|
|
| About a year ago I had a conversation with my neighbor about how some people think Christianity and yoga conflict, and how some teachers in churches can't call it yoga, etc. I told her that yoga does not have a deity and it's only about doing good and being good, and therefore does not confict with Christianity. Enter Gita! As I'm reading it, I am thinking that Krishna is the deity linked to yoga. Lord Krishna is telling Arjuna that he created the universe, and that he is "everything". How can the Christian God, and Krishna both have created the universe? It can't be that they are the same deity with different names due to culture because with one you go to Heaven or Hell, and with one you are reborn, among several other differences. So, they must be different entities. Not to mention, as Dale points out, the Bible states there is only one God, and no offense, but I agree with him that if you are a Christian, then believing in other gods is incompatible.
Then, someone told me the whole (Gita) story is allegorical and not even Hindu's believe in Krishna? So, I looked it up and, nope, Krishna's coming up as a diety.
Well, am I confused now, or was I confused then? Thoughts? |
|
| |
|
Location: Upstate NY | First you must realize that you are speaking about the same "god". Krishna is a manifestation or form of "god".
Om Shanti,
Ravi |
|
| |
|
| That's the crux of my question-I am asking if other people believe Krishna is God. If he's the same God as the Christian God. By your answer, I assume the answer is yes.
And further, tho Christians believe there is only one path to God, through Jesus, Hindus believe Krishna takes different froms and can be the Christian God, Buddist, Allah, etc. Is that correct?
I was told that that there was no diety in yoga, and I was also told the Gita is allegorical. I am finding, as I read this stuff myself, that's not true. So, now, I'm trying to cut through the "opinions" for lack of a better word, and get the foundation of the truth regarding God and yoga, in the origional, not western view. After I do that, I can learn nuances and opinions, and points of view.
No matter what, I'm not dropping yoga or writing a book about the evils of yoga just b/c there IS a different god associated with it. ;) |
|
| |
|
| You laid out quite a challenge for yourself Kym. In my several decades on earth with exposure to being a Quaker during my youth, through a run at Catholicism, a stay in Allah territory, to my yoga studies, I've surrendered trying to combat others' religious opinions or defend my own. As I told a satellite TV salesman at the door last night when he asked how many TVs I had, "You don't need to know that." My beliefs are mine based on my studies and as much rational thought as I can muster. Christians are correct: to them, Jesus is the answer. I f Jesus apperaed before me and told me that, I'd be on the bandwagon and become a fire and brimstone evangilist. If Krishna takes the wheel of my Mustang this morning and drives me to work--poof! I'm Hindu. I like your approach to discover the root of the ideas that are the foundation for the lives of many. Keep us posted will ya? |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Bruce, I think its time for you to go to India, 
Kym, someone once gave me some information that I found very valuable later on after I figured it out of course. But, I once had sooo many questions about things, life and death. I did intense studies on selective religions, some of which I dare not even bothered with. The answer kept coming back the same. However, the information that was handed to me was this. I was told once that when I figured out and completely understood exactly what God was, that all my questions to the universe would be answered. Obviously that is a work in progress and has taken many years to recover and I say recover, because the answer has always been with me and at my fingertips. However, when you start comparing religions and dieties, don't try to combine them together, it will just confuse the hell out of you. Try to stick with one at a time. Understand that one completely, then study another. Then try to forget all if not most of it and apply the principals to your life and circumstances. Then notice that God is everywhere, in everything and in every person. God is the essence of every religion, every diety and then when you see that, take it further and realize that there is no God afterall, you are God - you are Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva, Laxmi, Durga, Christ and others. It's just your perception and practice is way off base due to the ignorance and confusion...which is the only reason we exist in the first place, to rediscover and find that within ourselves.
Now, don't get me wrong here....there are many ways of explaining this. There are Swami's out there that have better explanations than I. I just gave you my short and sweet to the point blunt version of my experience. See my signature line.... I'll post it again here so it won't be forgotten...Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards
The Vedic temple that I attend have no dieties whatsoever. They worship Fire. I like this, because its very simple and very similar to the Native Americans worship of nature.
