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 Urdhva Dhanurasana questionModerators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 2 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Yoga -> Iyengar Yoga | Message format |
kristi |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 475 Location: canada | haha, my fav. pose. i've had a love affair with this pose for a looooonnggg time. i get it on most days though,  and bruce i'm sure you realize that most of this pose is about the openness in the shoulders and hips mostly. in this pose and all backbending for that matter, i believe i was taught to INHALE on the way into the back bend; the opposite for forward bends, i.e. exhale into the posture. i can't imagine it any other way. | ||
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| kristi |
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| Nick |
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  Location: London, England | Hi there, I used to teach Iyengar yoga, and I seem to recall the instruction for most backbends, including urdvha dhanurasana, to inhale on the movement into each posture. I don't know if this has changed. Exceptions might be postures such as handstand, scorpion, etc. If I might add something, it is that the obvious aim of inhaling is to elevate the ribs and therefore, hopefully, to extend the thoracic spine. Inhaling also helps to pressurize the abdomen with the downward movement of the diaphragm, so creating a pneumatic cushion which prevents the lumbar spine from hyper-extending. But most physiologists agree that inhaling actually has the capacity to flex the thoracic spine-because of its normal curvature, the intake of air actually presses the curve outwards-the thoracic spine is flexed. Exhaling has the opposite effect. So, I would submit that perhaps when people find an exhale helps, it is because they are using the action to help extend the thoracic spine. When an inhale helps, perhaps it is because they are using the rib elevation to help move the shoulders into a better position, or because of the low back protection that is gained. This is obviously a vast simplification, but hope it helps. Perhaps the inhalers can learn from the exhalers, and vice versa  Nick | ||
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442   | The definitive Iyengar answer is "never always."  And, to add to the confusion, Prashant Iyengar's dictum "how you do the pose depends on why you are doing the pose." Gotta love the enigmatic yoga teacher talk! In fact, I believe I have been taught this pose both ways, but as Nick described, for most people, for most days, exhaling on the push up is probably best. People do get hung up on the teeny, tiny details of Iyengar instruction and that is a big trap. I have been to workshops where students share notes afterward and go back to teach or practice exactly how it was taught that day, throwing out the "old" way entirely and parroting back this "new" detail or style. This is not how BKS wants us to practice or teach. We need to know the principles and rationale behind each way of doing a pose so that we can practice intelligently and not become parrots or "point collectors" as Geeta Iyengar calls it. There may be very good reasons to teach this pose with an inhalation and if you understand them, this would be how to do it. Heck, I am thrilled that people practice this! I haven't ever loved this pose and with a sore shoulder, it looks like it will be a long time yet before I can do it again. | ||
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| kristi |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | In Iyengar classes this is in the third syllabus, I think. We teach it in a chair in Level II, reaching back toward the floor, then in Level III they go to the push up. Yes, it can be very invigorating! And really nice if you do your practice in the morning. Tough to teach backbends later in the evening as it takes time to warm up and time to quiet the nervous system enough to sleep later And aren't you the lucky one who can "discuss" yoga with your spouse! I'll bet there are a few people here who are envious of that  Mr Tourist and I never argue about yoga, although last night when I was half asleep and he decided to tell me every single pose he did at class nearly got him in a bit of trouble  Eh! After 30-odd years (some of them odder than others...) you know how to pick your battles | ||
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| joscmt |
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My husband won't even entertain the idea of yoga! Every now and then I'll show him something new I learned, other than that.... no chance..  Oh well, to each their own!  | |||
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| kristi |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | The odd times never stop, they just change Many of the things that we were at odds about 30 years ago are non-issues now. We have learned to accomodate quite a few of the personal oddities And now that the kids are gone (but both home for the long weekend! A rare and wonderful event) we have separate bathrooms - don't know how we survived all those yers sharing one | ||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi all, Reasons to inhale as you push up? Inhaling makes the diaphragm descend, which increases the intra-abdominal pressure (IAP). Inside the abdomen are barometric pressure receptors. If the IAP rises, the pressure receptors turn up the amplitude of nervous impulses to all the skeletal muscles. The 'whole-body tension' rises. This can be very helpful in providing strength to lift up. Additionally, with the inhalation, the position of the shoulder joints is buttressed by the elevation of the rib cage-and maintaining good shoulder position is essential in learning this posture. The IAP increase can also have the effect of acting as a 'pneumatic cushion,' preventing the lumbar spine from hyper-extending. It has also been theorized that the diaphragm muscle can have an effect on the action of the psoas muscle-the fibres of each muscle interdigitate (that is,'meld'), so that tension in the diaphragm will create tension in the psoas. As it is psoas which should be a primary muscle to stretch with urdvha dhanurasana, it may be that 'taking hold' of the psoas with the diaphragm helps to make the origin of psoas (on the lumbar spine) a fixed point. This means that the insertion of psoas on the femur is then free to move-you can stretch the muscle by extending the hip joints. Many backbends are fraught with pain for many