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| Iyengar is no doubt an impressive figure in yoga...I've learned probably more from Iyengar's books than any other source. But what I will never understand is the worship of Iyengar that some yogis partake in. One successful instructor I know never changes the sequence of poses from Iyengar's sequences because she feels he has already come up with perfect sequences....It's like she thinks he got his info. straight from G-d himself. As talented and wise as Iyengar is, I don't agree with everything the man says or recommends. As a person who is focused on finding the safest postions for my students and myself, I seek information from multiple sources including myself. People study Iyengar's alignment principles and repeat them verbatim and just assume they must be correct....but are they? Iyengar started teaching yoga when he was just a teenager...and much of what he knows comes from himself and his own experiences, not memorizing someone else's words and just being a passive 'conduit'. I don't know what it is about yoga, but it seems to attract people who are all to ready to give up their independent mind only to replace it with some guru's ideas. Sometimes I wonder if I'm too independently minded to be a yogi, but I believe deep down that my students will benefit from the fact that I question and explore.
Edited by shalamOM 2007-03-24 12:00 AM
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| shalamOM - 2007-03-24 7:57 AM
But what I will never understand is the worship of Iyengar that some yogis partake in. One successful instructor I know never changes the sequence of poses from Iyengar's sequences because she feels he has already come up with perfect sequences....It's like she thinks he got his info. straight from G-d himself. As talented and wise as Iyengar is, I don't agree with everything the man says or recommends.
Hi Jessica,
This certainly doesn't reflect my experience of Iyengar Yoga at all.
Infact one of the things that I like about Mr. Iyengar and his system of practise is that there is no 'cult of personality' involved and that he actively encourages his students to think for themselves.
Which of his teachings specifically don't you agree with?
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Location: London, England | Hi there,
I have to agree with Shalom-I've had that impression off so many Iyengar teachers. And ytou are right-his rules of alignment are so wrong. This is not my opinion-it's fact.
Nick |
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| That does it Porucznik. You're off my Christmas card list  |
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Location: London, England | Hi Jonnie,
Rats! There are exceptions And I also reckon that there's even more PKJ wannabes in the astanga tradition.
Nick |
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| Count yourself lucky that us Iyengi's are a peaceful bunch.
Looking at some of the responses to criticism on the Bikram thread, if you were talking about him they would have burned your house down
Jonathon |
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Location: London, England | jonnie - 2007-03-24 1:31 PM
Count yourself lucky that us Iyengi's are a peaceful bunch.
Looking at some of the responses to criticism on the Bikram thread, if you were talking about him they would have burned your house down
Jonathon
hi Jonathon,
is that so they'll have somewhere warm to practice?
Nick |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| jessica - which sequences does this teacher use? I have never been given specific sequences to teach - just the syllabus along with an understanding of sequencing that I am expected to know and implement on my own. Most sequences that my colleagues bring back from Pune are so atypical to the way we usually teach, we would be hard pressed to be able to explain or justify the sequencing on our own. And that is key to our teaching - if we do not understand the sequencing, we should not teach it.
BKS is adamant that we do NOT copy and emulate him and I am told that anyone who has had teaching from all 3 Iyengars that they are each so individual and different in how they teach that there is no "Iyengar style" at all. And I have certainly felt that from the various very high level Iyengar teachers I have studied with as well as all the local teachers. |
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| i have found in my practice that his alignment and modification principles are correct and functional for a variety of people with a variety of needs.
that said, i do not teach in an 'iyengar' way, but i do teach according to iyengar principles of alignment and technique. i find them most functional. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | I certainly don't think that all Iyengar teachers rigidly follow sequences handed down from Pune. No doubt that some Iyengar students and teachers regard Iyengar as their guru -- that's why he is sometimes called "Guruji". The traditional relationship of guru and student has strong elements of respect, devotion, and submission. I've observed that to be a more personal thing, however, not a teaching practice. Nick -- Can you be more specific about Iyengar alignment principles that "are wrong" ? I'm not sure what you mean. ... bg |
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Location: London, England | hi BG,
I'd submit that the alignment that is often demonstrated in Iyengar yoga (and I think every form is prone to this), which states that it is the correct alignment for that posture, bears no resemblance to the principles of good alignment that are used to increase an athlete's sporting prowess, nor bears any resemblance to the principles of using exercise for its therapeutic value.
