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| Greetings,
I teach primary series and have a student who likes to add his own gymnastics to his practice. For example, after he took a class with Dharma Mittra where they did forearm balance as part of every vinyasa, he know does that in my Astanga class. As you can imagine, this is quite distracting for me and for the students. Any advice on how to manage this student?
Namaste |
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| flexybendy - 2007-04-08 7:46 PM
Greetings,
I teach primary series and have a student who likes to add his own gymnastics to his practice. For example, after he took a class with Dharma Mittra where they did forearm balance as part of every vinyasa, he know does that in my Astanga class. As you can imagine, this is quite distracting for me and for the students. Any advice on how to manage this student?
Namaste
Advice? What advice? You must make a rule that each student including a world famous teacher must obey you in your class. If they do not want, they have to quit. I test this in my Teacher Training by purposefully challenging my TT that way. |
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| Explain the necessity for unity and harmony in a class practice versus one's home practice. Once illuminated, this student should care enough to follow along with the class and not distract or beg the others off path with his practice variance (assuming said variances are not modifications done in relationship with the teacher).
Edited by Sam Skara 2007-04-09 12:59 AM
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| basicly, what neel said.
typically, when teaching a sequence--whether predesigned by someone else or made on your own--the sequence is specific for a reason (known and unknown reasons). thus, it is important to inform the student that this is a thought-filled process, and while you honor what the student has learned from other teachers and via other sequences, that it is inappropriate to practice those additions while in class not just because it is distracting to other students, but also because it is important to that student's working with the sequence, their physical, energetic, and spiritual development with and through that sequence. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
    
| This is a symptom of the confusion between class and practice. It is something I stress to experienced students as a wonderful reason to start a home practice - you get to do whatever you darn well please, including chew gum. listen to music, stop halfway to move the laundry to the dryer (my personal favourite  ) and add or modify poses to your heart's delight. In class you do what I tell you to do  |
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| I had a very similiar circumstance when I first started teaching. The student appeared to have a very advanced practice whereas I did not. I was a bit torn at the time whether or not to respond from my nature or from my learned Bikram-persona. The luxury of Bikram and doing two sets of each asana allowed me to first compliment him on his similiar posture but then to encourage him to try our style for the second set and assess the difference. It worked for a while. After class I again complimented him on his practice but explained that with my having a number of new people in class, it was confusing for them to listen to my dialogue and observe his asana. I did encourage him to come back if he wanted to practice Bikram.
That experience brought very good lessons to me. First I decided that I had to teach from my own heart and not the mind of my teacher. Second, I decided that I would never be closed off to another teacher or another style of yoga or the benefits either could bring me. I also decided to start a journal which I titled, "What my students taught me today." |
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| Great & wise guidance from all--something that will come up for us all at one time or another. The mature attitude in explaining the reasons is an important aspect. Open classes have the teacher/student and provider/customer dynamic going on--problems could result if not deftly handled. |
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| Hmmm, so I have a couple of questions:
1) sometimes the teacher puts us in child and sometimes I just don't like to fold my legs that way; so I do "down dog" instead.
2) sometimes when we are doing "bridge" I push up into backbend to get a bit "deeper". Is it bad to do that?
What about modifications in class where some students CAN'T do the pose (e. g., some very overweight students couldn't do down dog; I put them in "child" instead).
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| ollie - it is fine with me if you do those poses and your teacher is happy with you doing those poses. But for me, if I am teaching dog pose, I need students to do dog pose or something much closer to it than "child." I also feel most overweight people have an awful time breathing in that pose, especially with arms along side the legs rather than stretched out. Students who can't do downward dog get half uttanasana with hands on the wall, ledge or table.
As for bridge, assuming you mean setu bandha sarvangasana, it is energetically VERY different from a backbend, so this may or may not be appropriate in the sequence you are doing. |
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| tourist - 2007-04-09 6:20 PM
ollie - it is fine with me if you do those poses and your teacher is happy with you doing those poses. But for me, if I am teaching dog pose, I need students to do dog pose or something much closer to it than "child." I also feel most overweight people have an awful time breathing in that pose, especially with arms along side the legs rather than stretched out. Students who can't do downward dog get half uttanasana with hands on the wall, ledge or table.
