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Philosophy of Yoga
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tweeva
Posted 2007-04-26 11:54 AM (#84276 - in reply to #84269)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga



Veteran

Posts: 101
100
I see, Neel.
I was just giving a 1 line quotation in anwer to bipinji's question to explain the core philosophy of yoga in 2 lines.
Although there are obvious differences between dance and yoga, "both rivers stem from the same source" (in the Indian tradition) and serve the same purpose (IMHO).
As such, both should be performed with the same "attitude".
BTW: I don't think yoga is just for old people.
Tw
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Bob
Posted 2007-05-05 6:31 PM (#85290 - in reply to #76972)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


Who am I ?
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souljourney108
Posted 2007-05-07 6:14 AM (#85430 - in reply to #77095)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga



Sanskrit:
Deho Devalayo Devi, Jivo Devah Sadashivah
Tyajet Ajana Nirmalye Soham Bhavena Pujayet
Translation:
(Lord Shiva says) O Devi! (i.e. Parvati) This body is temple. The living being inside is Sadashiva (one of the names of Shiva) himself. Renounce debris of ignorance and worship him with "he and I are same (or I am that)" attitude.

Beautiful, thanks Bipinjoshi. Yes, renounce the debris of ignorance.

And 'Who am I'?...beautiful. Also as Ramana would tell people, "Just keep quiet".

Patanjalis sutra2 describes it well for me, as was already mentioned. I even have it tatood on my arm...."Yoga is when the waves of the mind cease"... Yoga citta vrtti nirodaha. I do feel so connected , one with All, in silence, when there is awareness of the activity of the mind and the ability to not entertain the thoughts.

Peace to all,
Soul

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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-05-08 11:01 PM (#85621 - in reply to #85430)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


souljourney108 - 2007-05-07 6:14 AM


Sanskrit:
Deho Devalayo Devi, Jivo Devah Sadashivah
Tyajet Ajana Nirmalye Soham Bhavena Pujayet
Translation:
(Lord Shiva says) O Devi! (i.e. Parvati) This body is temple. The living being inside is Sadashiva (one of the names of Shiva) himself. Renounce debris of ignorance and worship him with "he and I are same (or I am that)" attitude.

Beautiful, thanks Bipinjoshi. Yes, renounce the debris of ignorance.

And 'Who am I'?...beautiful. Also as Ramana would tell people, "Just keep quiet".

Patanjalis sutra2 describes it well for me, as was already mentioned. I even have it tatood on my arm...."Yoga is when the waves of the mind cease"... Yoga citta vrtti nirodaha. I do feel so connected , one with All, in silence, when there is awareness of the activity of the mind and the ability to not entertain the thoughts.

Peace to all,
Soul



Deho Devalayo Devi, Jivo Devah Sadashivah
Tyajet Ajana Nirmalye Soham Bhavena Pujayet

Hey Devi (Parvati), body is an abode (place to live) of Deva (ishwara). And the Jiva (soul, atmaa, spirit) is the Deva Sadaashiva, or the Lord Sadaashiva (who lives in that abode). The ignorance (which is that I am body and mind, that is anything other than spirit) should be reliquished and the Deva inside should be worshipped using the Bhaava (cultivated emotion) that 'I am He" that is "I am Spirit (Jiva)" ( I am not the body and mind).

This is a method of Jnanayoga which immediately as a part of practice discards body and mind and all material universe associated with them. It meditates on Spirit, until it is reached.

----------------

Who am I is a self enquiry and is a different method. In this you are doing enquiry. In the above method, you are assuming that you are the Self and only meditating on it, discarding body and mind.

--------------

yogaH chittavruttinirodhaH... NOT that Yoga is When.

But, Yoga (itself is) nirodha (intentional stopping of) fluctuation of chitta.

In Patanjali, yoga is a practice.

And, when that happens the Spirit abides in its own form. This state is NOT silence and the mind is NOT active. When mind is active it is not Nirbeeja samaadhi.

tasya api nirodhe sarvanirodhan NirbiijaH Samadhi... last sutra of the first chapter.