Edited by Cyndi 2007-01-04 9:05 AM
|
|
| |
|
| Hmm... the gita's an interesting book, isn't it?
Just to throw something else into the fire, what's taught as modern christian thought has changed a bit over the years, and you'll get different interpretations from different parts of the world. Having read the Bible myself, I find that it's easy to make a number of different cases for various things. Some of these interpretations actually fit well into the Hindu world view, some (such as the more mainstream, fundamental interpretation) do not.
As far as Krisna himself, I'm reminded of the holy trinity in Catholisicsm. God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit. So when we're talking about Krisna being God, we're really talking more God as Krisna, rather than Krisna as God, the all encompassing.
I also agree with Bruce, try some things out, read a lot, make up your own darned mind, and tell the satelite salesmen it's none of their darned business what you believe.
EDIT: One other thing to throw onto the fire. Siva is also consider the diety or god of yoga.
Edited by GreenJello 2007-01-04 9:18 AM
|
|
| |
|
| The whole concept of creations defining the creator is ridiculous
If our belief in God is a true one, then God being God is simply to great to be held down by one culture's or individual's dogma
Humans have conflicting opinions
God does not
So when you have two or more stories about what God is, you can rest assured that all of the stories are a little right and a little wrong
What is the truth?
Well, I guess you'll have to find that out for yourself in your subjective relationship with your impression of God.
Cultural Gods and Dogmatic Gods are simply put false gods, but by stating what I've stated have I created some 'new dogma'?
Lettuce spray.
|
|
| |
|
| I am enjoying these thoughtful replies. Thank you.  |
|
| |
|
Location: Upstate NY | Om Namah Sivaya
Kym,
I will feabily attempt to let you know what my beliefs are and why.
I was raised in a strict baptist family who faith had strengthened deeply after the death of my aunt in 1974 by a drunk driver. It was the faith that helped my grandparents and my fahter through it all as my family is very close. My grandfather was deeply involved with his church as a deacon and so forth. So much of my life growing up their belief system was pounded into my head.
Being the typical small town kid with nothing to do and completly lost spiritually as I could not fathom the whole hell thing that was preached over and over in every sermon I turned to all of the rotton things that society today has to offer. Sex, Drugs and Rock-n-Roll some more so than the others. 
In 2000 I left my job as a project manager for a major telecommunicatins contracting company to move to the NYC working for another company but for alot more $$$$$$$. Of course! 
My girlfriend at the time Michelle also moved back to NYC herself to start back at her old company AON which was located in the world trade center. Life was good for a couple months but each time i would go visit her during lunch or after work I would find myself very uncomfortable because I was only making $80,000 per year and these guys around her all day were making $400,00-$600,00 per year. Well my ego finally got the best of me as I felt inferior to all of the guys. We broke up and it was a nasty break up many many things were said that should have never been said.
A year and some months later I am driving down the highway in Hartford, CT listening to Howard Stern and I first hear of the towers were hit. I immediatly thought of Michelle, called our friend in NYC to see if they had heard anything........ sometime later after the confusion and dust had settled Michelle was pronounced as one of the victims to the attack. I was crushed! Blamed myself for her being there, blamed myself for never aplogizing......... I went into a severe depression.
Knowing my grandfather was somewhat (or so I thought) of an authority of the bible I asked him one day this question. "If I am born a buddhist or a muslim I am a good person and do good things my whole life, yet never have heard the word of Jesus what happens to me?" " That's an easy one" my grandfather replies " you go to hell because you did not take the lord Jesus Christ into your heart as your saviour."
This completely blew me away........... this cannot be right I told myslef.... everything i read about Jesus and his compassion?....... my friend the Buddhist at work?........ my Muslim friends? were all going to hell?
I am completely grateful for the ignorance of my grandfather as it made me dive deeper into my own yoga practice and to research on a deeper level of what "god" was to me.