students because they do not learn how to follow this principle. What then happens is that the psoas tension serves to hyper-extend the lumbar spine-the insertion of psoas becomes the origin, and the origin becomes the insertion. Then the hips aren't extended, and the posture becomes less than optimal. I think I mentioned once before that the best help I ever got with this posture was by doing it on a ramp-probably about 45 degrees, feet at the bottom end, lie down, knees bent and hands by shoulders. The reduction in forces created by gravity make this posture feasible for many. And anyway, if you cannot do it on the ramp, you will probably make a complete hash of it on the floor. You will also be able to define your movement more easily, and perhaps spot bad movements of different parts of your skeleton, and be able to do something about correcting them. On the floor, the tendency is to give up, because it's too much of a struggle. For the more ambitious , you can do drop-backs-again, the ramp can make this very feasible. Every yoga studio should have one-or two. And a rack and some cages. Take care Nick | ||
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Location: London, England | |||
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| fechter03 |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 475 Location: canada | yeah, what nick said, | ||
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Location: London, England | |||
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Nick - 2007-04-12 12:43 PM I've mentioned about pressing the tongue to the roof of the mouth before, so I won't go into it here, [...] No need to "go into it" | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Om, No way of describing it without going into it . TUTALC is the acronym used to describe the correct action-tongue up, teeth apart, lips closed. "The rest position of the tongue, often referred to as the postural position, is with the first half of the tongue against the hard palate of the mouth. TUTALC is the functional rest position that should be taught to the patient." (Therapeutic exercise-moving towards function-Hall and Brody). I think you might be getting your terminology a bit confused, because I don't think that any action of the tongue is going to have any effect on the palate-they touch each other, but they aren't in touch or it may be that if you experiment, you can often find an improvement-I often find that varying the pressure of my tongue can help with movements, especially lifts such as handstand-probably partly because of the huge input to the central nervous system from the tongue and face. Nick | ||
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| OrangeMat |
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Nick - 2007-04-12 3:30 PM I think you might be getting your terminology a bit confused Ya think? LOL! OK, when I think to myself "draw the throat back", I get an overall relaxed feeling wash over me, probably that central nervous system effect you mentioned. What physical part am I drawing back? I have no clue now. Yes, it's not the palate, sorry about using the wrong term. Where the jaw connects to the skull under the ears, I experience a subtle hollowing back there, as well as the bottom of the jaw dropping slightly back and down. I also feel a subtle release at the base of my skull (occipital area, I suppose). Feel free to fill in with the technical terms as you see fit. So you're saying (indirectly and probably unintentionally, but still) that if I maintain that "drawing back" feeling I won't have so much fear washing over me when I attempt my inversions? I have to admit, I pay no attention whatsoever to my upper body (shoulders, jaw, ribcage) when trying to hold an inversion (forget about getting there, don't even ask); all my efforts go to keeping my core and legs strong and SI stable. OK, one more thing to layer in! | |||
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| dmbones |
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Nick - 2007-04-09 12:44 AM Hi all, Reasons to inhale as you push up? Inhaling makes the diaphragm descend, which increases the intra-abdominal pressure (IAP). Inside the abdomen are barometric pressure receptors. If the IAP rises, the pressure receptors turn up the amplitude of nervous impulses to all the skeletal muscles. The 'whole-body tension' rises. This can be very helpful in providing strength to lift up. Additionally, with the inhalation, the position of the shoulder joints is buttressed by the elevation of the rib cage-and maintaining good shoulder position is essential in learning this posture. The IAP increase can also have the effect of acting as a 'pneumatic cushion,' preventing the lumbar spine from hyper-extending. It has also been theorized that the diaphragm muscle can have an effect on the action of the psoas muscle-the fibres of each muscle interdigitate (that is,'meld'), so that tension in the diaphragm will create tension in the psoas. As it is psoas which should be a primary muscle to stretch with urdvha dhanurasana, it may be that 'taking hold' of the psoas with the diaphragm helps to make the origin of psoas (on the lumbar spine) a fixed point. This means that the insertion of psoas on the femur is then free to move-you can stretch the muscle by extending the hip joints. Many backbends are fraught with pain for many students because they do not learn how to follow this principle. What then happens is that the psoas tension serves to hyper-extend the lumbar spine-the insertion of psoas becomes the origin, and the origin becomes the insertion. Then the hips aren't extended, and the posture becomes less than optimal. I think I mentioned once before that the best help I ever got with this posture was by doing it on a ramp-probably about 45 degrees, feet at the bottom end, lie down, knees bent and hands by shoulders. The reduction in forces created by gravity make this posture feasible for many. And anyway, if you cannot do it on the ramp, you will probably make a complete hash of it on the floor. You will also be able to define your movement more easily, and perhaps spot bad movements of different parts of your skeleton, and be able to do something about correcting them. On the floor, the tendency is to give up, because it's too much of a struggle. For the more ambitious , you can do drop-backs-again, the ramp can make this very feasible. Every yoga studio should have one-or two. And a rack and some cages. Take care Nick Nick, This is excellent! Thank you. Michael | |||
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