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Location: London, England | Hi Glenda,
Yes, the hypermobility mat only be spinal-and the spine may not even be mobile-but the theory is that there is a flush of hormones which makes the spine temporarily hyper-mobile. So what you are seeing now may be a result of an episode that has concluded-only the spine has permanently changed shape.
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| slowpie6 - 2007-04-20 4:22 AM
Hi folks, jumping in because I'm interested in finding out if you think I'm doing my sirsasana properly... I'm especially confused about the involvement of the latissimus dorsi, as I don't know much of anything about this muscle. I've looked up images so I now see where it is located.
Serratus Anterior please.
First off, I have no problem whatsoever in lifting my legs upwards, to me that is the easy part. Can I assume that I am therefore using the proper core contraction and bandhas if this lifting is not problematic?
No you may not.
What proves difficult is maintaining my weight on my arms without putting weight on my head over time. I am currently working on my balance in the pose as practiced without wall support, so I do have an interest in increasing the time that I can stay up in the pose without compromising the proper action of the arms. So here's what happens to me:
Back to the wall. Work the actions. Tinker with the balance there. When the shoulder blades do not lift and spread any longer, set the heels back on the wall and re-find.
When I am up in the headstand, I find that I have difficulty distributing my weight evenly on my forearms, it feels as though the weight wants to stay in the upper end of the forearms (towards the elbows) and not much weight goes into the wrist/hand area. I was informed by my teacher that I need to make use of my triceps in order to press my hands down into the ground, does this seem reasonable? I can't clearly recall if this instruction was given to me with regards to pincha mayurasana or sirsasana...
There is a variety of prep work for this including what some call "dolphin".
I've actually practiced a lot of headstands recently, holding downward dog for extended periods as a way to build strength for the headstand, and as a result of this, I often find that I have serious muscle achiness somewhere beneath my shoulder blades (the only way I can describe this more specifically is to say that it is a soreness that begs to be massaged by digging underneath the shoulder blade). Is this normal, are the muscles under there suppose to be worked strongly in this pose, or are they perhaps compensating for some flaw in the way I practice it? Does this muscle have anything to do with the latissimus dorsi?
Adho Mukha Svanasana, with the improper action, does not prepare the student for Sirsasana. Under the shoulder blade COULD be the serratus as it passes tween the blade and the ribs in connecting the medial border of the scapula to the rib cage.
Namaste.
Edited by purnayoga 2007-04-22 5:03 PM
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| Hi Nick,
I was diagnosed with a mild scoliosis when I was a preteen. I unfortunately was too young to pay any close attention to what my orthopaedist had to say, but I seem to vaguely recall that the curve was of less than 20 degrees. That could be a complete fabrication. I was followed closely for observation only while I was still growing, and I think that ended when I was about 14. I seem to recall that there was improvement, that the curve redressed itself somewhat, if that's possible. Still, I had a full check up about 5 years ago, and the doctor (who did not know me or my history, it was my first and only visit with him) detected the scoliosis again. I had not thought of it since childhood. I am scheduled to get some xrays done to look at my spine and posture in general, which I requested because I wanted to understand my scoliosis better. So I might have more specific details for you if that would be helpful. For now, I would guess that the apex of the curve is around the mid to low thoracic area. It's hard to say from my perspective, but I think it is probably a left curve around L8-9. I do think it is very slight (my yoga teacher thinks it is too slight to even be called a scoliosis), but the associated crookedness is more marked. Other than my left shoulder being lower than my right (maybe an inch or so?), my left lower ribs jut out much further than the right side, there is a very noticeable difference when I do a pose like setu bandhasana (the basic version, supported on the shoulders, not the crown - can't see my ribs in the full ashtanga version, but I'm guessing it's the same). Also, my left shoulder blade is more prominent than my right (I should mention that the muscle achiness/tiredness I feel is underneath the right blade). My hips don't seem to be crooked though.
