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| Hiya, today we did kurmasana and supta kurmasana in class. It was my first time and frankly, the teacher wasn't very helpful today (he seemed out of sorts, didn't do many alignments... weird). I didn't have any idea what kurmasana was, let alone the proper way to do it. I first tried the beginner modification, holding on to the feet with the arms under folded legs, and since that was easy, I tried to mimic what the other students were doing in the full pose... I was able to mostly unfold my legs, and stretch my arms flat on the ground. But my back felt really rounded, and I thought that perhaps it should have been extended forward more so that my spine would be in a more neutral position. I couldn't seem to do that, however. And naturally, attempting to cross my legs behind my head from there felt pretty awkward, I couldn't really lift my heels off the ground anyways in order to bring them towards my head. And attempting to do so led to even further rounding in the spine...
Still haven't received my light on yoga book, so I came to my trusted team of internet yogis for guidance... Is there supposed to be rounding in the back? And if not, then perhaps I shouldn't be doing this pose yet? Or is it okay to attempt it, round back and all, and from there work to bring my heart forward and return my spine to neutral?
It's been suggested to me by one of my instructors that it might be time for me to attend a mysore session. I'll admit I feel a little bit intimidated (I came in early for class one day and saw some of the folks in mysore, and they are just amazing, floating around like perhaps I would if I practiced on the moon...) But heck, I think if I really want to learn to do these things right, I need some individualized attention. I'm a little ticked off that the teacher was not all that helpful... I only attend one class a week with him, and I was impressed the first time, but it's been less instructional since then. He gives a million verbal instructions, mind you, so perhaps he feels that we should find it within ourselves a bit, not necessarily always be moved into the proper pose. But maybe next week I'll skip this level 2 class and try the later level 1 class with a different teacher I've never had a class with before... We'll see.
Anyways, can you help me channel my inner tortoise?
sp
Edited by slowpie6 2007-01-27 1:28 PM
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| Hi Slowpie,
This is one of the main challenges with teachers adjusting students in Yoga. The students often get greedy and then feel agrieved if they don't receive any/enough adjustments in the class. It's unwise to compare the number of adjustments you received to previous classes or if other students received more than you. While physical instructions certainly help with encouraging muscle memory, verbal instructions are also just as important.
Mysore classes will allow you to experience the real essence of Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga. If you feel ready, then definately start them and your practise will go through the roof.
Jonathon |
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| ...and yes, in Kurmasana the spine should be lengthened and you should extend forward while in Supta Kurmasana the spine has to be rounded.
Jonathon |
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| That's great advice you have from Jonnie.
Mysore classes are the only ones I go to. You learn a lot from them, and you don't have to be intimidated, just do your practice as always.
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| Hi Slowpie,
yes Mysore is the only way to really progress in Ashtanga. Progress is much faster in mysore as your teacher can assess what you need to work on and emphasize those areas.
As for Supta kurmasana, I'd like to share my experience. You need to have a flat back in order to get deeper in the forward bend. It will help you bind hands much more easily. Also lift the heels to work on your quads and back strength. What helped my kurmasana and supta kurmasana was to practice forward bendingwith legs apart (about the width of your mat) and get your chest and chin on the floor. Once you are comfortable with that Kurmasana and Supta K should come easily. I think Upavishta helps a little, but perhaps the hamstrings don't get worked on as much.
Another thing I like to prep for these poses are marichysana A and B, they are very good for working the legs behind the shoulders and opening your hips. My teacher irons me out like a pancake in both the Marichyasanas and also kurmasana. also I cheat by doing dwi pada outside class...that definitely helps with Supta K.
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| Dwi Pada Alina? Dear god, to the ashtanga prison with you! 
