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Do Vegans say NO to wool? Moderators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]	View previous thread :: View next thread
Wellness -> Diet and Nutrition	Message format

flexible

Posted 2006-12-27 2:46 PM (#72313)
Subject: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

Hello everybody,

I have recently come accross this web site http://strasbourgcurieux.free.fr/fourrure/ It is a horrifying video of fur animals being skinned alive. Inspite of the graphical nature of this video I recomend everybody watching it. I was in shock... This video and a lot of other sites that I saw after that turned my life upside down. I will never eat meat again or use or wear animal product if I know it came through the slautering of an animal.

I've read a lot about vegans and vegetarians and one of the sites says that vegans do not wear wool. I understand not wearing or using leather products or dawn filled items, but what about wool? Sheering sheep of llamas doesn't hurt them, it is stressful of course for any farm animal to be handled by humans, but there is no killing or sufferring involved in wool production.

Is there anything I should know about wool that makes it unacceptable for vegans to use? I'll appreciate any input - articles, sites, or just your thoughts.

Thank you,
Marina

Posted 2006-12-27 3:51 PM (#72316 - in reply to #72313)
Subject: RE: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

the predominent vegan perspective in regards to animals is this: "animals are not here for our use."

thus, to a vegan, any use of an animal is abhorrent. but, i must also say that there are many vegans who do not hold to this particular statement, or use this statement as their underlying premise. for some vegans, the construct of necessity (is it necessary for us to use this animal in this way?) is the underlying principle. If something is unnecessary, if there is a replacement, then why not utilize that instead?

i was a vegan for 5 years before returning to an ovo-lacto diet for health reasons. i was a vegan in the 'animal welfare/necessity' camp. i eschewed animal products whereever i could, and when i couldn't (eggs, dairy), i sought out sources that were the 'most humane.'

in some cases, wool and animal hair fiber production isn't harmful to the animals. when the rearing of the animal comes from a place of mutual respect, an understanding of mutual dependence and symbiosis, and humane treatment in regard to the animal in both husbandry and harvesting the product (whether that's dairy, eggs, wool, or even meat, leather, and fur), IMO this isn't harmful. it's 'outside of' the large-scale commercial practices often refered to as 'factory farming.'

the 'factory farming' of wool is such that animals can be harmed and often are harmed in these conditions--cuts, scrapes, bruises; inappropriate husbandry; and of course, eventually these animals do go to slaughter. which, factory farmed or not, is largely the reason why vegans eschew all animal products--even the most humane treatment during life often ends in slaughter for any commercial venture, simply because new animals come in, and the organization can only care for so many critters.

for my own part, i find factory farming abhorrent, but i have no problem with humane husbandry, harvesting, or slaughter. when i'm sourcing wool or other animal products, i try to find the most humane sources available for me. for my dairy and egg products, we look for local, organic/biodynamic, pasture raised animals. my husband, who is an omnivore, eats meat from local, organic and/or pasture raised animals that are butchered in a small, family owned slaughterhouse that has highly trained and skilled workers (other family members) and is very clean and IMO humane. when i source for fiber products that are not hemp, bamboo, or cotton (i am beginning to avoid synthetic fibers for environmental reasons), i look into the practices of those who raise the animals, i look into what sorts of dyes are used, and i look for fiber artists to do the work of making the different things that i want/need.

so, this is as i live.

flexible

Posted 2006-12-27 4:39 PM (#72318 - in reply to #72316)
Subject: RE: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

Thank you so much zoebird. You gave me more ideas for research. I appreciate your responce.
Thank you.

Posted 2006-12-28 3:42 AM (#72341 - in reply to #72313)
Subject: RE: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

Perfect reply ZB.

For me I take the same approach from yoga to diet. After all yoga isn't complete without some form of diet mindfulness. It is much better to wear a sheep with glee than to wear none in anger. Likewise, it is better for you to happily eat meat than to be a miserable vegetarian (of course a gleeful vegan may be best). I personal do not have much taste for meat. I do however have some wool. And I suppose if I look around I might find a leather shoelace or two.

Once you become militant or extremist I believe it loses the yogic component.
It's not that it doesn't matter it's that you do what you do consciously, mindfully, and with a happy heart.

flexible

Posted 2006-12-28 12:40 PM (#72375 - in reply to #72341)
Subject: RE: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

purnayoga - 2006-12-27 1:42 AM

Once you become militant or extremist I believe it loses the yogic component.
It's not that it doesn't matter it's that you do what you do consciously, mindfully, and with a happy heart.