As for being cautious in headstand. I am. My teachers are also very cautious. They are extremely insistent on not bearing weight on the crown (at least until practice is much more advanced - they are after all ashtanga teachers, so they do teach advanced headstands...) and keeping the head just off the ground to ensure that we are not tempted to do so. I trust their judgement and I definitely know they would not let me do the pose if I were doing it in a way that could cause damage or if I were "structurally" not designed to do it. Case in point: I was once in a led class and as we were doing headstand, the teacher went to a student (he was doing it without wall support too) and tried desperately to make him stop. I had noticed his headstand and I myself, as a completely clueless beginner, was very much alarmed. He was crushing his neck so much that he looked like he no longer had one, and his throat was pushed outwards dramatically. He was clearly applying most of his weight on his head too. The teacher appeared to get quite upset because this particular student didn't want to follow any of her advice and warnings. I'd hate to see what will happen to him if he doesn't quit doing this immediately, but I guess the teacher can't forcibly restrain him to prevent him from doing it...
Anyways, am I hypermobile? Couldn't tell you. That term has never been used to describe me, though I am often referred to by my teachers as very flexible. I don't think there is a joint in my body that doesn't qualify as very flexible, but I'm not sure that makes me *hyper* mobile. Actually, this is not completely true, one of my teachers (after a session of thai yoga massage) remarked that my lower back is less flexible, I think in the backbend direction. I don't have "freakish" flexibility (I'm not "double-jointed"), but I have a large range of motion. Examples: I have always been able to touch my hands to the ground in prasarita padottanasana, I have always been able to do samakonasana (I can even lie flat on the ground on my stomach in this pose - I can't quite lie down on my front leg in hanumanasana though), and in marichyasana C, if I am assisted in twisting deeper, I can twist 180 degrees to face backwards and hold there unassisted (though I can't twist myself that far on my own). I do think that my ankles are hypermobile though, probably related to my flat feet, I've twisted them a lot in my youth, and I can stand on my outer ankles (which, incidently, happens to be very comfortable)... Anyways, you be the judge. Interesting that you see a possible link between scoliosis and flexibility, I always thought it had to do with my flat feet, at least, my mom always said that.
And lastly, my dad bought one of those inversion machines and I was supposed to try it when I visited over the holidays, but I caught a nasty stomach bug from my nephew and being upside down was the last thing on my mind. My father bought it because it relieves him in between chiropractor adjustments, which I understand he gets a lot of. He has very flat feet, wears orthetics to correct them, but still gets back pain because of this problem. I have not experienced any regular backpain, and the times I have, it's because I fell asleep on my awful couch. I'll let you know how it feels next time I go to my father's and try this gadget.
sp |
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| Purna,
I've been strongly advised to stay away from the wall, in fact, I was almost forbidden to use it. However, I practice at a short distance away from the wall, about the length of my lower leg, so that I can fold one leg to touch the wall and adjust my posture that way. I have been admonished, however, to never use the wall as a support anymore. I trust my teachers' judgement, and frankly, my own instincts tell me that I will not learn more by relying on the wall for balance.
As for assuming, fine, I won't. But is it in fact possible to achieve a smooth, slow, controlled lift of the legs into headstand, without any push off the ground, without proper core engagement and bandhas? That was my question, really.
I was instructed, a couple of months ago, to practice the dolphin pose to build up my strength for sirsasana. Another exercise I've done is a pushup type move in downdog, bending my arms, touching my chin to the ground and pushing back up. I've done my homework, but the work is far from over. I continue to practice these to strengthen myself. As for downdog with improper action, well, not sure what makes you assume that I have improper action there... but I get a lot of instruction on this pose, I work very hard on following these instructions, and I am progressing positively. I have been instructed to work on building up the capacity to hold this pose up to 10 minutes - with PROPER action - to build up my strength, in general and in preparation for headstand.
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Location: London, England | "I was diagnosed with a mild scoliosis when I was a preteen."
That's a typical age group"
I unfortunately was too young to pay any close attention to what my orthopaedist had to say, but I seem to vaguely recall that the curve was of less than 20 degrees. That could be a complete fabrication. I was followed closely for observation only while I was still growing, and I think that ended when I was about 14. I seem to recall that there was improvement, that the curve redressed itself somewhat, if that's possible."