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Expert Yogi
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| While I agree that fliexibility in upavistakonasana is essential to this pose, it is only one of the areas to work on. I do a pretty decent upavista, but ANY lift of the legs to slide the arms under is painful. Tight shoulders would also inhibit entry into the pose, as though I didn't need any more obstacles!  |
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| Hey Jonnie, I think you have accurately summed up my current problem... I have become dependent on adjustments. I think it has to do with having practiced for a long time with no teacher, and then coming to realize that many of my poses were in bad form. But my best efforts have yet to overcome the "programming" I gave my body in certain poses. I feel like I need to be adjusted frequently (and probably in the same way) so that my muscles can relearn how the pose should feel... But I should be able to find that feeling from within, and I feel insecure about that. Downdog is a particular problem, I do it so often in class that I'm afraid I'm just reinforcing my old pattern if the teacher doesn't come to fix me... But I need to gain confidence in my practice and I imagine one of these days, I'll get it right and it will feel right. However, I am not in any way feeling aggrieved by personally receiving fewer or more adjustments than other students, I am not comparing or keeping track or any of that. It was just a generalized impression that the teacher had essentially not done any adjustments that day. But you're also right that verbal instructions are powerful tools for guiding students, and when I pay close attention and try to adjust myself according to his tips, I sometimes find the "magic spot" that suddenly makes the pose work completely differently.
So I guess it's time I get started on Mysore. I don't think that I can go more than once a week with my schedule, since it's very early in the morning and I tend to work late, but I guess I can go on Monday mornings before work, which will make it a long day but at least it's a quieter one at work. I'm excited and nervous despite all your assurances that it is for all levels. But I am definitely interested in moving forward and improving, so if that's the best way then I'm in.
Alina, thanks for the tips on preparatory poses that can help me with the supta kurmasana... I'm beginning to think that I am indeed not ready to do that one, however. My Marichyasanas are a bit problematic right now, especially C where I can bind but it makes me lose my grounding (unless I am adjusted by the teacher...  ). In forward bend, I'm sure I can't get my chest on the ground between my legs at that width, though I can lay flat on my legs and flat on the ground in the split... As for putting my feet behind my head, well, I can get one back there but it just doesn't feel good. It's not that it hurts, but my back feels all crunched up from having to curb forward - perhaps it's just a question of learning to be comfortable in an uncomfortable position, but I'd rather have a teacher there to correct me than to practice at home and then get stuck or something.
sp
PS: be on the lookout for my upcoming novel on my first Mysore session! |
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| Hi SP,
I hope you didn't find my post too harsh, because that's never my intention in any of my comments.
The thoughts and feelings you mentioned were exactly the same as the ones that I experienced (and I expect many others as well  ) when I began my Ashtanga Vinyasa practise.
Do you have David Swenson's book?
If not, it would also be a useful addition to Light on Yoga.
Jonathon |
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| Hey Jonnie, I didn't perceive any sort of harshness in your post, simply a caution from someone who's moved past that point. I'm just a humble beginner and accept that I have a lot of learning to do, and on levels that have nothing to do with asanas or vinyasa, or even yoga at all... I appreciate your input.
I don't have David Swenson's book, I'll have to look into that eventually. Some of my extra tools are:
- my teacher's DVD of the primary series, he's an excellent teacher and of great (equal?) caliber as David Swenson - I haven't actually done the full primary yet, I have done the short form, but mostly I just watch the video in order to get more info on some of the poses I've been practicing in class.
- Anatomy of Hatha Yoga, which I just bought and have flipped through randomly, but am now beginning to read from the start
- eventually I'll also have my copy of Light on Yoga shipped (where the heck is it!!?? I want it now!  )
- and the endless wealth of knowledge that is shared here amongst these boards,
I have a bunch of other DVDs but I don't use them since I've been going to practice. I might give them a look-over when I have more experience and try some of them again, just to see how it feels after having spent some time learning in class. But they feel rather obsolete to me now with the great opportunity I have to train with my teacher.
I asked him what he thought about my coming to Mysore, and he also feels (what did I expect, duh!) that it is the best way to learn. So I think I'll be going tomorrow morning. He also claims that some folks who start going to Mysore won't go to a led practice anymore. I hope I don't end up feeling that way because that would require a major restructuring of my life and sleeping patterns if I were to start waking up that early every day!
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| slowpie6 - 2007-01-29 9:56 PM
He also claims that some folks who start going to Mysore won't go to a led practice anymore.
That was definately my experience as well.
Mysore/self practise allows you to work to your own breath, as opposed to the teachers count. I still go to led classes occassionally, though find them a little too fast for me now.