How can your heart be happy knowing some other creature suffered to fill your stomach or to keep your butt warm? Don't you want to be happy surrounded by happy creatures, animals or people?

Are we not supposed to change the world around us into a better place? The way I see it is not just by being happy, but making a difference.

I noticed your signature phrase Mr. Purnayoga. It is what this is all about - not just stumbling over the truth, but doing something about it.

Sorry for being too emotional... I guess I am on the long way to being a true yogin.

Cyndi

Posted 2006-12-28 8:40 PM (#72387 - in reply to #72375)
Subject: RE: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

Expert Yogi

Posts: 5098
5000

Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC

Flexible,

I wear Alpaca clothing. The Alpaca's fur is taken in the heat of the summer, when they need to LOOSE the fur. It grows back just in time for the first winter frost. I can't speak for commercial wool companies, but I can for the Alpaca's down the road from me and most of the people that raise them here in America. I wish I had one but they cost $10,000 for just 1. I thought maybe Yodha would like a friend..heehee. I go visit them from time to time just to pet them. My favorite is one I named "Chocolate". He looks like a candy bar!

flexible

Posted 2006-12-28 9:06 PM (#72388 - in reply to #72387)
Subject: RE: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

Oh Cindi

I lovvvvvve alpakas

It's my dream to buy 5-10 acres of land and get a couple of alpacas for pets

But land is extremely expensive in this part of Wyoming so it will take me a couple of years to save up

Posted 2006-12-29 12:23 AM (#72396 - in reply to #72375)
Subject: RE: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

flexible,

i do think that there are issues confused.

but that is not uncommon when one is first exploring these issues and feels the strong emotional pull to decrease the unnecessary suffering of others (be that human, animal, plant, or rock--depending upon one's point of view).

first, it is part of the yoga path to be engaged. much of yoga is about right action (please note that i predominently use buddhist language because i am more familiar with that than with other philosophies based on the vedas such as hinduism, etc, as well as the fact that it has been a part of my spiritual discipline and study for many moons). but we have to understand that 'right' action is a very fine line. too much 'effort' and we become rigid and set in our ideas or patterns as if they have inherent meaning. not enough effort, and we become loose and complacent, we lack integrity.

so, we have to find the right balance of effort--not to much, not too little, just right.

part of this is also recognizing that finding that balance, that 'sweet spot' where things are completely aligned with the spirit, higher Self, or buddha nature (different people have different names), is ultimately what makes the heart happy. it isn't the effort. it's that moment when the effort becomes calm, steady, a place of infinite peace and joy.

yoga asana is such a good place to "taste" this. if we push a pose too much, we become rigid and will hurt ourselves. if we do not 'push' a pose enough, then we do not get any stretch or benefit. but when we find that 'sweet spot' in a pose, it is as if the whole moment, the whole universe expands and opens before us. it feels infinte and holy--and this brings bliss. I love to taste this sweetness in my asana practice, and i strive to taste it in every aspect of my life. I do not always succeed!

so when we come to applying various aspects of our understanding to the other areas of our lives--be that becoming vegetarian or vegan, or developing a better relationship with a trying relative, or simply finding a sense of inner equinimity--we must also seek out this 'sweet spot' where we are meeting our own needs while balancing that with the needs of others.

i feel that it is important to consider the treatment of animals, but that it isn't as absolute as How can your heart be happy knowing some other creature suffered to fill your stomach or to keep your butt warm? Don't you want to be happy surrounded by happy creatures, animals or people?

we must recognize that both for ourselves, as well as other humans, the individual needs of body, mind, spirit, and many other elements are at play, when we begin to seek out that 'sweet spot' of right action. recognizing the myriad of factors and the myriad of equally correct conclusions develops a liberalism allows me to be not too rigid.

but this liberalism is not so liberal as to lack integrity. for me, the standard is 'mindfulness.' if a person is truly considering these issues, then their logical conclusions based on how they weigh the various factors at play are as equally valuable as my own choices. but, if mindfulness is not at play, then this is where i 'take issue' with another. and how i 'take issue' varies widely based on context of my relationship to that individual.

truthfully, the whole key to this is mindfulness. when we are mindful, we are considering the needs of others. And we may, through this both recognize and be able to accept and make amends for (in whatever variety of ways) whatever suffering that we cause *mindfully* and *needfully.*

Posted 2006-12-30 10:21 PM (#72509 - in reply to #72375)
Subject: RE: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

That's exactly the point. You delve into YOUR heart center, not mine or your neighbors. And clearly some are not "disturbed" by eating meat, animal flesh, living things, whathaveyou. If for me it is not a happy heart to eat animals than I should not do it, thus heading my heart.