As for bridge, assuming you mean setu bandha sarvangasana, it is energetically VERY different from a backbend, so this may or may not be appropriate in the sequence you are doing.
Ahhh, the problem of student teaching. The reason I chose "child" is that Yogafit teaches two basic type of sun salutes in it's level 1 training; mountain, lunge, down dog, plank, chattarunga, up dog, down dog, lunge, chair, mountain
and mountian, lunge on one knee, child, plank off of the knees, lower to cobra, up to plank off of the knees, child, lunge on one knee, mountain.
So we were doing the sun salutes and I gave those who were struggling to do the second sequence.
But, I'd love to learn how to teach the "half uttasana".
Backbend vs. "bridge": that came from one class that my teacher and I went to where he called "bridge" "half/bridge" and gave us the option to go into "full bridge" (backbend) instead.
Thanks for the tips; I am learning something around here!  |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Oh yeah - all the "flow" stuff... Well, you know my take on that - learn the bleeping poses first!    I guess you could take people to just hands and knees instead of downward dog? Honestly, if they can't do dog pose, I would be very, very hesitant to have them do any kind of vinyasa....
Half uttanasana is just dog pose turned up a bit. Hands on a surface, walk back until feet are under hips, and all the same actions as dog pose. Have them go higher (if hands are on a wall) for tight shoulders and hamstrings. Many folks are just fine with hands at shoulder height. |
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| I only skimmed the responses and my take seems to be different. I say honor your body and your practice. I assume that when he's ripping out his master asana, it's inline with what you're teaching, just in full expression of the asana. Not only does it teach other students to let their own egos go, (not to mention the teacher's, eh?) but it shows them what practice can lead them to. I have no problem ever with someone lettin' it rip. I even say that in my pre class chat from time to time.
I learned this in a training. We were all showing an asana for the class. The gal before me kicked ass and took names on a particuclar pose. I joked that I was going to have a hard time following her. She said, "if I had not done that, I would not have have been true to my practice". Since then, I have a very open mind about people taking asana farther than I cue it. |
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| I'm going put forth the following concept relative to the pose doer and ego etcetera.... then I'll 1, 2, 3 Ollies questions...
The ego is released (or checked) with a particular method in the body of knowledge called yoga. That method is Svadhyaya. Svadhyaya is introspection; a journey to meet your true self in the central channel of the body. It is through this method, through the process of intrinsic reference that the ego can be managed. When the mind takes reign and the practice becomes extrinsically referential (by the student doing a different pose then the rest of the class) it is then the the ego rises. The ego dwells in the mind. The mind attaches to those things "out there" and then evaluates "how am I compared to those things out there". This is the very embodiment of ego. {end concept}
The student not "liking" the pose needs to be explored more fully. That's not a very comrehensive "reason" and so there's more to be revealed. And as the teacher you're the "revealer". So on this front it's not enough data because then every student whim, every personal preference, every minor snit, every blockage, every osbtacle then warrants another pose.
However, if the student says "my knees hurt" then prop them in such a way that they can still get the benefits (some) of the pose but not be in pain (have their knees hurt). If they say "I can't breathe in the pose", then prop them so they can breathe, and still get the effects of the pose.
Now this assumes that one is sequencing and teaching with efficacy in mind. Some do not. Perhaps many do not. The poses are put together for reasons (in a Purna classes) and so we want to provide the tools (effect) for every person in the safest way we can. This means while the class is doing headstand you are not doing Balasana. I realize in some systems this is a base camp of a pose. It is not used that way in our teaching. So some of this very response will be irrelevant to you.