Jonathon |
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| "He also claims that some folks who start going to Mysore won't go to a led practice anymore. I hope I don't end up feeling that way because that would require a major restructuring of my life and sleeping patterns if I were to start waking up that early every day!" (SP)
That's why yoga isn't a hobby but a lifestyle
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| Yeah, lifestyle change... Work is interfering with my desired lifestyle, I'm afraid. I only got home from work at 3 AM last night (that's not normal, mind you) and had a hard time getting a move on this morning...
Personally, in my led classes, I still follow my own breath. It means I'm not always in pace with the others, but that's not a concern of mine. However, at the moment that means that I tend to go a bit faster than then pace that the teacher is trying to set, because my breathes are still a bit superficial and therefore my inhales and exhales don't last as long as they ultimately should. I get back in the timing when we do poses that we hold a bit longer, maybe taking an extra breath or two. And the teachers are often reminding the students to take their time and follow their own breath, not try to match the timing of their instructions. They don't say "inhale and jump forward" but rather "on the next inhale, jump forward...". So I'm careful to wait til the right moment according to my breathing.
But yeah, I can definitely see how being alone in your practice, and pacing it your way, would be beneficial. I also imagine that you can then spend more time, more breaths on specific asanas that you need to work on more. And maybe even cheat a little and skip a couple of rounds of navasana, if you're lucky and the teacher's looking the other way,  . Gosh that's a tough pose!
sp |
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| My teacher never misses a trick, so there's no opportunity for cheating, and none for not giving 100% either! But I like it that way, I need it
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| Yes DD, I deserve to be in the Ashtanga prison..;) 
Anyhow Slowpie, good luck with Mysore. I also rarely attend led classes nowadays. I'd rather do a self practice at home than go for led classes, because I just don't find it very productive, as you already know the postures.
Mysore is completely different, your teacher knows your weaknesses and strengths and teaches you based on that. It helps to get to know your teacher very well and discuss things with them too. Right now I am working on standing up from UD, and my teacher is really getting me to work my thighs in every warrior and standing asana so I have the strength to stand up.
When I got stuck in Supta K, those were the things I did that helped, and for me the breakthrough was getting the back flat.
But anyway SP, enjoy the journey. If I could get into every posture from the start, I wouldn't feel as elated as I was when I finally bound Supta K, or when I could finally dropback on my own..The wait makes it even more rewarding! |
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| Yes I guess stiff shoulders would make it hard to bind. My shoulders are pretty loose, so I didn't really have to deal with that issue. But I don't mean upavishta konasana, more like padangustasana on the floor, because for me, upavishta is pretty easy flat on the floor. I think upavishta works the adductors more. the narrower my legs, the more it mirrors how they need to be in kurmasana.
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| "But anyway SP, enjoy the journey. If I could get into every posture from the start, I wouldn't feel as elated as I was when I finally bound Supta K, or when I could finally dropback on my own..The wait makes it even more rewarding!"
Struggling with asanas teach you a lot. Mr Iyengar says that he had to teach dancers who were very flexible and had no trouble doing all of the postures he gave them, but there was then the challenge of pulling them back so that they would deal with the concentration in each pose, and develop the spiritual aspect and so on. It must be hard to grasp that side of yoga (which is supposed to be the most important) when you have never had to struggle. You don't learn patience, to be brave, perseverance...Mind you a lot of really flexible people tend to not be as strong.
The struggle is a blessing
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| Agreed folks. I'm loving the struggle. I really don't think that yoga would be as fulfilling if everything came easy. But I find it very rewarding when weeks of toiling at a particular pose suddenly yields a sort of "revelation" and everything falls into place. I've had that experience a few times over the year I've been practicing. I was however beginning to stall with my DVD collection of yoga videos, so I am very thankful I finally made the move to studying in a studio. Things that had started to feel easy have now become challenging again because I've been properly instructed on the various microdetails of a pose, which I could easily overlook when simply trying to mimic a pose shown on a DVD with less than thorough instructions.