Through this I have studied and lived at the Sivananda Ashram where I really was able to understand the true teachings of non-duality. The first day walking into the temple I noticed at the altar pictures of Jesus, Buddha and many of the other great spiritual masters. I had inquired as to why were these pictures here and not more of Siva or Krishna..... which came the reply that all of these "people" were all the same. They are of one consciousness that of what we all are comprised of, it is just that we are all just packaged a little differently.
Through the years of much study and meditation I have found that these beliefs to be truth. That I am not an individual but all is one. And upon picking up the bible and re-reading many of Jesus's teachings I can also interpret the same.
All of the Hindu avatars are a representaion of one thing "god" whether it Shiva, Rama or Krishna. In fact that is what you are Kym, a representation of "god" in all of the beauty and essence of the divine.
Break down to the fundamentals of every major religion and you will basically find the same things.............
Sorry about going of on a long story about nothing and probably confusing the heck out of you but what I guess the point I was trying to convey is that this journey is yours and try and learn and study as much as you can. Preconcieved ideas will only hold you back.
"We are not human beings on a spiritual journey but spiritual beings on a human journey"
- Buddha
Om Shanti,
Ravi
Edited by Ravi 2007-01-04 10:03 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
  
| Ravi - that is an amazing story. Thank you!
Kym - aside from all these wonderful replies, only one thing (which has been stated here already in other ways) has helped me make sense of this question. God is NOT an entity. Humans put faces to God because, as someone said, we are not good at understanding anything so vast and incomprehensible. God is not a person with a face or even anything like any of the entities you have seen on science fiction shows, although I do believe Star Trek and others have made good honest attempts at trying to portray omnipotent beings
God is more like the fire Cyndi's Vedic friends revere. Fire is a force and a presence, but it doesn't have likes, dislikes, etc. Fire is not good or bad, it just is. If a house burns down, we don't blame the fire or stop believing in it. Likewise, if we use fire to make light, to warm ourselves or cook food, we don't thank the fire or start going around telling other people they should believe in fire. It just is. |
|
| |
|
| tourist - 2007-01-04 10:25 AM
Ravi - that is an amazing story. Thank you!
Kym - aside from all these wonderful replies, only one thing (which has been stated here already in other ways ) has helped me make sense of this question. God is NOT an entity. Humans put faces to God because, as someone said, we are not good at understanding anything so vast and incomprehensible. God is not a person with a face or even anything like any of the entities you have seen on science fiction shows, although I do believe Star Trek and others have made good honest attempts at trying to portray omnipotent beings
God is more like the fire Cyndi's Vedic friends revere. Fire is a force and a presence, but it doesn't have likes, dislikes, etc. Fire is not good or bad, it just is. If a house burns down, we don't blame the fire or stop believing in it. Likewise, if we use fire to make light, to warm ourselves or cook food, we don't thank the fire or start going around telling other people they should believe in fire. It just is.
or like my philosophy professor in college used to say
We don't know 
|
|
| |
|
| Ravi, I appreciate you sharing such a personal story. I'm sorry for the loss of Michelle. The pain that resulted from 9/11 is staggering.
I gotta say, the "we don't know" is a great answer!
|
|
| |
|
| For me, I ran away from "God" as I grew up to understand Him right around 1999-2000. In that time, my godmother died, my favorite aunt, my favorite uncle, and my brother got cancer. I was pissed and it was all God's fault.
Fast forward to 2005, I'm now in a 12-step program of recovery- step 2 says- "Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity" Step 3 says "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God"
Now, like yoga, 12-step isn't about religion, it's about faith and spirituality. One of the exercises for step 3 is to define "God" as I understand him... not you, not the preacher, priest, swami, etc... but how "I" understand him. This took a lot of work from someone who had zero spiritual life. At first, my "power greater than me" was the power of my group, the power of the ocean, the power of nature. Eventually, I defined my God... two things were crucial in this discovery process.
1. I looked up the definition of faith- it's defined as "belief without knowing" I didn't have to know to believe.. that was HUGE for me.