Scoliosis is classified as structural or functional-if it's only functional, then the vertebra do not change shape-then you can get an improvement-otherwise, no-you can slow down or retard the progression of the curve, and this is what they tried to do for you.
" Still, I had a full check up about 5 years ago, and the doctor (who did not know me or my history, it was my first and only visit with him) detected the scoliosis again. I had not thought of it since childhood. I am scheduled to get some xrays done to look at my spine and posture in general, which I requested because I wanted to understand my scoliosis better. So I might have more specific details for you if that would be helpful. "
Music to my ears! I spent about two years researching exercise rationale for people with scoliosis, will dig up all my books and notes (I was thinking I might include a chapter in my book on how to design a yoga schedule).
"Anyways, am I hypermobile? "
Judging from the antics that you can do that you then describe, you do appear to be unusual:-)
Are you sure that the machine is a back revolution-I got this one specifically because it is completely different from other inversion machines-there is no basis for comparison. The leg tuck position and the fact that you are hanging off your hips is the reason it is so much better.
Just for your info, when we talk about a scoliotic curve, it's actually a bit misleading. Put simply, imagine the thoracic spine as a hump-back bridge. Because of the curve, if you try to bend the bridge sideways, it twists-this is normal-it's called 'coupled motion.' So the curve seen on x-rays does not tell the whole story.
As you might be able to tell, I like to tinker and invent  I wonder what the effects of training the respiratory mechanics would be in slowing down scoliotic progression, or in helping adults deal with the respiratory diseases that having this condition can make you more prone to. because the ribs are attached to the thoracic spine, is there a chance that respiratory training will actually help to straighten the problem out? I'm convinced that there is a potential for effect, and would encourage you to embark on this-don't wait for science to catch up with proof.
I use a device called powerbreathe-it helps you understand how to create the pressures in ujjayi breathing-everyone should use one if they want to take up astanga yoga. They're a bit expensive, but last forever. Get the athletic version. In fact, if you are interested, wait till I send a link-if you get the wrong one, they're a waste of money.
One thing that comes up again and again in the literature is not to do symmetrical exercise-and lots of yoga, including headstand, might count as exercise that is symmetrical. You could ask your docotrs what they think, but they might not be able to give a right answer-they might never have done a headstand, and therefore are a bit limited in understanding.
Take care
Nick
p.s. am I getting confused, or is it you with the SI problem? |
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| Nick - 2007-04-23 2:13 AM p.s. am I getting confused, or is it you with the SI problem? Nope, that's me! Too funny, 'cause I was just waiting to somehow get drawn back into this thread... No scoliosis here, glad to report. Hypermobile, you betcha. I actually finally got a hold of my x-rays from my old chiropractor, but haven't figured out how to copy them so they'd show up as a picture here, because you can definitely see the slight deformity at the L1-T2 juncture (viewing from the back of the body, bottom left corner of L1 is kinda missing its "corner"). I'm also the one who had surgery on my right shoulder shrink the capsule several years ago because I'd subluxate at the slightest pull on my arm, such a big mistake I realize now, but oh well. Heh, I'm still chuckling at your confusing of who's got what ailment.  |
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| Hi Nick,
I have no clue what the machine my dad has is called, but I'd guess that it isn't the one you are referring to. I cannot, however, invest in any gadget at the moment myself (space is the issue, not so much money, but still...).
It's interesting that you should bring up breath training as I am right now trying very hard to learn to do this under my teacher's guidance. More specifically, it is learning to breath in my middle back (exactly where I think the scoliosis is located) that I've been instructed to do. I am mostly practicing this in dandasana at the moment, and I'm suppose to hold my ribcage muscles (presumably the intercostal muscles) contracted in the same way as one holds in the abs to create a restriction there, preventing the ribcage from expanding and therefore forcing the breath to find new pathways. I am also holding my bandhas when I do this... So in principle, the breath is then supposed to go into the back. At the moment, this is extremely demanding for me, and I need to be quite forceful in the contraction to get anything to work, and even then I feel as though I cannot take a full breath and after a few tries I end up releasing everything and almost panting to catch my breath. This seems to be a big problem for me then, one that my teacher realized and insists on getting me to correct. He expects me to try this throughout my practice, but at the moment it creates too much respiratory distress to maintain it... I'm also supposed to be doing this while walking, which he claims would be the best time to retrain my breathing patterns, but that also is proving difficult. For the moment, the restriction of breath in the front of the torso is excessive, but it needs to be if I hope to force my breath to rediscover the pathways that I've not been using. No matter how hard, I'm not one to give up easily, so I'll get it eventually.