Does emotional equal angry?
If you want change you must be it. Not lecture it. When our respective houses are in order it is that modeling that others may follow. When we are gleeful vegans rather than millitant activists that is what shines for others to emulate. It is what they seek, not persuasion. This is a path of authenticity.

Being happy IS making a difference. It may be the largest diffference we can make living in joy, light, love. When we tell others what is appropriate for them we disrespect their own progressive path - and since we are all on a progeressive path you would think we'd have compassion there. But what we typically bathe in is self-righteousness.

So sorry this has gotten your feathers ruffled. It really isn't about Winston Churchhill or my particular diet. About the only thing suffering as a result of my diet is a chocolate chip cookie. I think extreme care must be exercised when we start to believe we know what's best for others at their particular station in life, be it diet, religion, politics, or sex. A slippery slope it is.

flexible - 2006-12-28 9:40 AM

Edited by purnayoga 2006-12-30 10:23 PM

tourist

Posted 2006-12-31 11:57 AM (#72544 - in reply to #72509)
Subject: RE: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
5000

purnayoga - 2006-12-30 7:21 PM
Being happy IS making a difference. It may be the largest diffference we can make living in joy, light, love. When we tell others what is appropriate for them we disrespect their own progressive path - and since we are all on a progeressive path you would think we'd have compassion there. But what we typically bathe in is self-righteousness.

I think we have the nail hit clearly on the head here, purna. So many, many people try to save the world and lose themselves. I know there are people who do this to the extent of losing family and damaging their own lives. Is this helpful in the long run? Probably not. Be the change you wish to see in the world, indeed. You know the camp song "This Little Light of Mine?" That is a great mantra - just let it shine

ellen

Posted 2007-01-05 4:28 AM (#72937 - in reply to #72544)
Subject: RE: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

tourist - 2006-12-31 8:57 AM

purnayoga - 2006-12-30 7:21 PMYou know the camp song "This Little Light of Mine?" That is a great mantra - just let it shine

Hi tourist! I was singing the Elton John lyric, ...I hope you don't mind, I hope you don't mind, that I put down in words (it's at this part that I never clearly heard the lyrics, so I sometimes have sung, I wonder what life is, while you're in the world, but when I was younger sometimes I would sing, I wonder what life is (pause) and then just kind of make some of the same syllable sound I rememered from the song. Sometimes I would try out different words that might fit, and if I wasn't trying too hard to think of it I would crack myself up, but basically I didn't know it, I just played with it when it came up until I thought, yeah, that's got to be it, though I always left a little room for doubt. Anyway, today I finally said, yes, those are the words I think I hear, those are it, and it made beautiful little company song, like, what keeps me company... and it seemed to make me smile as I was singing it.

I have often kept myself company with "This little light of mine

xoxellen

This thread has been fun for me to read! But you guys argue :0! So, I have to check that out, you know, for my dear one, ok, ok, my dear one keeps me safe, no shame in that, right? Well I don't really know, but in case she comes I want to make her a path where she can come find me, and I will love her. I don't know-maybe barb did that for me, I don't know if she knew it (Lori B...) But, I want to make the path for her, and it is very comforting to me, and after all, I pulled that grossly obese and yoga thread out of the air. I just read the entire thread in one gulp, I knew when it started (I looked at the date) ws kind of old, 2005 or so, but when I glanced there seemed to be a bite of time between posts, so I just read it through. When I got to the end and looked at the date, and then I registered, figured out some basics of the program, I checked on Barb, or I tried to check on her, but she had signed off. I just bawled.

So, if I remember about my dear one, I am happy so much to be here for you, and I love being here for you. I will try hard to stay, and if I don't, I will leave my email address, and if that changes I will be sure to make the easiest way I can for you to find my current address (but once I put it in a post, I really don't think I will change it, because I think as long as this place is going, I will come back and post to you, I hope it will be as easy as clicking on my underlined name at the top. I will try hard to do this. I am also nervous to do this, to say this, so If I don't, please forgive me

But for right now, I'm a click away!