2. I was in a meeting where a man said "if I can define God, put a picture to God, then He's not vast enough to keep me sober. I know then that I have to redefine my higher power"
Today, my God doesn't have a face. It's a force- the force of nature, the stars, the ocean, the beating heart of a creature- what keeps this universe doing what it does. I don't align myself with any particular religion- it puts a box around my God that I am not comfortable with- however, I can sit comfortably in a church, in a temple, with people of another faith, or completely by myself and feel the presence of my higher power.
Good luck on your journey! Don't be afraid if it lasts a lifetime- it's not the destination, but the journey that's important. |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | tourist - 2007-01-04 10:25 AM
God is more like the fire Cyndi's Vedic friends revere. Fire is a force and a presence, but it doesn't have likes, dislikes, etc. Fire is not good or bad, it just is. If a house burns down, we don't blame the fire or stop believing in it. Likewise, if we use fire to make light, to warm ourselves or cook food, we don't thank the fire or start going around telling other people they should believe in fire. It just is.
Well, I don't know about friends, I consider the Vedic Temple to be much more than a casual acquaintance. Any 'true' Hindu priest will tell you that Dieties are only used as tools and guidance, not to be intrepreted literally so to speak like the Christians do. Historically, the Veda's were given orally. Below is a brief history about the Vedas.
Vedas were revealed at the beginning of creation to meditating seers; Rishis, who were in a superconscious state of mind. Yogis, being virtuous and pure, have already experienced the presence of God in their hearts and minds. These Yogis were able to perceive the Vedas. Vedas are Apauruseya which means one that is not made by humans. No one has ever claimed authorship of the Vedas unlike other scriptures. The Vedas are the oldest books of civilizations Vedas were divinely revealed to meditating pure and virtuous seers, or Rishis.
The Vedas were passed, by oral transmission, from one generation to the next. Sages and scholars memorized and recited the Vedas in various forms. Each form of recitation was designed to keep the correctness of each Mantra, hymn, so exactness could be achieved on reproduction. The oral transmission from one generation to the next continued unabated; therefore, these Vedas are called “Strutis,” as well. Vedas were propagated through hearing, remembering, and orally reciting, so the Vedas carry the title of Strutis”. Only Vaidic hymns are called Mantras, and the hymns of other scriptures are called Slokas. Mantra is that verse whose meaning is to be analyzed repeatedly in the mind; whereas, one realizes the deep seated three dimensional meanings including the abstract, spiritual, and metaphysical. “In short, Mantra is to be thought over and over, again and again”. Mantra is pronounced as “M-an-tr”. Recite ‘Om’ prior to any Mantra, this is the basic rule. The purpose is to invoke blessings of God in realization of meanings of Mantra.
Initially, the Vedas were transmitted orally. Therefore, the Vedas are called Strutis, meaning that which is heard. The Samhita nomenclature was given when the Strutis were written in book format. The Samhitas could be destroyed by flood, or by fire, or by animals, and, also, by humans, so by oral recitation and memorization, the sages and scholars managed to keep the Vedas alive. When the Vedas were put in written form the Vedas became Samhitas, but only Samhitas are Vedas.
Edited by Cyndi 2007-01-04 12:25 PM
|
|
| |
|
| for me, all of the various names and images of God are simply labels and explainations for the singular ineffable.
second to this, yoga is a spiritual discipline like prayer. you cannot separate yoga from the spirituality, but you can separate it from the religion. prayer belongs to any and every religious practice, and thus so also can yoga.
Edited by zoebird 2007-01-04 1:11 PM
|
|
| |
|
| I can tell that you all are answering from the heart, and that’s a beautiful thing. But, what I’m really trying to discern is not what we as individuals have discovered, but what the dogma is regarding yoga and deities, or God and yoga. When I read Gita, I understood that yoga is directly linked to Krishna, and that Krishna is a God, and that among other things, that God offers rebirth. And that Hindus practiced yoga as a way to reach Krishna. Krishna says many times that practicing yoga will lead you to realizing God. It never said (that I saw) any old god, but the god of rebirth, and the god that created the sages, etc.