It's my understanding that a scoliosis cannot be corrected (except surgically, which is clearly not my need) once growth is complete, but that doesn't mean that I'm not willing to try harmless practices that could potentially help the problem, such as this breath training thing. I don't much care whether science has validated it or not. I'll look into that other gadget once you track down the link, but I think for the time being I'd prefer to try to learn this through my own unassisted effort, but would be willing to try some "mechanical" aids if it proves to be impossible to learn on my own.
About symetrical exercises... Well, I've thought of that too. I can feel big differences in each side of many poses, and I have thought that it would be best if I worked more (or longer) on the side that appears to be more difficult for me. There's no doubt in my mind that muscles have developped differently to compensate for the skeletal deviations, and in some parts it is particularly obvious. In fact, the muscle that lines my spine at the thoracic level (whatever muscle that may be) is markedly more developped on the left side than the right. Anyways, I don't really follow a "strict" five breath pace in my practice, since I do mysore practice mostly I can adjust based on what feels right to me, and I'm going with the flow of it and trusting my own instincts based on my body awareness. One of my teachers suggested to me that at the moment, I cannot feel the "crookedness" in my own body because it has been compensated for, but that as my practice progresses and my awareness deepens, I will start to feel the crookedness and be able to then work to redress it. I do not feel it yet in most asanas, but I am feeling it in savasana, which is completely new to me, so I think I'm on the right track.
With that in mind, I am thinking the same idea will work with poses that are symetrical, like sirsasana. Since I'm trying to balance and be straight while I am not straight, odds are that my alignment and posture will be somewhat off-center. So while I would agree that practicing in this off-centered way might not be the best idea, having the opportunity to practice this under supervision seems rather like a good idea. I can be adjusted to be straight and properly aligned, and learn to balance that way. This sounds reasonable and right to me.
Actually, this makes me think that my hips are probably crooked too, contrary to what I said before (and no, I don't have an SI problem, that's OrangeMat)... I do not feel any crookedness, but in prasarita padottananasana, my right sitbone is markedly higher than my left, and my teachers usually come to straighten me out... One of them always says "I know this feels crooked to you now, but you're actually straight" - and she's right, when I am straightened, it feels offkilter, but I'm hopeful that learning to define this is the new "straight" will help me develop awareness of the crookedness and then be able to adjust for it.
I'll be sure to post and tell you about my specific diagnosis once I get the results of my scan. Unfortunately, that may be a while yet because I don't have a specialist following me at the moment, but once I get the scans, I'll ask that the GP refer me to an orthopaedist for further analysis and to get advice on this. Thanks for your help and willingness to help me further once I've got more accurate info to provide!
And lastly, speaking of deviations, I apologize to the OP for having hijacked this thread and somehow transformed it into a case study of my crooked spine...
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Location: London, England | Hi Om,
Yes, I realized that afterwards, that I was getting you both confused-in fact, there seems to be a pattern that you both share, and I'm not sure if I'm just inventing that pattern, or whether it actually exists-is it me, or do both your posts turn up in the same threads, because you are both faced with similiar challenges?
I'd like to see that x-ray-I mean, this is exactly what you also see with scoliosis-not that I'm saying you have one, but just that the treatment may be very similiar.
I should really keep a case history file by my desk so I can check people's history's before I answer
Take care
Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Sp,
I hope that my integrity and dedication to providing the best treatment of your condition through yoga practice is evident. I feel pretty confidant that I am fairly well trained in anatomy and physiology. If this is true, then I am going to have to ask you to tell your teacher to bugger off. They have absolutely no clue what they are talking about, and messing around with a scoliosis patient's breathing mechanisms in this ill-thought out exercise is criminal-I expect you could take them to court. They obviously have no idea what constitutes therapeutic exercise, and in my perfect world, would be struck off. I've never heard such a load of baloney as the rational that you gave for this exercise.
