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| For those who purchase from Amazon.com, you shall find my book now listed on Amazon.com
Yoga Sutras of Patanjali - Proper Translation & Chanting by Neel Kulkarni
Thanks to my wife who provided invaluable editing of my Indian English. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hey NB,
You should talk to the owners of yoga.com and see if they will connect your book with this site. I know I purchase alot of items through Amazon that are somehow linked to and through yoga.com. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | I'm making my own book/study guide, sort of, comparing translations. I don't mind typing in by hand the two translations I'm working with. I was looking online for the English text of the pronunciation of Sanskrit for chanting purposes, and thought for sure I'd find something online in the public domain, same for the actual Sanskrit. But no luck.
Does anyone have either in a basic text file?
This isn't for publishing, just my own use so I don't have to retype it all. |
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| DJ Dre - are you looking for the transliteration? I wasn't sure I understood you're question.
When I googled "yoga sutras transliteration" I found this page
http://alanlittle.org/yoga/patanjali.html
I received a book at the beginning of my TT program - which has the devangari(sp?) and transliteration - but no translation. It is used for chanting.
I'm sure it can be bought other places - but the only place I know is through Sonia Nelson's sight.
http://www.vedicchantcenter.org/ - go to the CD's page and scroll down for the booklet.
I also just bought the CD's and am loving learning to chant the sutras.
Vic |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | Thanks Vic! Maybe it's the term transliteration I was looking for, text like this:
atha yoganusasanama?
Ah, but that has none of the characters or pronunciation marks. Still... I might be able to copy it and paste it in.
EDIT: Vic! Thanks! Some of the characters don't display on the web, but I went to the source code, and it looks like the little markings are there and I should be able to import the file into a word and view them correctly. I've cleaned out all the html tags in probably 20 minutes. Cool! |
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| so neel, would you be implying, by the title of your book, that the other translations are improper?
Neil |
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| Darling Tubeseeker. Now, that we are connected, I know your language and methods, and I understand you better. And, may be to some extent you understand me too. I shall answer your question in this way:
1. Dear Cyndi has studied Yoga for quite a while. She is from USA. Also, she is an English teacher and can be called English Expert. That means she is a good linguist. Now, she has studied Sutras from some other sources, I am sure. Also, she has read other Philosophy works as well. Also, she does not know I am writing this post now. However, she visited me for Thanksgiving and she got a copy of my Yoga Sutras of Patanjali book. If she is open and willing, she can make a comment on my translation as compared to other ones she has seen. That shall give another person's view on it.
2. The foreword for my translation is written by a famous Sanskrit Scholar who is a teacher of Sanskrit in a formal way over 50 years (not just a western scholar of Sanskrit for studying Ayurveda or such). You can see his foreword in the book to get this comparison.
3. Also, one experienced Yoga Teacher on yoga.com who also is a better English writer than myself gave a testimonial to the book which is on amazon.com (customer reviews I think). You can see that.
4. Now, my own response: What I mean by the title of my translation is: (also, it is written in the preface of the book) my translation is Proper in terms of translating the Sutras in the context of their intention and meaning and Yoga Philosophy and the Sanskrit Language as applicable to the Yoga Philosophy. And, yes, I have come across a few translations (I reserve the right to not disclose their names) which are very popular, and are popular for some reasons such as the teacher is great in Yoga Exercise, or a teacher is great in flowery language, etc., but the translation of words is different from what the intention of sutras is, is different from what the Vedic Sanskrit words mean, and sometimes grammatically wrong in terms of Sanskrit.
5. As for the transliteration, pronunciation guide, and the actual instruction for chanting in the audios of my book, I have not seen anything comparable.
BTW: If you are going to purchase my book, please purchase directly from me. 
tubeseeker - 2007-12-08 11:52 AM
so neel, would you be implying, by the title of your book, that the other translations are improper?
Neil
Edited by kulkarnn 2007-12-08 12:44 PM
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| I would imagine that many people who translated and that you dont agree with would probably have a response similar to your points in 1-5
keep yourself humble and do not exhalt yourself above others and you will not have to be humbled by a force greather then you. Exhalt yourself and you will be humbled, sometimes very painfully
seeker
Thanks for the offer but I do not wish to purchase at the time, maybe one day but as of now I am working on cleaning out my mental and physical closets |
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| tubeseeker - 2007-12-08 1:12 PM
I would imagine that many people who translated and that you dont agree with would probably have a response similar to your points in 1-5
===> I fully agree with respect (and humility!!!)
keep yourself humble and do not exhalt yourself above others and you will not have to be humbled by a force greather then you.
===> I accept the force greater than me with humility.
Exhalt yourself and you will be humbled, sometimes very painfully
===> Humility does not have to come from the pain. And, exaltation does not have to be the cause of the pain which later has to be the cause of humility. Exaltation to Pain to Humility is not a standard formula.
===> Explanation for the name of the book and keeping the Proper name of a Proper book is NOT exaltating, but a simple (or humble) Proper thing.
seeker
Thanks for the offer but I do not wish to purchase at the time, maybe one day but as of now I am working on cleaning out my mental and physical closets
===> You need to consider purchasing my book only if a) you are a student of Yoga Sutras b( you wish to read my translation and c) you wish to do so by purchasing the book. But, if you decide to purchase it, purchase it from me. Best luck with your study, called 'seeking',
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | the translation of words is different from what the intention of sutras is, is different from what the Vedic Sanskrit words mean, and sometimes grammatically wrong in terms of Sanskrit.