Perhaps if you choose a posture, put a pic on this post, and I'll see if I can illustrate what I mean with some practical pointers.
Nick |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 475
Location: canada | wow, all this talk of strict sequencing almost felt like i was lost in an ashtanga thread,  |
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| Dear ShalOM:
Namaste. There is NO doubt a truth in the statements you have made in the original post. And, it is fact that some IStyle students have added other elements and even deviated from or even left that style. However, as you yourself wrote, you have to understand that:
BKS has spent a life time effort in alignment and such. Moreover, he has demoed those poses in his own body and there is NO question that there is NO other comparison to be made as far the Poses are concerned. If there is : Show me. And, you can not. Now, I personally feel that a) it has something to do with dedication to asanas, with extreme effort, etc. b) and his interest in those exercises, and alignments etc.
So, those who are interested in the above elements shall take him as GOD.Why not? He is the best in those elements in their opinion. And, only then they will be able to reach that level of dedication.
Now, I agree with your statements that those who try to copy or go verbatim, shall loose their creativity. And, I have myself seen some of the world famous (in Asanas ONLY) teachers have LOST that creativity.
But, that is their choice. And, they are happy with that. And, they feel they are achieving the mind coordination etc. So, no one else can ask them to change.
However, you can make your point that doing such and such shall exclude other benefits etc. You can not change those who are devotees.
And, you shall find one surprising thing since you brought up this topic of questioning and enquiry: Those who claim to be enquiring and questioning, a very small percentage of them have reached anywhere. They spend most of the energy in questioning and not in practicing.
ETC. |
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| Sorry Shalom: I want to add more.
If you have seen Swami Sachidananda of Yogaville. His devotees worshipped him much more than what BKS devotees do. They lay flowers where he walked and they washed his feet, etc. And, why not? They actuallly feel GOD in him.
And, some feel the same in Idol of Shree GAnesha, and some in that of Vishnau, and some in their own father or mother.
Who are others to ask them to change?
But, others can give their opinion without criticising them directly. That is what I feel. |
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| all of my teachers have been very adamant about not taking anything they say to be true without trying it first ourselves.
and whereas it certainly is nice/vital to have guidance (whether it is from Iyengar lineage or otherwise) i attribute most of my progress in practice of yoga (asanas and otherwise) to my own dedication and experimentation.
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while still being very devoted to my teachers.
i certainly don't advocate blind faith, but devotion is a large part of yoga, hm?
it is not a large leap in my mind to believe that the work of BKS Iyengar could have impacted someone's practice to the extent that they are, in fact, devoted to him. but i would also be interested to see what that person had to say about their personal practice.
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| I laughed so much while reading the few first posts I guess I'll be added on Johnnie's Christmas cards list... 'cause I agree with what he said; and with what Tourist exlained.
Iyengar alignment advice actually helps tremendously. One's practice takes a completely different colour and the way I understand it, it creates a strong base on which we may add any block (i.e., any style, tradition) with ease. It also helps with aches and pains: consistent wrong alignment creates aches and pains, when you get aligned, these aches disappear. It also helps you protect yourself against injuries.
Worshipping any teacher says something about the person who decides/wants to worship. You may meet people who worship Mr Iyengar, you may meet people who worship anybody with a robe, a beard ... long hair. What to do ?!
In the Iyengar training, I never felt that we were told to believe anything Iyengar says; on the contray the advice is to question every aspect and try it for ourselves, feel it for ourselves, understand for ourselves.
One advice we got during a yoga sadhana, a few months ago, from a teacher who is a direct student of Iyengar and has spent several years at he school in Pune: "If you do the pose for me, to please me, it is ego and it will stop you from any progress; do it from your heart". This advice he got from Mr Iyengar himself and he passed it onto us.