------------------------------

That is why Proper Translation of Sutras is a must for study.


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souljourney108
Posted 2007-05-09 3:23 AM (#85640 - in reply to #76979)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


kulkarnn - 2007-02-10 3:10 PM

1. Yoga one one hand is the state where individuality is merged into Universality, also called as kaivalyam, samaadhi, moksha, union of atman with paramaatman, shiva-jiva-yuti, etc.

2. And, on another hand, it is the practice which shall utimately lead to the state described in 1.



Hi Neel,
Just thought I'd re-read what you describe as Yoga. Yes, individuality merged into universality. But I wouldn't say it's a 'state'. States come and go.
And yes, it's not 'when', thanks for that.
I think we are picking on words though,and it has to be experienced. In my experience, in silence, in letting go of thoughts, I feel connected to All.Yoga. Being, Presence. Many methods. It's not the method.

Hari Om!
Soul
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souljourney108
Posted 2007-05-09 4:32 AM (#85643 - in reply to #76972)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


Neel,
Could you define Nirvikalpa and Sarvikalpa Samadhi?

Hari Om,
Soul
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-05-09 9:27 AM (#85675 - in reply to #85640)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


souljourney108 - 2007-05-09 3:23 AM

kulkarnn - 2007-02-10 3:10 PM

1. Yoga one one hand is the state where individuality is merged into Universality, also called as kaivalyam, samaadhi, moksha, union of atman with paramaatman, shiva-jiva-yuti, etc.

2. And, on another hand, it is the practice which shall utimately lead to the state described in 1.



Hi Neel,
Just thought I'd re-read what you describe as Yoga. Yes, individuality merged into universality. But I wouldn't say it's a 'state'. States come and go.

===> Agreed. State is the word I could use with my non English background. It does not perfectly depict what I want say. However, I want to say that the above definition I made up in response to Bipiniji's original post. I am not quoting the scriptures here.

And yes, it's not 'when', thanks for that.
===OK.


I think we are picking on words though,and it has to be experienced. In my experience, in silence, in letting go of thoughts, I feel connected to All.Yoga. Being, Presence. Many methods. It's not the method.
===> No. I am giving a proper translation of what the Patanjali Sutra 2 means. It does not have When in that translation.


Neel,
Could you define Nirvikalpa and Sarvikalpa Samadhi?
===> kalpa - property of processing the information. vikalpa - a special ability to quickly process the information which a human mind has. there is another property called 'sankalpa' which is to make a decision to do something. sankalpa and vikalpa are the core properties of a human mind.

In Nirvikalpa Samaadhi - this process is absent. In Savikalpa - it is present.



Hari Om,
Soul
===> I love this signature. HariH OM.. Neel



Hari Om!
Soul
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souljourney108
Posted 2007-05-09 6:58 PM (#85752 - in reply to #85675)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


===> No. I am giving a proper translation of what the Patanjali Sutra 2 means. It does not have When in that translation.


Neel,
Could you define Nirvikalpa and Sarvikalpa Samadhi?
===> kalpa - property of processing the information. vikalpa - a special ability to quickly process the information which a human mind has. there is another property called 'sankalpa' which is to make a decision to do something. sankalpa and vikalpa are the core properties of a human mind.

In Nirvikalpa Samaadhi - this process is absent. In Savikalpa - it is present.


Thanks Neel,
I was inspired by you to re-read the translation of Patanjali sutra 2, by Rohit Mehta...Yoga is the disolutuion of all centers of reaction in the mind. It's good to tell people the correct translation if I am to pass it on.

In Nirvikalpa Samadhi, does that mean that one doesn't 'decide' to let go of thoughts, to stop identifying with thoughts as who one is, it just happens automatically?

Hari Hari Hari Om!
Soul
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-05-09 10:56 PM (#85767 - in reply to #85752)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


souljourney108 - 2007-05-09 6:58 PM

Thanks Neel,
I was inspired by you to re-read the translation of Patanjali sutra 2, by Rohit Mehta...Yoga is the disolutuion of all centers of reaction in the mind. It's good to tell people the correct translation if I am to pass it on.