I want to be able to say as an educated yoga teacher, “this is the dogma behind yoga regarding God”….then I can tell people what I believe if they are interested. I can say how I think yoga is spiritual and that I think any exercise is spiritual b/c taking care of the body is taking care of God’s body. I would also say that certainly someone who has no spirituality or religion can still enjoy the benefits of yoga. I enjoyed yoga before I was a Christian, or very spiritual. Again, that’s all my spin and experience. I also want to be able to answer and educate with the historical facts for those that want to know.
I personally am not a seeker-I already have strong beliefs. Reading Gita didn’t change that for me, it only made me realize that I misunderstood some things. I want to be able to answer with facts, such as Jewish people believe Christ was not God’s son in the flesh. They don’t believe in the New Testament. I mean, that’s a fact. Then, if someone wanted my opinion about the Jewish faith, or whether or not I thought they were going to hell, that would be a different answer. Do you see the distinction I’m trying to make?
Personally, yes, I think that we all have to find God ourselves. And I believe that journey comes straight from God. Right now, I practice my faith with an open heart with the information I have. I also can see that boiling down the religions leaves you with the same message. But, I’m not asking about that. I'm not trying to defend yoga or any religion.
|
|
| |
|
| Kym - 2007-01-04 9:53 AM
I am enjoying these thoughtful replies. Thank you.
Dear Kym: Since you have embarked upon a Herculian (a deity!) task, and you are open to opinions, let me tell you the following:
- if you keep on studying Shrimad Bhagavadgita (which you must study if you are a student of Yoga), then you will keep on coming across Shree Krishna.
- if you keep on studying Shiva Purana, Hathayoga Pradipika, Shiva Sanhita, etc., you shall keep on coming across Shree Shiva.
- If you study Ganesha Purana, Shiva Purana, Vishnu Purana, etc. you shall keep on coming across Shree Ganesha, Shree Shiva and Shree Vishnu.
- If you study the Patanjali's Yoga Sutras (which you must study if you are a yoga student), then you shall not find a single name of deity in the entire Classical Philosophical Text accepted by Shree Ganesha devotees, Shree Shiva Devotees, and Shree Vishnu Devotees.
- If you go to a yoga class of some kinds, you shall find Hot Room with no deity, or only exercise with no asanas, etc.
- However, none of them shall tell you that you must take up their deity, and give up Christ. Even Christ himself will do the same. However, if you go to a Christian Church, they shall ask you to give up your deity and take up Christ.
- No wonder there is a fundamental difference between Yoga and Christianity/Islam.
- But, the good thing is : While a Shree Ganesha devotee can practice Yoga and he/she can not become a Christian, he/she can stay without bothering a Christian. But, a Christian can stay Christian and still follow Yoga without following Shree Ganesha, he/she should not bother Non Christian.
- This is NOT called Tolerance, but that is the Truth! |
|
| |
|
| Oiy Vey!
sigh....
Get rid of the dogma.
Dogma is for those uncapable of relating to God or any of the aims of good Yoga practices.
We don't know, so don't go regurtitating some unenlightened dogma from some con-artist who says that they do know.
Does that come across as too harsh?
Me-O-My.
If you could dogmatize the path to enlightenment then there'd be a lot more enlightenment going on, but you can't.
You have to live it, You have to experience it.
Kinda like how a writer writes about what they know.
So too should a good teacher teach about what they know.
Leave the God-relationship building up to the Almighty and the seeker. It is a private relationship to begin with.
Or
Do as you please, no matter to me.
to me Dogma is just so UNauthentic.
|
|
| |
|
| Kym,
what makes you think yoga has a dogma?
To be dogmatic is to hold a postion with what one believes to be sound reason. The very embodiment of yoga is thaat there must be growth and change and there is not a dogma or held position.
Yoga itself is not a religion. Religions are formed by man not by the Divine. Religions are mans effort to take the experience of another and craaft it in such a way that others might comprehend it with the rational mind.
Krishna is no more a deity than Hanuman. No more a deity than Shiva. No more a deity than you!
it would be foolish and arrogant of us as homosapiens to assume that which is divine could only take one form, only hold one thought, and offer only one path. It would likewise be foolish to believe that our processes of thought and our limitations of conceptualization are shared by the divine. It is the humanizing of the divine which cause the splintering of society through the tool referred to as religion.