What this means is that all the advice I've given is probably useless, because you are going to go back to the class and allow the teacher to carry out these bizarre experiments on you. Why don't you get them to come on the board, so they can expalin to me how they thought up this exercise-I'd be glad to give them my opinion
Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Sp,
Sorry, that probably wasn't the most helpful post-I always get like that when I'm trying to protect someone-you should see me in real life I've decked a few guys who have presneted a danger ot any female I'm with, or am looking out for, which I hope is to my credit, I'm not boasting. If you like, I'll go through exactly why these instructions were flawed, and voutline a suitable breathing regimen for you to follow. In fact, at the end of the day, I think a fair bit of cardiovascular work is brilliant, assuming you have excellent posture. That way you force yourself to breathe optimally, rather than manufacturing a breathing process which is inappropiate for health.
Take care
Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Sp,
Here's the powerlung website:
http://www.powerlung.com/us/en/information/advantage/index.htm?click_id=1309
Like you, I couldn't see the point of getting one-but after I used it for the first time, I realized that I was making loads of mistakesin ujjayi breathing-it's like a piece of apparatus which not only strengthens, but allows you to feel good movement and posture-and it doesn't take up any space
Nick |
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| Nick - 2007-04-23 8:05 AM
They have absolutely no clue what they are talking about, and messing around with a scoliosis patient's breathing mechanisms in this ill-thought out exercise is criminal-I expect you could take them to court. They obviously have no idea what constitutes therapeutic exercise, and in my perfect world, would be struck off. I've never heard such a load of baloney as the rational that you gave for this exercise.
Ouch Nick, that was harsh. I wouldn't mind hearing your rational for all this if you have the inclination to tell me what is so wrong about this. I would also like to add that I have a tendency to badly repeat instructions (and their justifications) when I don't understand them clearly, so it's possible I've misconstrued what this whole exercise is about.
Also, I'd like to say that I don't think I can be considered a scoliosis patient at the moment. I'll be able to state that without doubt when I get the results of my scans, but in my mind a "scoliosis patient" implies more than a small deviation, with attenuant problems. I've got no problems. I've never had regular back pain (or other pain), not before yoga or since beginning practice. As I was diagnosed very young, followed regularly by a specialist, and eventually given a clean bill of spine health, I reason that whatever deviation remains is insufficient to warrant any particular concern. I do know that my teachers are not doctors or spine specialists, but when discussing the subject of scoliosis with one of my teachers (the one who is making me do this criminal exercise), he inspected my spine and responded that if I have scoliosis, then everybody has scoliosis. If the remaining curve measures less than 10 degrees, which may well be my case, then it doesn't usually qualify for a diagnosis of scoliosis from what I understand. Anyways, I guess this is all conjecture until I have the results of my scans. I've not booked my appointment yet, and I am especially busy so I would have waited a bit, but now I think I'll call and book one for next week.
And finally, I don't need you defending me or protecting me, I also am no specialist but I am quite aware of my own body, and I firmly believe that I would recognize an activity that was harmful to me for what it was. And to be quite honest, your point would be better taken if it was less forceful. I don't know you and you don't know me or my practice or my physical condition(s) over and beyond anything I've told you, so you'll have to forgive me if I'm put on the defensive when you "verbally assault" my teachers, who do know me, who have spent countless hours assisting me in my practice and who really do have my best interest in mind. I respect them and trust them, and though that does not mean I think they are above error or not to be questioned, I am not prepared to dismiss their teachings based on an interaction with a stranger online who feels that he can accurately diagnose and prescribe sight unseen. Once I get a professional and personal assessment from a flesh and blood specialist, I'll discuss with them and my teachers the implications of whatever I find for my practice, and make my own judgement.
You also don't need to punch anyone on my behalf, I would not like that one bit.
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Location: London, England | Hi Sp,
Well, I did say in the succeeding post that I thought I had been too harsh, so we're in agreement As a matter of interest, how did the teacher diagnoze the scoliotic curve-did you stand up, with them behind you?
