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| It is said our view of external world is a manifestation of our internal world. If we are fearful internally, our external world will be manifested with demons and evil spirits, the same objects are intepreted differently by another person. Do give a thought how it comes to you as the practices you mentioned are intepreted as "cults" or "superstition". Photo on the wall. Do you display photos of your love ones at home, looking at them brings a smile to your face ? If someone look upon Iyengar as their beloved teacher/parent/grandparent dear to their hearts, seeing his face brings forth love, beautify and motivation, isn't this a good pratice and not a superstition? Chanting helps to rest my monkey brain so to focus / concentrate on the present task. My chants has been a verse from the yoga sutra that speaks out on the day. The chants you referred to may have the same calming/centering effect on the practitioners, but it is annoying to you, hence a "cult" practice? When you keep telling people to have an opened mind, yours are closed towards these practices that are useful to others. You need not participate, but you do not need to have such adverse reactions towards these practices which cuases burning fire in you. "Protecting yoga" is a unhelpful thought, let go of it and be free. I hope you see what I mean. Namaste 
Edited by antaraayaah 2010-03-22 6:37 AM
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| antaraayaah,
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
I define superstition as belief resulting from ignorance (flat earth or astrology), belief in magic, and beliefs based on a false conception of causation. For example, if I chant OM (or whatever) and I feel calmer, is it because OM is a magic word or because a short inhale followed by a long exhale relaxes the mind and the body? I think that that is a very valid question, regardless of the answer.
I define misinformation as facts that are objectively false or information that is falsely presented or misleading. A good example is the often repeated "Yoga is 5000 years old". The "evidence" for this is a seal found in the 1920's with a picture of a man sitting cross legged that was found in Harappa that was dated to be about 4,500 years old. Some people have supposed that this person was practicing yoga. Although this is remotely possible, it is highly unlikely as there is no further "evidence" of yoga for over a thousand years. Also, archeologists have found similar depictions of men sitting in this position from approximately the same time in southern France, northern Italy and Scythia and nobody assumes that they were practicing yoga. In fact, this cross legged posture was how tribal chieftains sat (and often still do in many cultures) when people came to see them.
A photo or picture in a special place of any authority figure, whether the President, the Pope, Krishna, Jesus, Mary or whatever is worship. I was not criticizing, just pointing out a fact. (I saw an interesting thing in Italy. A restaurant had a picture of Mary and a crucifix side by side and a photo of a soccer player above them.)
When I see a class where the teacher was brought up in the Lutheran tradition and then runs a yoga class that exactly mirrors a Lutheran church service, I can only conclude that this is certainly worship to that person. And yes, it is annoying to me to attend and pay for a yoga class and then get someone's personal worship service. I don't consider this a cult although it may be for that teacher.
I do not feel that I am protecting yoga. Protecting yoga would mean that there is something that exists that I wish to keep the same. I want to encourage yoga practitioners to experiment and innovate, learn new things, remove the myths, further refine the practice, differentiate between tradition and truth. Why do I want to do this? If we all learn new truths and share them, we all benefit. I take a very scientific approach to yoga and I feel that we have a long way to go in yoga as well as scientific discovery. To me, for example, Patanjali is a pioneer, not a savior; a starting point not an ending point. This is my point of view. Others have different points of view. The free and open sharing of contrasting points of view is a healthy thing and has historically led to more peace, prosperity and innovation.
There are many people who present the more orthodox view of yoga (which is a lot newer than most people think) on this forum. I think that people benefit from seeing that there are also other points of view.
Why are you so defensive about what I write? I have never challenged you personally. (I think that you interpreted my saying in another thread that the lack of doubt is a hallmark of religious fanatics and the insane as somehow my attacking you. That was meant as an illustration of the dangers of not doubting, NOT a personal attack on you. If you felt as though I was attacking you personally or saying that you are a religious fanatic or insane, I apologize.) Maybe I have challenged some of your beliefs, but I consider that good and I appreciate your challenging my beliefs. Whenever we challenge our beliefs, we grow.
You may be interpreting my very direct, somewhat aggressive and sometimes pompous writing style to mean that I have a "burning fire" and adverse reactions to what other people do, think or believe. (My wife often tells me that I put everything too strongly. I live intensely and I enjoy life that way.) I don't agree with a lot of things for me personally, but that does not mean that I have any way of knowing if these things are not a crucial part of another's evolution. I nonetheless appreciate you encouraging me in self reflection. Thank you.