If you'd like to do some reading on your own without my flavor find a copy of The Difference Between Religion and Yoga by The Mother (Sri Aurobindo's work). The discourses are very illuminating.
|
|
| |
|
| as an educated yoga teacher, i have not found any 'yoga dogma' aside from the construct that yoga must be practiced as a spiritual discipline, and not 'just' a form of exercise--to do so is to participate in 'bhoga' which is not yoga, and do something that is gymnastic, but not yoga.
that is the only 'dogmatic' thing that i've found. |
|
| |
|
| Maybe we need to define some terms:
Fact-
1) something that actually exists; reality; truth
2) something known to exist or to have happened
3) a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true
Dogma-
1) a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.
2) a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church
3) prescribed doctrine
4) a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle
Fact != dogma
Yoga is the science of god because it attempts to deal in facts, not in dogma. One of the best definitions of yoga IS the search for reality, which is pretty much the first definition of fact. If you encounter something in your yoga that conflicts with the other facts, then you've either misunderstood, or there's an error. This includes all the various sutras associated with yoga. With dogma, if you misunderstood, you're in the wrong, no questions. Unfortunately, every dogma I've ever run across contradicts itself at some point because it's not based on facts, but rather on ideas, and things that have been repeated again and again.
Interesting discussion BTW, really enjoying everbody's input. Hopefully we can continue to keep it fairly civil. |
|
| |
|
Location: Upstate NY | I have seen the direction of this discussion many times here before and for some reason someone's nose always gets bent. Hopefully this time will be different
I too have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion so far, and as always it is a learning adventure and I'm enjoying the ride
|
|
| |
|
| me 2 |
|
| |
|
| Excellent posts so far...
The essence and beauty of Yoga IMO is that it has NO dogma. Dogmata by definition are "proclaimed as true without proof" but Yoga does not ask you to acept anything without proof. It is a philosophy of exploration in which you may find answers about YOUR reality. Your proof is your experience (not some sort of scientifc proof).
Anyway, coming back to Kym's original question, I would look at it like this. Ultimately the Christian God and the Hindu God(s) are all the same (as are the Muslim, Jewish, and so on...). God created humans with free will to decide their own level of belief. This led to an infinte variety of mindsets, and if God appeared to all those mindsets in one form s/he would miss the mark for the vast majority. So s/he presents in a variety of forms to meet the needs of the people s/he created, to provide a variety of gateways through which humans can access their reality.
The aim of all religions is the same (even though some people do not understand) - peace, love and unity throughout mankind. That's all that really matters.
With respect to Krishna, just bear in mind that at this point Yoga was based in a society that was forming the tenets of modern Hinduism. Yoga has since evolved to something different, something that can be accessed by anyone with a religious belief, no matter how different that belief is to the Hindu approach. There is no need to read the BG in studying Yoga (though you'll be missing an excellent work), or you may choose to read it as a story for its metaphorical value. Your heart is pure, you love your God, so do not worry, He is divine and knows that you are not straying no matter what some ignorant (in the true sense of the word) people may think about Yoga.
Hope that helps you make sense,
Scott
Edited by Arjuna Weeping 2007-01-04 6:15 PM
|
|
| |
|
| me 3
I am reading Heat of Yoga (Hridaya Yoga) by Mark Whitwell. One of the topics he writes on (as he was taught by U.G. Krishnamurti) is that the very act of seeking God makes the assumption that God is not present- that the creation (us) cannot be separate from the Creator.
I took a workshop with him and it was sooooo enlightening. I've just started his book (as well as Neel's book )
I don't know, if it were me, that I would even discuss God and yoga in a class. Unless it was specifically brought up or if the class was specifically about spirituality. For me, though, religion and spirituality are two completely different things. One can exist without the other. I've seen many people who live their religion yet who aren't that spiritual and vice versa.... |
|
| |
was I wrong before, or now?
