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| Dear Brother BG:
Thanks for the clarification. Actually, I had misunderstood you, but now that I understand you and you do not know what I misunderstood, I shall keep you in the bliss of ignorance. As for the videos, I mentioned them to support Shalom's original statements which many seemed to oppose. |
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| iyengar yoga instructors DO and SHOULD come up with their own sequences. there is nothing wrong with occassionally using a sequence of IYENGAR's that has inspired you, but, it is an immature teacher that would only use old iyengar sequences.
in fact, this goes against IYENGAR's teachings. it is a living, evolving tradition. some of what was once taught is no longer taught or is approached differently.
part of the brilliance of the system is sequencing, and an iyengar teacher should certainly be able to do that AND to teach and change depending on the students that come to them, NOT be stuck in a cookie-cutter formula. |
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Extreme Veteran
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| BKS is certainly a master of asana. He is incredible. However, check out the many chinese acrobats,shaolin monks,russian acrobats,Indian contortionists,olympic gymnasts.. Some shaolin monks can do what Iyengar does and run on a wall, then get speared without any ill effects. It is all to easy to get bogged down with how to look good in a posture. Buddha asked of his followers to be themselves and there are so many buddhist monks around the world.Surely, yoga is deeper than gymnastics and following a teachers instructions? |
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Expert Yogi
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| vibes - interesting thread to resurrect. I am not sure if you have brought anything new to the conversation.
Iyengar yoga has nothing to do with gymnastics, though gymnasts may make use of it. Alignment principles are there to a) make the poses safe for the sadhaka and keep the body healthy, as well as, b) remove blockages and impediments to the flow of prana. This will facilitate and make safe the body and nervous system and enable the sadhaka to practice the so-called "higher" limbs of yoga safely and optimally. |
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| Iyengar's commentary on the Sutras of Patanjali is excellent. Whereas others may add and invent more of their own meaning, Iyengar seems to stay close to the original text of sutras. And they are not originally meant to be warm and cuddly and easily digestible.
I like very much Desikachar's "The Heart of Yoga" too, but compare for example Iyengar's and Desikachar's commentary to the sutra nr. 1.37 "vitaraga vishaiam va chittam". |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
I'm very fond of Desikachar's commentary.
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Veteran
Posts: 258
| There is often discussion about how BKS Iyengar is mastering and performing the asanas himself…There is also discussion about whether his precise alignment rules are right or wrong. And the same about the sequences he is proposing.
But Mr. Iyengar is not important only because of the above.
There are two other very important aspects in his method that are not that often mentioned:
a) His meditative approach to the yogasana practice.
i.e. the fact that he teaches that we should be practicing hatha yoga NOT just as gymnastics, but with full consciousness and awareness all over the body, from top of the head, until down to the little toes and from the outer skin to the deeper marrow of our bones.
And
b) The extremely important and useful idea of the use of props.
No matter how well Iyengar can practice and perform the asanas himself… it seems that he cared also about how common persons, elder ones, non-flexible ones, disabled ones, etc. etc, can also do these asanas and benefit from them !!
My above note was not to defend BKS Iyengar but myself (and any other Iyengar student who might feel the same). Because the term “worshiper” implies a blind, kind of religious, dedication to a person and to this person’s teachings and promises... (which was exactly what kept me, personally, away from hatha yoga for many “lost” years of my life.) I think that most Iyengar practitioners are not this kind of worshipers, but are just persons who have benefited by hatha yoga practiced in the Iyengar way.
As for the caring only for the physical body… Ancient Greeks were saying: “nous igyis en somati ygies”, meaning “there can only be a healthy mind in a healthy physical body".
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Extreme Veteran
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| What Iyengar alignment principles are right? and why? we should ask. Is whats right for one person different for antoher is another good question to ask? |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | You can't ask that question Vibes, it doesn't apply. Alignment of the human body is the same in every BODY - the Map, the Anatomy is the same. However, every body is different in the way that they have evolved, developed..whatever...this is where the props come into play and a teacher comes in handy,  |
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Veteran
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| >>>>>>>>What Iyengar alignment principles are right? and why? we should ask. Is whats right for one person different for antoher is another good question to ask?