I haven't yet tried kurmasana again, maybe next time I go to a Mysore session, my teacher will take me there as that is the next pose in the primary series that I have to take on. We'll see when he thinks I am ready. I'm going to write about my first Mysore experience in a separate post, if anyone's interested.
sp |
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| So I tried both kurmasana and supta kurmasana today in my mysore session, with the help of my teacher. With some intense effort, I eventually managed to get my shoulders to the ground with my hands forward holding on the my feet, and once there I was instructed to put my hands behind me. Not comfortable, but so far so good. My teacher then told me to start bringing my feet in closer, which I simply could not do. I tried as hard as I could to will my feet closer to my head, but literally nothing was moving. He then told me to push them upwards and inwards using my arms, and I managed to drag my very heavy legs in a bit. So he took over and started moving them inwards himself, sliding first my left leg in and moving my left shoulder under my knee, then putting my left foot behind my head. Still okay, though certainly not relaxing... Then he put my right shoulder under my right knee, and pulled my right foot in and crossed over my left ankle and...  OUCH! That did NOT feel good at all! So he adjusted me "out" of the pose a bit until I was in a challenging but not painful position, had me bind my hands behind my back and told me to breath there for a while. I did my best, but got out of it as soon as I could.
The pain I was feeling was essentially going along the outside edge of my right leg, with some of the pain in my thigh, but more intensely located below my knee, I guess in the calf muscle. There wasn't any pain in the knee joint itself mind you. I imagine the left leg would have hurt too if it had been brought in second, but maybe not as I've noticed marked differences between my left and right side in various poses. It's hard to describe the pain specifically, but I can tell you I wasn't injured from the process, the pain left immediately as soon as he uncrossed my legs and moved them outwards a bit, and there is nothing negative to report now a couple of hours after finishing my practice. I'm left wondering what exactly was going on... At first, when I complained of the pain, my teacher suggested it was because of my calf muscle having been crushed a bit by my shoulder or something, then he tried to adjust the position of that muscle and reposition my leg, but I still felt the pain... I can't really say that it was a pain from overstretching (but what do I know, I'm not sure I've ever over-stretched anything with this elasticky body of mine! ). Any suggestions on what could have been the source and also what sort of things I could do to work through it?
Part of me wonders if maybe I'm not just being a wimp... I mean, I'd have to admit that I've never done any pose that pushed me to the limits of my capacity, I do them to the point that I feel a challenge at maintaining them, but nothing ever strains me too much. Perhaps if I hadn't panicked at the sudden appearance of pain in this pose, I could have eased it through breathing and found some measure of comfort.
Anyone care to chance a guess as to what's wrong with my tortoise?
sp
Edited by slowpie6 2007-02-02 1:01 PM
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Location: London, England | Hi SP,
This is a bit tricky, because I'm visualizing your problem from previous experience, and haven't actually met you, but it sounds a bit like you are over-stretching the peroneal muscles on the side of the calf, by turning the ankle, and that perhaps this stretch is being felt also in the thigh in the biceps femoris and/or iliotibial band. The latter stretch may be indicative of you letting the knee be pushed laterally, which would also explain why you can't pull your feet towards you-you want to pull the knees back, so the top of the head is pushing against the backs of the calves/ankles (this straightens the spine a bit and stretches the hips and shoulders more-wonderful-just what you need when you already feel like you've been stuffed inside a very small box-don't worry, you'll get used to it )
I think part of the secret of doing yoga without hurting your knees is to always brace them-keep them away from the outer reaches of their movement, this way, you get to affect other joints in your body, and help to strengthen the knee at the same time.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| sp - my definition that I give students is that if YOU call it pain, it is pain. Nobody I know can tell from outside my body what is and isn't PAIN. If your experience is painful - stop. |
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| Hi SP,
If i remember your previous posts correctly, you have only been practising Yoga for a couple of weeks/months.
If that is true, to be at supta Kurmasana already is an incredible feat and you must have a high level of natural flexibility. It took me years to achieve that pose!
Somethings just take time and as long as your effort and motivation remain you'll definately achieve it.
As SKPJ says "Practise and all is coming"".
Jonathon |
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| Hi..
how is tarasana..or star pose? Sit with your feet together almost like baddha konasana but distance from your pelvis is about the same as when you bind supta k. Maybe 2 feet away from your pelvis and bend forward and put your head on the floor between the legs? Is there a pull on the side of your legs? I used to have that issue for a mysterious week some time ago. Made Supta K very uncomfortable, but it went away after I checked with my teacher and he suggested to try this. I can't remember what he said...maybe it was the hamstrings...or something..