One thing remains important though: respect. Being respectful. That is it.
Thanks for the thread
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| Dear Cerise and similar ones:
I disagree with you. What you stated is true abot Posture. Can you say the same thing about other things such as Philosophy? |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Neel - I am not sure I understand your last question... I do know that yoga philosophy can be and is debated endlessly and that there will always be different opinions of how it is interpreted. This has been going on for millenia and likey will not end with the current generation.
I have heard teachers who are dedicated students of BKS (for those who are new - many of my teachers have studied with him since the 70's) say that they have been reprimanded by him for repeating instructions verbatim or giving a sequence or particular pose for an injury only because they have seen or heard him do it. I think the primary thing BKS would like us to emulate is the years of dedicated and consistent practice. If we did nothing more than that and perhaps take care in our alignment so that we don't hurt ourselves, he would probably be happy. Not that making him happy is any kind of goal to have  |
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| tourist - 2007-03-25 11:30 AM
Neel - I am not sure I understand your last question... I do know that yoga philosophy can be and is debated endlessly and that there will always be different opinions of how it is interpreted. This has been going on for millenia and likey will not end with the current generation.
I have heard teachers who are dedicated students of BKS (for those who are new - many of my teachers have studied with him since the 70's ) say that they have been reprimanded by him for repeating instructions verbatim or giving a sequence or particular pose for an injury only because they have seen or heard him do it. I think the primary thing BKS would like us to emulate is the years of dedicated and consistent practice. If we did nothing more than that and perhaps take care in our alignment so that we don't hurt ourselves, he would probably be happy. Not that making him happy is any kind of goal to have
Dear SisTourist: Now that it has come to that I must state it bluntly what I meant in the above:
It has two parts:
a) If one wants to learn asanas, alignment, developing one's own ways within the context of IY style of asanas, IY asana class is great.
b) If one wants to study Philosophy IY class is minimally useful.
If one wants to know this by experience, they have to attend my class on Philosophy, including all the
Senior Most teachers of IY style, and BKS himself included.
But, I still bow down to BKS as my teacher. |
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| And, if one wants to get an idea of what Shalom is trying to say:
Watch the Yoga Journal Conference on Light on Life videos.
And, if one wants to get an idea of what I am trying to say:
Watch any of the 16 DVDs on Yoga Sutras of mine.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | kulkarnn - 2007-03-25 6:32 PM tourist - 2007-03-25 11:30 AM Neel - I am not sure I understand your last question... I do know that yoga philosophy can be and is debated endlessly and that there will always be different opinions of how it is interpreted. This has been going on for millenia and likey will not end with the current generation. I have heard teachers who are dedicated students of BKS (for those who are new - many of my teachers have studied with him since the 70's ) say that they have been reprimanded by him for repeating instructions verbatim or giving a sequence or particular pose for an injury only because they have seen or heard him do it. I think the primary thing BKS would like us to emulate is the years of dedicated and consistent practice. If we did nothing more than that and perhaps take care in our alignment so that we don't hurt ourselves, he would probably be happy. Not that making him happy is any kind of goal to have Dear SisTourist: Now that it has come to that I must state it bluntly what I meant in the above: It has two parts: a ) If one wants to learn asanas, alignment, developing one's own ways within the context of IY style of asanas, IY asana class is great. b ) If one wants to study Philosophy IY class is minimally useful. If one wants to know this by experience, they have to attend my class on Philosophy, including all the Senior Most teachers of IY style, and BKS himself included. But, I still bow down to BKS as my teacher. Hmmm.... you sound a lot like someone I did a workshop with... |
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| Dear BG:
The fact is that : I wrote exactly what the fact is according to my experience of 30 years. And, i am open to clarify, discuss, debate to the last point. However, saying, 'I sound likexxxx' does not help at all in the discussion.