Yes vibes, I totally agree that we should be asking these questions!
But these questions do not arise on a theoretical level.
They arise ON the mat, while practicing with consciousness.
And on the mat we find the answers.
The “right” answers, that may be different for each one of us, depending on the little differences each one of us has. But all these can be found on the mat if we practice with alert, self-observing consciousness.
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| I think that it is important to differentiate between following Iyengar and following Iyengar methodology. The first is trying to be some kind of cult member. The second is learning to use and using a valuable tool.
Iyengar has shared his personal insights with the world. Some of them are useful and some of them are not. Use the ones that are useful for you. Modify others to fit and ignore the rest. Same with Astanga, Bikram and all the others.
Iyengar has made mistakes and so will we. (Like teaching shoulderstand with the back of the neck on the mat for years.) The important thing is that we have a methodology that discovers both what is right and what is wrong; what is right and wrong at this point in time for our unique mind/body/spirit.
Following anyone (including yourself) does not allow for the flexibility neccesary for self discovery. To discover, you need an open mind and a free spirit.
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Veteran
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| a rightly put and conclusive answer Jim, thanks.
By the way,
>>>>Iyengar has made mistakes and so will we. (Like teaching shoulderstand with the back of the neck on the mat for years)
Was it not Iyengar who “invented” the use of a prop under the shoulders in shoulderstand, so as to prevent the neck vertebrae damage ? I thought it was him, but could be that I had misunderstood my teacher speaking in English in class
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| Yes, it was Iyengar who realized that the commonly accepted way of doing shoulderstand was potentially harmful for people's necks. His mistake, which he later corrected, was teaching the pose for many years without some type of modification to relieve the stress on the back of people's necks.
My point was simply that nobody is infallible and the most important thing is awareness and an open mind so that you can recognize problems and fix them rather than blindly following an authority (in Iyengar's case Krishnamacharya).
We should not follow Iyengar, but rather follow his example. He took the yoga practice that he learned and further developed it over time based on his own personal experience as a practitioner and as a teacher.
Edited by jimg 2010-03-18 2:26 PM
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| This forum will be a nicer place if participants preach less, use forum as a place for sharing experiences, perhaps some self-reflection, and allow others to response by sharing their experience but in a non-judgmental way. Kindly reduce, or better, cut out the word "We should", this is not a school, there is no need for authoritative figures here. However, the administrator do have a responsibility to warn new comers of practices that may potentially be harmfull. e.g. warn person experience chest discomfort after yoga practice, to immediate stop practice and see a doctor instead. Namaste |
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| antaraayaah
Thank you for your (hopefully well meaning) input. Why do I feel as though you just told me the "I should" not use the phrase "we should"?
Namaste,
Jim
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| Jimg - yes you are totally right in reading my thoughts! I am not a science person, did they say "for any action there is an equal reaction"?, why/what you received from me must be that reaction, slightly different format.  Namaste |
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| Are you sure that is not hypocritical? Telling someone not to tell others what to do? Or are you cleverly illustrating your point?
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| Jimg - I am a sincere person, but you are free to form your opinion. However, I do hope (I did not say you must) you hear and observe the subtle messages from the universe that comes on an on-going basis. Namaste
Edited by antaraayaah 2010-03-20 12:09 AM
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Veteran
Posts: 258
| come on…
it’s not necessarily authoritarian to say “we should”.
Some people may know more things about a subject, some may know less, some may be trained/experienced teachers, others may be just beginners, it’s not bad to give or to get advice.
Most of us here are against authoritarianism (at least…I presume/hope we are), but let’s not take it to the other end and not accept even the opinion of those who might know something better.