Nick |
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| I've been trying to follow Nick's advice for a couple of weeks but my toes are still glued to the floor. It's PVA not Superglue now, but they still won't lift. Any tips?
I've attached a pic of today's efforts. It's not easy to set a self timer when you're upside down I can tell you!
Ian
 (Headstand.jpg)
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 Headstand.jpg (82KB - 35 downloads)
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Location: London, England | hi Ian,
Afraid I can't really comment-this isn't the way I do or teach headstand-maybe one of the other teachers can give you advice.
take care
Nick |
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| Hey Ian,
Point your toes!
Your back could be a little straighter and this would bring your hips more over the shoulders. Maybe even a little pass your shoulders. (don't lose the strength in the arms, very little pressure on the top of the head)
I think you could try tip-ups. Let your hips come forward and lift the legs just a few inches and then back down. You might use your toes a little to create a little bounce.
When I have trouble with a posture, I try to look at it like it is meant to be. That I'm just not ready to receive it. A strong indicator would be the quality of your Prasaritta Padottanasanas.
Also when going from updog to downdog, let your shoulders dip down a little forward pass your shoulders and feel the lift of the legs over the toes. It's that same lift. Try it with socks on a wood floor.
Eric
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| ian****er - 2007-05-09 3:22 AM
I've been trying to follow Nick's advice for a couple of weeks but my toes are still glued to the floor. It's PVA not Superglue now, but they still won't lift. Any tips?
I've attached a pic of today's efforts. It's not easy to set a self timer when you're upside down I can tell you!
Ian
Ian: Are you that Ian who is in Wash DC now? In that case, I shall be seeing you soon. Otherwise:
- this is really a question for respected Nick.
- but from my side, keep the knees straight. If you bend them, the feet will always go to the Mother Earth!!! |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| ian - the photo is not at a good angle for me to see this - are your elbows shoulder width apart? They look wide to me, but it could be the angle.
You need to lift your back more so it isn't rounded (your photo is not "bad" in any way. This is just the direction to work in) and you need to lift the legs from the very top inner groin. I can't do this yet, so good luck with it! Also, if you are brave you can try belting your legs together with 2 or 3 belts. It apparently makes the lift much easier. |
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| Could someone tell me, in 200 words or less please, what the enormous preoccupation with entry into Sirsasana is all about? I've not seen so much pomp and circumstance about an asana entry before. No one is asking "oh my god, how do I lift my foot in Vrksasana" or even "what do I do with my thoracic spine in Setu Bandha".
The effects of the pose are not delivered in the entry itself. What's the deal? |
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| Nick - 2007-05-09 2:49 PM
hi Ian,
Afraid I can't really comment-this isn't the way I do or teach headstand-maybe one of the other teachers can give you advice.
take care
Nick
Hi nick,
Do you have a photo of you (or a student) demoing headstand the way that you teach it.
From your previous threads I'm really interested to see the differences.
Jonathon |
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| purnayoga - 2007-05-10 7:54 PM
Could someone tell me, in 200 words or less please, what the enormous preoccupation with entry into Sirsasana is all about? I've not seen so much pomp and circumstance about an asana entry before. No one is asking "oh my god, how do I lift my foot in Vrksasana" or even "what do I do with my thoracic spine in Setu Bandha".
The effects of the pose are not delivered in the entry itself. What's the deal?
Yes, that's one of the (very few) things that frustrate me with Iyengar Yoga. Sometimes we can spend longer getting into the pose than we actually spend in it....
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Location: London, England | Hi Jonnie,
Will see what I can do. considering the spinal cord runs through it, and the rest of the body turns around the movement of the neck, it's not hard to see why people are asking questions-in fact, they would be fools not to.
Nick |
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| Thanks mate,
I'd appreciate that.
I think I follow your written explanation, though to be completely sure, a picture would really help.
Jonathon |
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Location: London, England | Sure thing,
The only difference is that the hands are squeezed together, not palms separate. from there its palin sailing
Nick |
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| It's seeing the position of the head and how far it's of the ground that really interests me. |
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Sirsasana
