edited by mishoga 2007-04-30 1:17 PM
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yogabrian
Posted 2007-04-30 7:06 PM (#84681 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


Mish,

Perhaps it's time you had a frank talk about the wonders of Fiber, digestive enyzmes and probiotics. Not an easy conversation to have as most people have lots of issues about colon talk. But farting everytime you come to class is just gross.

I used to have a student who did this and after class I suggested a regular use of fiber, enymes and probiotics. During the conversation, the student admitted to have terrible colon issues. Since he started his colon routine, he now longer rips nasty ones during every forward bend!

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tourist
Posted 2007-04-30 7:13 PM (#84682 - in reply to #84681)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students



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Do you suggest s specific regimen, Brian?
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yogabrian
Posted 2007-04-30 8:51 PM (#84690 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


Tourist,

I do. As the average american diet is lean on fiberous foods, I generally recommend the following.

1. Drink more water.

Most my members don't drink nearly enough water and suck down coffee or sodas during the days. This is murder to the instestines and will slow your digestion alot.

2. Add fiberous veggies to meals.

I am often shocked at how many of my members, dont' eat veggies! If they do, generally is it carrots, lettuce or such. Kale, collard green, chard or cabbage are great steamed with a little olive oil and really high in nutriants.

3. Drink fiber and digestive enzymes. (not metamusal)

It really is amazing how many people have bowel issues. Many are constipated or the opposite. By takes some fiber with non-acidic juice, with some probiotics, digestive enzymes and flax seed oil will do wonders for for your digestion.

4. Eat yogurt

The old fashioned kind, no sugar! Yogurt is great for those with acid reflux, kills the fire quickly! Also helps replace the good bacteria in your intestines.

Cleaning the colon will also make yoga much easier! Clean body is a very happy body! All this stuff can be found in your local whole foods!
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shalamOM
Posted 2007-04-30 9:09 PM (#84692 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


Many people who have irritable bowel syndrome actually do terribly with lots of insoluble fiber. I grew up with hippy health conscious parents and only was given whole wheat bread and ate plenty of vegetables/beans. I had terrible gastrointestinal problems my whole life until I discovered (thanks to a book) that I was eating too much insoluable fiber all these years. Now the bulk of my diet is soluble fiber like that found in various skinless potatoes, freshly made white bread, peeled fruit, rice etc. The results were immediate...no more gas, diarreah, bloating, or cramping. My belly is flat and my skin cleared up too (I mentioned that in another post).

Edited by shalamOM 2007-04-30 9:11 PM
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yogabrian
Posted 2007-04-30 9:51 PM (#84707 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


That's what the probiotics are for!
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tourist
Posted 2007-05-01 12:05 AM (#84721 - in reply to #84707)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students



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I am also amazed at how few veggies people eat. No wonder we are always sick... I will just add one thing. Yogurt (the real stuff with no sugar - if you hate it, you are probably buying zero fat stuff Buy good stuff and don't fear the fat!) is great for heartburn. Heartburn and acid reflux are not synonymous. Trust me - I know this! Just like headaches and migraines are different animals - again, BTDT If you have serious reflux, yogurt will help and it is ok to eat a bit of it, even late at night. But it takes more than yogurt to quell that fire
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Posted 2007-05-01 12:08 AM (#84723 - in reply to #84555)
Subject: RE: Obnoxious students


Very sound stuff from Brian here. Listen up!

On caution as it relates to intestinal issues. There is not a hard and fast rule. It is what a food does in your body. For some, spicy foods create the tapas for digestion. For others it is bad news.

Other than the probiotice, which I mention ONLY becasue I have not taken them and connot speak from personal experience, the recommendations are right on.

In the Purna Yoga scheme it is three fold; Hydration, Oxygenation, and an Alkaline state.
Food combinations are also overlooked frequently. We simply do not knwo how to eat well and we've desensitized our taste buds with refined sugars so we can't even get a good taste from the things that are good for us. Yikes. I blame it all on Dubya.
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