Other than that..marichyasanas, kurmasana..compass pose, one legged pigeon pose.....all good for supta kurmasana in my experience.
Edited by Alina76 2007-02-03 2:55 AM
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| Nick, I'll read up on those body parts maybe tomorrow and try to understand what you said, . I suspect that your idea about pushing my knee out laterally is right, but I'm not about to test it right this minute as I've been a bit traumatized by my experience yesterday and want to wait to try it again under supervision. I'll ask for help in Monday's mysore session...
Tourist, I guess you are right when you say that anything that I would describe as pain *is* pain and therefore I should pull out. My teacher did not suggest that I suffer through it, it was myself that later began to doubt my feelings. I think that as a bendy person, I've had limited experience with overstretching, and I am unfamiliar with the difference between an acceptable amount of strain from appropriate stretching, and going too far. I was simply wondering if perhaps the "pain" I felt was more accurately a strain from stretching, but I'm fairly convinced now that it wasn't a normal or acceptable feeling. I'm happy to report that I have never allowed myself to feel pain in a pose before this moment and as you know I quickly pulled out (though I have had some of that good muscular soreness after a practice that worked something really well). I don't adhere to the "no pain no gain" mentality at all. My take is "no effort no gain".
Jonnie, it will be one year since I began practicing sometime this coming March, although most of that time was at home using DVDs and with poor form. I began "official" yoga (ashtanga) exactly one month ago today, on Jan. 3. I have always been naturally flexible in some parts that prove to be tight for most people (e.g. hips, hamstrings, shoulders) which I suppose has made it easier for me to begin working on some more advanced postures, but my work is barely begun. I've uncovered some major weaknesses in my body that I believe exist because my natural flexibility has prevented my body from developping certain support muscles that are designed to guard the body from overstretching. It has become clear that the work I need to do in many poses is diametrically opposed to what is recommended for other students - for example, in many poses that involve forward bending, I mustn't fold down completely (which I can easily do) but rather pull out and hold the pose halfway, in order to develop the muscles that act to hold you "out" of the pose. I'm not far enough into my Anatomy of Hatha Yoga book to be sure that I'm using the right terminology, but I think I'm talking about muscles that act against gravity. My most prominent weak spot is the muscles that line the spine in the lumbar area. And my darn foot arches.
Alina, I was unfamiliar with tarasana and tried it just now, can't be certain I did it properly, but I did not feel any pain in the way I described in supta kurmasana. In tarasana, I felt a stretch on the outer part of my hips and thighs, but it was not painful in any way. I think I will practice that for a while and see if it helps. Another pose that was introduced to me by one of my teachers involves sitting erect, folding one leg in towards the chest with the heel on the ground, and placing the opposite ankle on the folded knee (I found a pic, I'll try to attach it). From this position, I work to push the elevated knee away from my body, while gradually bringing my grounded heel closer to my sitting bones. This creates the same sort of stretch as I felt in tarasana. I'm unfamiliar with compass pose, I'll have to give it a try next time I practice at home (my search for it led me to this series http://www.yogajournal.com/practice/1996_1.cfm which claims: "Hips too tight? This unusual sequence creates balance in your pelvis and can unlock even the most stubborn hips." - I'll try it tomorrow and see how that goes). And finally, it's interesting that you should have mentionned eka pada rajakapotanasana because after my supta kurmasana nightmare, I was clumsily trying to go back into chaturanga dandasana, and had no strength to do it properly so I ended up in a position similar to eka pada rajakapotanasana, and it felt so good that I decided to settle in to it for a moment or two. E.P.R is not a pose I have ever really practiced, and the times I tried I was unable to do a good backbend in it, but the variation with the back leg straight and not much (if any) backbend feels nice and I do it once in a while. I'll have to consider integrating it into my practice as well.
Folks, thanks for all your suggestions and help. I needed it. I have no problem at all with accepting that some poses will be a huge challenge and will take a long while to properly achieve, but I don't enjoy not having a clue how to progress forward and overcome some of the hurdles. I feel your help has traced a path for me to follow and I am thankful for that.
Attachments
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 stretch2a.jpe (71KB - 29 downloads)
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| Technical question... how does one get the image to appear within the post as I've seen others do, rather than as a link to a different page? sp |
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Kurmasana/Supta Kurmasana