If you disagree with a particular point, ask me. |
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| most asana classes are really not great for philosophy in general.
the classes that i've been taking recently have no depth--not even in asana. it's really just a babysitter to take you through the sequence, followed by a single 'inspirational quote' at the end of class--and OM and beginning and end of class. so, certainly not a place where i would learn philosophy.
now, most of the philosophy studies that i have done have been in classroom settings at universities or by my own study and contemplation of texts. very few people teach yoga philosophy--and so it is difficult to learn in this context. but, by having texts available to us, it gives another opportunity.
but the only way that philosophy can make sense--whether we get it from a book, dvd, cd, or in a classroom--is by contemplation and application. otherwise, it's just intellectual knowledge.
just as one can have good intellectual knowledge of poses, but no real understanding of it. |
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| Sorry for jumping in again without waiting much. I donot know whether dear ZB wrote in response to my postings above. But, since English is my second langauge, I thought I shall make my points clear 'second time'!!!
1. I myself learnt asanas directly from BKS himself for 6 hours a day for 5 months. So, there is no question in my mind who BKS and how he is. I know he is a great asana teacher and practitioner, and researcher, and inventor, and genius. I have no doubt about that.
2. Also, I am not stating that considering someone god or godly or authority is bad. I myself shall choose BKS over almost anyone else I know in the field of Asana. And, I shall be fanatic about that.
3. However, I am stating that what dear Shalom said is true. And, what Shalom said is not an imagination. Shalom did not dream of it. It is the experience. And, it is also my common experience that she is correct. I also gave one example of watching videos which are totally from IY style and they prove that point. What is the harm in accepting the fact?
4. Now, I stated that Philosophy is minimally taught in IY style classes. That is also a fact. Now, what is IY style. Read the definitions anywhere on that. What is Integral Yoga Style of Swami Sachidananda. Read definitions of that. What is Shivananda style. Read definitions of that. And, you shall get one part of the answer. There is no question that Iy style deals mostly with alignment, etc. and that is NOT philosophy.
5. Now, I disagree that Philosophy is not learnt in classes. And, it is learnt mainly by contemplation, etc. yes, practice and contemplation apply to any field to get experiential knowledge. That applies to Physics and Chemistry which are material sciences, as well. But, there is something called Philosophy and there is something called instruction related to that. Now, since some people think one should not cite one's own example such as I did, let me give the following for you to ponder over:
- Study the life of Swami Vivekananda (I hope you agree he was a greatest and realized yogi), study thelife of Gautam Buddha if you are Buddhist oriented, study the life of Yogi Arabindo of Pondichery, of that of Swami Sachidananda (Integral Yoga style), and that of Swami Shivananda or Vishnudevananda (Shivanada Yoga style), etc. And, then make a pie chart (Ollie. Please help. Is that the correct chart in Math?), and compare asana, breathing, philosophy, worship, etc. instruction. And, you shall find that Asana is NOT always the major part of it.
- Thus, I feel that Shalom and myself made valid points. And, if someone feels bad due to that, they prove Shalom's point even stronger.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | kulkarnn - 2007-03-25 10:19 PM Dear BG: The fact is that : I wrote exactly what the fact is according to my experience of 30 years. And, i am open to clarify, discuss, debate to the last point. However, saying, 'I sound likexxxx' does not help at all in the discussion. If you disagree with a particular point, ask me. Yes, I was being a bit cryptic b/c I don't care to reveal the teacher in question. Let's just say that this person also knows the teachings of BKS well. I fully agree with your other comments -- BKS is a master of asana, unparalleled within my limited experience. On philosophy, I'm not especially fond of BKS's teaching. His commentary on the Sutras lacks the warmth, immediacy, and clarity of the commentaries of Desikachar and Satchidananda, for example. As ZB mentions elsewhere, philosophy is only useful in so far as it applies to real living (was John Dewey right?), and it is for that that I value the two commentaries just mentioned. Regarding the videos at YJ that you mentioned, I looked at them, but they are simply a famous old man entertaining his devoted followers. I don't think that they measure fairly the full scope of what he knows or has done during his lifetime. ... bg |
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Iyengar worshippers