===> If it is possible, after you study whatever you wish, please read the book: Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, Proper Translation and Chanting by Neel Kulkarni. It has a foreward by Dr. Deviprasad Kharwandikar, a well known Sanskrit Scholar, Grammarian, and Poet. See my website. He asked me to write commentary. But, that is too much work for an Indian guy. So, I made 18 DVDs of speeches given at a course using that book. I am selling them as commentary. One of my student has volunteered to transcribe the DVDs but I am not yet ready for such a huge printing effort. As I like to do all with my own income, no loan or no dependency".

In Nirvikalpa Samadhi, does that mean that one doesn't 'decide' to let go of thoughts, to stop identifying with thoughts as who one is, it just happens automatically?

===> Nirvikalpa samadhi occurs much after Savikalpa Samadhi. In Savikalpa samadhi, a concentration of highest kind is obtained starting with few objects to only one object. Then, in Nirvikalpa, one is able to kind of stop even that form by becoming one with that object. It is NOT letting go and all that simple stress relief technique. It is more devotional. And, that is why I like your signature.

Hari Hari Hari Om!
Soul
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Posted 2007-05-10 12:58 AM (#85781 - in reply to #76997)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


Fine.

Aspire, reject, surrender.



bipinjoshi - 2007-02-08 12:51 AM

purnayoga - 2007-02-08 12:28 AM

Yoga cannot be described.
It must be experienced.


I agree with you. However, it has always been an effort from human beings to express things in words. Even God has been expressed in words (Shabda Bramhan). As the Patanjali's famous sutra says "Tasya Vachaka Pranava". So it is just an effort to express, share our ideas.


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souljourney108
Posted 2007-05-10 7:15 AM (#85804 - in reply to #76972)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


Hi PurnaYoga,

Yes there would be many translations.Many ways to describe the indescribable...


Namaskar,
Soul

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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-05-10 9:00 AM (#85815 - in reply to #76972)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


Relative to the Sutras, do you really believe there is "A" correct translation?
===> Of course. And, that is mine. Why? The answer to why is written in the book.


Yoga cannot be described. It must be experienced.
===> But, something has to be described to start the practice towards experience.

I agree with you. However, it has always been an effort from human beings to express things in words. Even God has been expressed in words (Shabda Bramhan). As the Patanjali's famous sutra says "Tasya Vachaka Pranava". So it is just an effort to express, share our ideas.
===> NO. tasya vaachakaH pranavah ... is NOT an attempt to describe God in words similar to poet trying to explain the feelings. pranavaH is actually the expression of the Ishwara. That means, with NO single exception, each person who realizes Ishwara will know that OM is the one which describes it in word or sound form.

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bipinjoshi
Posted 2007-05-10 11:26 PM (#85922 - in reply to #85815)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


kulkarnn - 2007-05-10 8:00 AM

Relative to the Sutras, do you really believe there is "A" correct translation?
===> Of course. And, that is mine. Why? The answer to why is written in the book.


Yoga cannot be described. It must be experienced.
===> But, something has to be described to start the practice towards experience.

I agree with you. However, it has always been an effort from human beings to express things in words. Even God has been expressed in words (Shabda Bramhan). As the Patanjali's famous sutra says "Tasya Vachaka Pranava". So it is just an effort to express, share our ideas.
===> NO. tasya vaachakaH pranavah ... is NOT an attempt to describe God in words similar to poet trying to explain the feelings. pranavaH is actually the expression of the Ishwara. That means, with NO single exception, each person who realizes Ishwara will know that OM is the one which describes it in word or sound form.