Namaste,
jimg |
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| i think that yoga has existed before asana took hold as being the major form, and that yoga is a part of the vedic culture. is the vedic culture at least 5-6000 yrs old?
is this a spin off?
for my own part, i do live in a magical world in a lot of ways. i believe in archetypes, therefore fairies exist. i have noted that those of us born on July 11, regardless of year, seem to have very similar personality traits, even though we are different ages, sexes, nationalities, etc. it's just plain weird. to me, that's kind of atrological.
but, i also exist with a lot of doubt. i mean, i question a lot of stuff, and i also don't question a lot of stuff. sometimes, i just want to do and be without doubting. i just want to do and be. 
i don't have any pictures of anyone in my house. is that strange? we have them on the computer and we are also making a book for hawk so he can look at his grandparents often. we are living very simply. we really only have a bed and dresser right now. the table we bought broke--so we are waiting to fix it. we don't have tools. a friend is going to help.
that's pretty magical to me. friends. |
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| The oldest Vedas are commonly thought to be between 3000 and 3500 years old. The earliest uses of the word "Yoga" had to do with warriors literally yoking their war horses to war chariots and "piercing" the sun, continuing on to immortality if they fought and died bravely. It is still partly in this context that Arjuna is a warrior and there are a lot of war chariot metaphors in the Bhagavad Gita (usually dated between 500 BCE and 100 CE). Asana is in comparison pretty new. The mention of asana in the Yoga Sutras (commonly thought to be between 100 BCE and 500 CE) refers to sitting postures as preparation for meditation and not active poses and certainly not for the purpose of physical fitness per most experts on Vedic and Sanskrit history.
I don't think that you need to believe in magic per se to consider life (or love) to be magical.
Edited by jimg 2010-03-22 7:08 PM
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| zoebird - 2010-03-22 3:37 PM
but, i also exist with a lot of doubt. i mean, i question a lot of stuff, and i also don't question a lot of stuff. sometimes, i just want to do and be without doubting. i just want to do and be.
ZB,
I think that you make a good point here. No doubt often leads to rigidity, mindless repetition and a lack of innovation. Too much doubt can lead to cynicism or the inability to act. A healthy balance is probably best here as most everywhere else.
jimg |
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Extreme Veteran
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| Re: original post. You will go further through exploration and questioning while discovering than just doing like a robot. Even a donkey doesnt just repeat and repeat. Also your students will understand and benefit this way more as they are learning to explore which brings much mindfulness into yoga, which is often lacking in many classes. The body is an extension of the brain so it is of huge benefit to question and explore! |
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Expert Yogi
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| Well vibes, I guess we have all been too busy watching the World Cup and the Tour de France and generally having a life to provide entertainment for you lately. I honestly don't see the need to resurrect a three year old post to get things stirred up. You might want to cut and paste into the Bikram forum and Ashtanga forum and see if you get any bites there. |
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Extreme Veteran
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| Just didnt want it getting stagnant in yoga.com land, so you welcome to paste all you want. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| How about starting something new and not dredging up old stuff? |
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Extreme Veteran
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| Sorry, thought it was yoga.com here.Thought it was about thousands of years old yoga and on this page the old yoga elder Iyengar. My mistake. We should all tell yoga practitioners to get into celebrity keep fit exercises and not to dredge up old stuff like yoga asanas and meditation. You have inspired me- Im going to throw away my old smelly yoga mat now and instead get the latest flat screen tv and tell my elderly chinese neighbour to stop doing funny old daily chi kung exercises in the morning and watch the latest tv shows with me instead.The revolution starts now! |
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| Vibes:- From previous conversations I understand you no longer practice yoga asanas because you do not agree with the effectiveness of stretching and some methods used by Iyengar, Bikram and almost all teachers you have studied with. Perhaps the Chinese methods which focus on slow movements with full awareness will appeal to you? How about join your neighbours in their daily Chi Kung / Tai Chi practice, explore for some time, and share with us your findings? Namaste |
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Extreme Veteran
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| you must have misunderstood. |
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| it is the only explanation |
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Iyengar worshippers