In other words… the “subtle messages from the universe” should(oh!  ) be: PEACE BROTHERS 
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| Kristi - Jimg (repeatedly) said Iyengar made mistakes by teaching shoulderstand without support; shoulderstand was practiced without support for thousands of years, and still is practiced without support in many parts of the world. How it has become Iyengar's mistakes? just because Jimg said so? and "we should" agree? I as a reader do not learn or benefit from messages like this, fortunately I was not angry and knock my head against the wall.  Namaste |
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| antaraayaah,
Shoulderstand without support can stretch the ligaments of the back of the neck causing significant damage. Pressure on the back of the neck can also rupture the discs between the vertebrae and compress the cervical spine. People have done many stupid or dangerous things in the past and still do, that does not make them a good idea. Just because hate, racism and war have historical precedent does not mean that they are good. I pointed out the shoulderstand thing to illustrate that famous yoga teachers, no matter how revered, are not infallible and are human and prone to mistakes just like the rest of us. If shoulderstand without support (or other modification) is not a mistake, then why did Iyengar feel the need to modify that pose? If you ask physical therapists what the most frequent yoga injuries that they treat are, they will almost always say neck injuries from unsupported (or unmodified) shoulderstand and headstand and knee injuries from forcing the knees into excessive rotation.
If I teach something that is unsafe and someone injures themself, yes, that is my mistake as a teacher, regardless of how old the tradition.
Nothing is true because I say it. Nothing is true because Iyengar said it. Nothing is true beacuse it is in an old book. Nothing is true because it is part of an old tradition. Nothing is true because it is the latest finding. Please don't believe this to be true. Beliefs are beliefs, not truth.
What happens if you start viewing beliefs as working hypotheses as long as they work and discarding them when they no longer work?
I am sharing ideas. If you don't like them, great. They may be helpful for someone else. They may also be worthless, but just because you don't agree doesn't mean that someone else won't find them useful.
Namaste,
jimg
Edited by jimg 2010-03-20 12:21 PM
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| Jimg - I understand the part of your post about safety, that is also the reason why Iyengar design the various props, do you use the props to teach your student? When you do, do you give credits to Iyengar? Back to our discussion, you use the "mistake of not using shoulderstand support earlier" as proof Iyengar is not infallible, and thus should not be blind following/worship, in the first place, have you met anybody worship Iyengar like a god? Next, if a Iyengar teacher who could not surpass Iyengar with a more thought through sequence, is using Iyengar's sequence equate to blind following/worship with no independent mind? I get the feeling you felt the world of yoga is filled with dirt & dark clouds, and your insights bring lights, tell me if I am wrong. Namaste |
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| The world of yoga is filled with a lot of misinformation and superstition. Questioning minds are always welcome. If nobody ever questioned anything, we would still be living in caves wearing animal skins with the animals still in them. |
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| antaraayaah,
I did not start this thread and am not against Iyengar (who I've never met) in any way. He set an excellent example by questioning a lot of things and coming up with props and other inovations. He has also spread his understanding and experience of yoga and yoga technique worldwide, bringing yoga to millions.
Since you asked for examples: I have been to Iyengar classes that routinely started with praying to Patanjali, followed by a reading from Iyengar's works (exactly like reading from the Gospels in a Christian church) as if his words were somehow sacred. I have also known yoga teachers and practitioners who quote Iyengar verbatim as an answer to every question and have shrines with his picture in their homes. That sure seems like worship to me. It sure doesn't strike me as independent thought or understanding. (This is not only true of Iyengar students/teachers, but also most other schools as well.) Stand on the shoulders of giants, don't grovel at their feet. (Note that I did NOT say "we should")
Especially in our increasingly materialistic, stressful and non-physical world, I think that yoga is too valuable for too many people for it to sink into warring cults, each group defending their savior against the others. Yoga is still developing and I think it is important that we all share and work together to encourage this evolution, instead of impede it.
This is why I encourage people to follow Iyengar's excellent example of questioning and evolving instead of blindly following Iyengar dogma, or any person's dogma.
Namaste,
jimg |
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| when i describe my teaching style, i often say "alignment principles based on Iyengar." i am very much in love with alignment. i find that experimenting with iyengar's instructions in his books, what i was taught by iyengar teachers, and so on to be very valuable. but in the end, it is really "based on" and not "Iyengar alignment."
this is not to say that i am way cooler than others. this is not even to say that i am the most super awesome teacher ever. i admit, i am pretty awesome. but not super-amazing awesome. either pretty awesome, or somewhat amazing.
anyway, end of the tuna sandwich (or day if you prefer), i really like what iyengar does. and, he's got a nice smile. and he's an old man. and i love old men. it's weird, but i do. |
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Iyengar worshippers