Neel,
I think you are misinterpreting my statement. I am NOT saying that Om is an ATTEMPT to describe God. I said - "Even God has been expressed in words" and you are also saying - "pranavaH is actually the expression of the Ishwara". So I think we are talking the same. I am not saying that one person called Patanjali expressed God as Om. The "effort" above is related to describing philosophy of Yoga and not to Om. In fact we (Kundalini Yogis) experience the relation between 3 1/2 coils of Kundalini and 3 1/2 matras of Pranava much clearly. Sincere practitioners of Yoni Mudra (I am talking about "real" yoni mudra and not the one which just closes gates of the body) will understand what I am saying.

Peace.

Edited by bipinjoshi 2007-05-10 11:37 PM
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bipinjoshi
Posted 2007-05-10 11:58 PM (#85923 - in reply to #85752)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


purnayoga - 2007-05-09 11:56 PM

Relative to the Sutras, do you really believe there is "A" correct translation?

souljourney108 - 2007-05-09 3:58 PM
I was inspired by you to re-read the translation of Patanjali sutra 2, by Rohit Mehta...Yoga is the disolutuion of all centers of reaction in the mind. It's good to tell people the correct translation if I am to pass it on.


I personally never like to say that only one interpretation/translation is correct and the others are not. There are interpretations/translation written by many people and they wrote it based on their experience and understanding. You can have one as your favorite but that in no way to say that others are incorrect or inferior.

BTW: My favorite is by Swami Vivekananda
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souljourney108
Posted 2007-05-11 12:34 AM (#85927 - in reply to #85923)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


bipinjoshi - 2007-05-12 1:58 PM

purnayoga - 2007-05-09 11:56 PM

Relative to the Sutras, do you really believe there is "A" correct translation?

souljourney108 - 2007-05-09 3:58 PM
I was inspired by you to re-read the translation of Patanjali sutra 2, by Rohit Mehta...Yoga is the disolutuion of all centers of reaction in the mind. It's good to tell people the correct translation if I am to pass it on.


I personally never like to say that only one interpretation/translation is correct and the others are not. There are interpretations/translation written by many people and they wrote it based on their experience and understanding. You can have one as your favorite but that in no way to say that others are incorrect or inferior.

BTW: My favorite is by Swami Vivekananda



Namaste and yes Bipin...
that was written in response to Neel writing that there is no word "when" in the translation of that sutra. Yes, i have my favorite also, the one that sets off the understanding. I'd like to read Neels definition of sutra 2 of Patanjali also. I've loved everything I've read by Vivekananda.

Hari Om,
Soul
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bipinjoshi
Posted 2007-05-11 2:06 AM (#85934 - in reply to #85621)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


kulkarnn - 2007-05-08 10:01 PM
This is a method of Jnanayoga which immediately as a part of practice discards body and mind and all material universe associated with them. It meditates on Spirit, until it is reached.



I would not term it merely as Janayoga. It is much more than such a classification. In Tantraic Yoga words such as "Deho Devalaya", "Soham" have profound meaning (sometimes hidden). For example Goraksha explains nicely the meaning of Deho Devalaya in his works. Similarly, many other texts (including Vijana Bhairava Tantra and Goraksha Paddhati) emphasis on Ajapa Japa or Soham sadhana which is an important practice of natha sect. Further the word Pujayet hints at the hidden meaning of "worship" part of Tantra. That's why in my original post I said that these lines beautifully enclose nature, practice as well as goal of Yoga.
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-05-11 9:04 AM (#85961 - in reply to #76972)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


Dear Bipniji, Soul and Purna:
Namaste.

1. As for Bipiniji's comments related to my usage of term 'Jnanayoga': What I wrote there is to distinguish the stated practice in Bipinji's verse from the Self Enquiry stated by Soul. Yes, Gorakhsa and Nathas mixed Jnana with Bhakti with Yoga in a profound manner. However, this particular verse, due to the usage of word SohamBhaavena, indicates discarding any other bhaava-s, and that is the jnana-marg. Actual, detailed practice can involve tantra, hatha, meditation, etc. Some other time, we shall go into this more, but just for contemplation for now: Jnana is the ultimate result of all practice. After receiving Jnana, no practice is necessary.