This leads me to number two. The effects of Urdhva Dhanurasana are different than Setu Bandha. At very least the cervical spine is NOT moving toward the throat chakra in Setu Bandha but rather having the pose pour into the throat from the front body and dwell there, stimulating the endocrine system. Therefore you moving into Urdhva is only you depriving you of your own maximum benefit. Choose. You are not going deeper. You are actually going shallower and this violates Asteya, one of the yamas which outlines non-stealing. You, however, are stealing from yourself which no one should care about but you should care about a great deal:-)
And this takes me to point three which is "students who cannot do the pose" for one valid reason or another. This is fine. No student should be forced or coerced into doing a pose they can not do. This is when the student and teacher have a dialogue and the teacher determines a variation, modification, or substitute pose. If Adho Mukha Svanasana is the pose of choice a student gets no Adho Mukha benefit in Balasana. Rest, sure. Calming, sure. But that teacher is disabling the student from ever doing the pose (unless they magically find it on their own). However, that same student brought to the wall (as Tourist outlines) can develop the "right" actions in the pose and begin to build. Sure there's little or no inversion benefit but the safe AMS actions can be found there.
I hope this helps Ollie.
ollie - 2007-04-09 2:11 PM
Hmmm, so I have a couple of questions:
1) sometimes the teacher puts us in child and sometimes I just don't like to fold my legs that way; so I do "down dog" instead.
2) sometimes when we are doing "bridge" I push up into backbend to get a bit "deeper". Is it bad to do that?
What about modifications in class where some students CAN'T do the pose (e. g., some very overweight students couldn't do down dog; I put them in "child" instead).
Edited by purnayoga 2007-04-10 3:55 AM
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| Yes, this does help. What it also explains is that I simply don't know enough to be a good teacher at this time.
Still, I'll sub when needed, and be willing to practice with friends.
Off for my morning class....
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| ollie - 2007-04-10 5:31 AM
Yes, this does help. What it also explains is that I simply don't know enough to be a good teacher at this time.
Still, I'll sub when needed, and be willing to practice with friends.
Off for my morning class....
Now, dont you say that. I have high hopes for you. And, Subbing is more difficult than teaching your own class. And, all that Mathematics you do is much more difficult than Teaching a Yoga Class. You kidding! |
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| kulkarnn - 2007-04-10 7:29 AM
ollie - 2007-04-10 5:31 AM
Yes, this does help. What it also explains is that I simply don't know enough to be a good teacher at this time.
Still, I'll sub when needed, and be willing to practice with friends.
Off for my morning class....
Now, dont you say that. I have high hopes for you. And, Subbing is more difficult than teaching your own class. And, all that Mathematics you do is much more difficult than Teaching a Yoga Class. You kidding!
But no one has ever hurt their back by trying a math problem that was too hard for them. |
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| But, I am sure that Math helps doing Yoga Poses correctly, rather than Yoga helping Math, as advertised wrongly. You will correct all this mess. |
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| you all are much kinder then I. I hate to beat around the bush. I would tell the person to know it off. If it is an ashtanga class, do ashtanga, if it is a Bikram class do Bikram. Otherwise do your own practice at home. 1 person not coming to your class and respecting the teacher should not make or break you. |
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| Perhaps it's not kindness but rather the teacher maximizing the learning opportunity for the student.
There are 100 ways to deal with that chap in class. And all 100 may work. But which one is chosen (by a teacher that is, not by an average paserby) should give the student the most chance of learning.
Edited by purnayoga 2007-04-10 12:03 PM
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| tourist - 2007-04-09 6:20 PM
ollie - it is fine with me if you do those poses and your teacher is happy with you doing those poses.
actually, she gets irritated with me from time to time but puts up with it.
Well, sometimes she gets onto me; for example: I hate using props. I never pick them up from the equipment room. This morning she had us start in corpse and she made a point to bring me props and said "just in case you need them" and gave me a "knowing smile".
After reading this thread and the responses, I'll just do whatever she says, so long as I am not aggravating an injury.
Students who can't do downward dog get half uttanasana with hands on the wall, ledge or table.
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That is EXACTLY what my teacher told me this morning. There I was trying to figure out what to do based on my weekend's worth of training and the advice here, and then I realized: "why don't I just ask MY teacher, who knows me (in terms of yoga) better than anyone else"?
She then demonstrated it for me.
The mini thread on how to respond to the student is interesting. As a math instructor, I've never felt the need to "tell off a show-off"; the distance between me and the undergraduate students is just too great, (most of the time).
But when it comes to yoga; I don't know. The issue is whether the person is being disruptive to the rest of the class or not, I suppose?