For all the rest of you, if I am a pain in the ass, sorry! (Of course, I hope I am not a pain in the ass, I try not to be a pain in the @ss, see?) Ravi, last night, I was lying in bed after I had PMed tourist (Glenda, my good witch of the north : )) When I was little, ohhh, she was soo beautiful, so sparkly, so good. I never quite liked her voice though, and I didn't want it, the voice I loved was someday my prince will come, the disney, operetic version, I played it over and over and over and over and I loved every minute of it. And my mom didn't mind at all.
-oh ravi, I forgot to finish. I couldn't find Tsaklis's post in the thread, and it was at 10 pages, and tourist had told me they get hinky after 10 pages, anyway, I was a bit afraid that the thread would close and I wouldn't be able to get back into it, and even if it was a little chance, I would still lose it, so I began to think of what threads I would want to take with me to save, to go into the next one, so i got up and copied the first post you made to me. I got up this morning, looked down at the bar and smiled, yup, I had saved it : )

That's all I know so far. I hope I hit the nail close enough on the head so I don't get, well, dis couraged is probably the word, but it's all right, you have to do exactly what you want, and I will always have to deal with that, so i might like to be able to play with dis couragement, so I am not so scared of it. it would be really good if I could get less scared.

That test first, expeience after signature comes to my mind right now, d@mn, not fair! Ok, I'll send it, I can't really avoid it unless I want to go back to sleep, the worst that can happen is that I'll know better next time, and for my dear one, I remember what I said before. I won't forget until next time. I'll come back at least one more time for you. And if I've missed you here, I will be thinking of good other places to find you (here first, other threads)

tourist

Posted 2007-01-05 10:20 AM (#72952 - in reply to #72937)
Subject: RE: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
5000

Ellen - that is probably my favourite Elton John song of all time. I love Ewan McGregor singing it in Moulin Rouge. When you make up words for songs you don't understand it is called a mondagreen. I apparently am supposed to know that because I have heard the whole creation of the word explained several times on the radio lately by completely different people.

One of them even played a cut of John Foggerty (of CCR) singing "there's a bathroom on the right"

Yeah - we argue sometimes. But it all works out. We are a family - what can you do? Can't kick out the crazy cousins - they keep the party interesting

SCThornley

Posted 2007-01-05 10:47 AM (#72954 - in reply to #72375)
Subject: RE: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

flexible - 2006-12-28 12:40 PM

How can your heart be happy knowing some other creature suffered to fill your stomach or to keep your butt warm? Don't you want to be happy surrounded by happy creatures, animals or people?

Read

"Restaurant at the end of the Universe" by Douglass Adams

How can you possibly know the mind of another creature?

I'm certainly not making the argument that anything wishes to go to the slaughter house, however, don't convince yourself that your always right.

You could be wrong in your righteousness, or right in your wrongedness.

Don't always be so sure.

A good does of cynicism, even of your own self, is crucial to a discerning mindfulness that effective Yoga will help cultivate.

Do as you please, but please, don't tread on me.

ellen

Posted 2007-01-05 1:27 PM (#72959 - in reply to #72952)
Subject: RE: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

tourist - 2007-01-05 7:20 Yeah - we argue sometimes. But it all works out. We are a family - what can you do? Can't kick out the crazy cousins - they keep the party interesting

whew, what a relief! : ))

bstqltmkr

Posted 2007-01-05 2:34 PM (#72963 - in reply to #72313)
Subject: RE: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

Hey, I was thinking I could mention here that two of my favorite sweaters are made from wool sweaters that other people shrunk, and so they had no use for. My friends and family here know I'm a little bit nutty when it comes to fabric, and if they think I might be interested in something, they save it for me. So I had piles of shunken sweaters, and so far I have made a pair of slippers, two hats, and two sweaters. I just used the pieces as felt material, and crocheted them together with cotton yarn I had, but really you could use any kind. The sweaters look kind of funky and colorful, but they are incredibly warm. If we ever experience a real winter again, that will come in handy. Sorry about that last bit of sarcasm, but the weather is bumming me out.

tourist

Posted 2007-01-05 6:47 PM (#72977 - in reply to #72963)
Subject: RE: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
5000

shelly - that is the kind of project I love. Don't waste things! Make something new! I have afghan squares made of old sweaters I unravelled, beadspreads made from old curtains and all kinds of weird stuff like that

Ellen - you are SO practicing yoga now

Posted 2007-01-05 6:57 PM (#72979 - in reply to #72313)
Subject: RE: Do Vegans say NO to wool?

i have sweaters that i've shrunk by accident, and they always become 'bunny snuggles.' typically, i would just leave them on the floor nd he would make a nest of them in his favorite spot. right now, though, i'm learning to make 'rag rugs' out of old clothes.

oh, and i'm making a purse out of the one pair of jeans. it's trial and error. i keep ripping out that bottom of it (i made a panel for it out of the leg) because i cant get it to 'rouge' (sp? you know, make those wrinkly folds) right.

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