2. As for correct translation: What I am saying is there is ONLY one correct translation. Interpretations can be many. For example: mrutyu is translated as Death. It should not be translated as reduction, vanishing, etc. Now, the problem with ancient studies is: the translation is contextual, which means that the translation has to be taken from the dictionary used before the writer. For example: Prakaasha in current Sanskrit Dictionary means Light. But, in Patanjali, it means Sattva Guna. While studying Patanjali, no modern translations of words such as usage of Psychiatry should be done. In the interpretation or commentary, one can explain the meaning or usage of the ideas as they like. And, that was the main reason I wrote the book. My commentary is in my DVDs, unless I decide to transcribe it. May be I might post a part of it on the youtube, if possible.

3. As for Soul's statement about my Translation of Sutra2, may be I shall try to post the Sutra2 translation and commentary from my DVD on YouTube. How is that?

4. The reason for my above comments is: I have noticed senior yoga students and teachers, especially in the western world, who started their practice with Asanas, and trying to get the knowledge of Philsoophy from their Asana teachers who have not studied the philosophy from the Original Angle, which definitely starts with Sanskrit. Thus, to conclude: The Yoga Philosophy has to be learnt from someone who knows Sanskrit or has studied with someone who knew Sanskrti.

Namaste
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-05-11 9:55 AM (#85965 - in reply to #76972)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


I shall try to post the Patanjali Speech part to comply Soul, but for now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ2VXPws-Q
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-05-11 11:35 PM (#86035 - in reply to #76972)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


SoulJourney said: I'd like to read Neels definition of sutra 2 of Patanjali also.

===> I went through my video shooting and the part of the workshop which is discussing Sutra2 is 45 min long. So, I shall try to post in on YouTube using a low quality video. Otherwise, you can obtain just one of my 18 DVDs which contains this part.
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souljourney108
Posted 2007-05-12 7:36 PM (#86088 - in reply to #76972)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


Thaks Neel,
I'll wait for it on Youtube otherwise I would like to buy dvd.

Hari Om,
Soul
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-05-12 10:50 PM (#86103 - in reply to #86088)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


souljourney108 - 2007-05-12 7:36 PM

Thaks Neel,
I'll wait for it on Youtube otherwise I would like to buy dvd.

Hari Om,
Soul


Dear SoulJourney, I spent 4 hours to get the 45 min into small format. I do not have the original Camcorder Tape. I only have a movie file which is 1 hour long which is one of the 18 DVDs of my Patanjali Sutras Explanatory Speeches. The sutra2 part is 45 min. I am not able to cut this file into WebStreaming format. And, YouTube allows only 10 min max. So, PM me and get only that particular CD. Thisi is at the beginning of 3rd Speech out of 18 speeches.

I shall try once more to see whether I can extract only audio etc. out of this.

Peace
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-05-13 2:16 PM (#86150 - in reply to #86088)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


souljourney108 - 2007-05-12 7:36 PM

Thaks Neel,
I'll wait for it on Youtube otherwise I would like to buy dvd.

Hari Om,
Soul


OK Soul: Since you seem to be extremely interested, I have done the following. Of course, video quality is at loss due to many reasons, but Audio is intact.

There are total 18 DVDs of my speeches. Out of which 3rd DVD of 60 min contains the Sutra2 explanation. I am giving approx 50 min of this DVD here. So, Speech3-Part1 to Part5 mean, DVD3, first 50 min. Hear with loud speakers. Best wishes.

http://www.youtube.com and search on 'Neel Kulkarni' and click on the above files.

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souljourney108
Posted 2007-05-13 10:46 PM (#86164 - in reply to #76972)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


Thank-you Neel...

Hari Om
Soul
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souljourney108
Posted 2007-05-13 11:26 PM (#86166 - in reply to #76972)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


'Stopping the modifications of perception'... the easiest to understand translation I've seen.
Thanks again

Hari Om
Soul
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kulkarnn
Posted 2007-05-14 8:51 AM (#86205 - in reply to #76972)
Subject: RE: Philosophy of Yoga


Thanks Soul. hariH OM.
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