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| purnayoga - 2007-04-10 3:38 AM This leads me to number two. The effects of Urdhva Dhanurasana are different than Setu Bandha. At very least the cervical spine is NOT moving toward the throat chakra in Setu Bandha but rather having the pose pour into the throat from the front body and dwell there, stimulating the endocrine system. So this statement got me thinking... would Setu Bandha be an appropriate substitute for Salamba Sarvangasana due to the energetic effects? Granted, it's not an inversion in the technical sense, so those benefits would be absent there. But for someone who has trouble keeping proper form in Salamba Sarvangasana (even with sufficient salamba-ing), could Setu Bandha Sarvangasana, followed by an inversion such as Viparita Karani, be an adequate replacement? The reason I ask is that there was a thread here recently about someone having trouble getting their hips over their head to start in Halasana, then lifting to Sarvangasana. THEN I injured my low back (lingering SI instability issues, don't ask) and couldn't do the same myself. Sure, I could get my feet on the wall and then walk up to a truly supported shoulderstand (knees bent, feet still on the wall), but still the pressure was too much on my SI. Lowering the angle didn't help. Bridge was pretty much all I could manage, and a low one at that (forget about resting my sacrum on a block, too uncomfortable even when I'm not injured or out of alignment). So my compromise was to split up my shoulderstand between bridge and legs-up-the-wall. Makes sense in theory, doesn't it? |
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| Whether what you suggest is an appropriate substitute or not would depend, by my way of thinking, on your actions and alignment in Sarvangasana with the feet at the wall. You say it was too much for the sacrum so I would want to see your body in that pose to verify it was not your action or alignment that was creating said SI discomfort.
If your SI was that flared you would be doing a lower back sequence while others did Sarvangasana. The SI stability, in my mind, trumps or takes precedence over the benefits of Sarvangasana (in the scenario you present). So I would be working more directly with your SI issue. Once it's shifted to a more Yin state of being, over time, then we would revisit Sarvangasana/Setu Bandha etcetera.
OrangeMat - 2007-04-10 2:28 PM
purnayoga - 2007-04-10 3:38 AM ...The effects of Urdhva Dhanurasana are different ... So this statement got me thinking... would Setu Bandha be an appropriate substitute for Salamba Sarvangasana due to the energetic effects? Granted, it's not an inversion in the technical sense, so those benefits would be absent there. But for someone who has trouble keeping proper form in Salamba Sarvangasana (even with sufficient salamba-ing), could Setu Bandha Sarvangasana, followed by an inversion such as Viparita Karani, be an adequate replacement? The reason I ask is that there was a thread here recently about someone having trouble getting their hips over their head to start in Halasana, then lifting to Sarvangasana. THEN I injured my low back (lingering SI instability issues, don't ask) and couldn't do the same myself. Sure, I could get my feet on the wall and then walk up to a truly supported shoulderstand (knees bent, feet still on the wall), but still the pressure was too much on my SI. Lowering the angle didn't help. Bridge was pretty much all I could manage, and a low one at that (forget about resting my sacrum on a block, too uncomfortable even when I'm not injured or out of alignment). So my compromise was to split up my shoulderstand between bridge and legs-up-the-wall. Makes sense in theory, doesn't it?
Edited by purnayoga 2007-04-10 7:07 PM
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| Purna, thanks for your reply. But I think I inadvertently asked a double question, of which I believe you only addressed the second half. The first was this: as a substitute for shoulderstand (regardless of the reason why we'd want a substitute), could you have bridge instead, since the energetic actions on the throat chakra are similar? Thanks. |
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| my preference is for feet-up-the-wall and/or viparita karani with a blanket under shoulders/neck, a cushion/bolster under hips, and feet up the wall.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| OM - yes, setu bandha sarvangasana is considered to be an excellent substitute for sarvangasana. Of course purna's concerns are also important. Viparita karani or legs up the wall are also fine, and often people with SI issues really love them. I have actually had Mr. Tourist (who just found out he has some arthritis in his SI) just doing legs up the wall but his actual yoga teacher had him in viparita karani and he loved it. |
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Need advice