Neel, this caused me to recall a discussion in the Sutras class I was taking. I don't know enough to distinguish differences between a Vedic meaning of a word from perhaps the intentions of the Sutras, I'm just beginning. But I'd be curious as to your take on say, Chapter One, Verse II.
In class we discussed how some interpretations (the pure Vedic meaning?) suggest that Yoga is to stop the mind. And extension of that would be the true practice of Yoga is to go be a monk and remove yourself from everyday life entirely.
The meaning that we were taught, and what TKV Desikachar subscribes to is that Yoga is to concentrate the mind on one thing. And to follow a similar extension... you can focus the mind to overcome distractions of life, but you don't have to drop out and find a mountain top.
Do I have that right? |
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| Dear DJ Dre: Please forgive me if I did not understand your question correctly as this has happened between us in the past. Please see my response below with ===> marks.
DJ Dre - 2007-12-17 5:21 PM
the translation of words is different from what the intention of sutras is, is different from what the Vedic Sanskrit words mean, and sometimes grammatically wrong in terms of Sanskrit.
Neel, this caused me to recall a discussion in the Sutras class I was taking. I don't know enough to distinguish differences between a Vedic meaning of a word from perhaps the intentions of the Sutras, I'm just beginning. But I'd be curious as to your take on say, Chapter One, Verse II.
===> i am already almost fully aware of your attending the class as I believe you had asked me some question before that class. On my answer, you had stated that you were already attending a class and were not looking for my explanation, etc. (I may not be to the mark on this, but I had suggested you to study them using my book or learn chanting using my book, etc.) In my class, I spent at least 1.5 hours to explain this Sutra, so it is not possible to explain that here. The only way you can get it is from my Commentary Videos. You might actually find over 2 hours or even 3 hours on this one sutra or related explanation, alone.
===> Also, I am not aware of exact explanation in your particular class, so it is difficult to compare.
In class we discussed how some interpretations (the pure Vedic meaning?) suggest that Yoga is to stop the mind.
===> Yoga is to Stop The Mind, does not sound good to me.
And extension of that would be the true practice of Yoga is to go be a monk and remove yourself from everyday life entirely.
===> This is totally wrong. There is NO word 'monk' in the entire sutras and there is no word 'removal from everyday life'. Actually, it is NOT possible to remove from everyday life unless one dies!
The meaning that we were taught, and what TKV Desikachar subscribes to is that Yoga is to concentrate the mind on one thing.
===> This is NOT the meaning of Sutra II, Chapter I. It can be a practice leading to that.
And to follow a similar extension... you can focus the mind to overcome distractions of life, but you don't have to drop out and find a mountain top.
===> In Yoga Sutras, focussing mind to overcome distractions of life is NOT indicated at all. Overcoming distractions of every day life may be good and Yoga Exercise as well as Meditation can be used to that purpose as an application. But, that is NOT indicated or intention of Yoga Sutras.
===> Distractions of everyday life can be overcome by various means that are NOT specified exactly in the Yoga Sutras.
Do I have that right?
===> Please see above.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | Yes, we do seem to miss.
I'll chalk it up to my inability to articulate my thoughts.
Thanks for the effort though, Neel! |
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| No,no, no Dear DJ. I am not finding fault or blaming you in anyway. I am only responding to your question. Sometimes, I myself may not get the question correctly. To be very specific and succint my response can be as follows:
- Both the explanations in your query do not go with the Yoga Sutras at all.
- And, to know Sutra II of Chapter I, you need a lot of preparatory explanation, as far as my explanation is concerned. This can not be given on the board, but can only be given either a) in a class or b) can be had from already available videos. To save the money, one can only get a first few videos that cover this sutra and related topics. If one states that they can not afford to pay, I am prepared to give the class or videos at a lower price. However,I am not prepared to write that entire explanation on the board. May be that is my downside.
Namaste.
DJ Dre - 2007-12-18 12:34 PM
Yes, we do seem to miss.
I'll chalk it up to my inability to articulate my thoughts.
Thanks for the effort though, Neel!
Edited by kulkarnn 2007-12-18 1:56 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | DJ Dre - 2007-12-17 5:21 PM
The meaning that we were taught, and what TKV Desikachar subscribes to is that Yoga is to concentrate the mind on one thing. And to follow a similar extension... you can focus the mind to overcome distractions of life, but you don't have to drop out and find a mountain top.
Do I have that right?
It sure does help to be on a mountain top where everything is still and quiet. Although they say we should be able to focus no matter what is going on. I'm not so sure about this as I've tried both. My personal experience is that the mountain top is definitely a more conducive environment for focus and meditation. But, then again....I once had 2 totally awesome meditation experiences in a Tibetan Buddhist temple...in 2 major cities with traffic noise outside the front door. For my every day life....I'm a hermit in these hills, 
To comment about the sutra's....there are many translations of these. I've read a few and they all seem to bring something different to the surface. The essence is always the same. The translation is always the important factor. I like Neel's translation so far and when I get back from Italy, I plan on studying his material.
DJ, in NB's version...Chapter 1 vs 2, YogashchittavRuttinirodhah
translation: Yoga is stoppage of every modification of Chitta, the part of the mental faculty that deals with perception.
So, perception is the key word here. It has nothing to do with "stopping" the mind, it has everything to do with the "perception" of the mind. As NB stated though...there's a lot more to it than that,
Edited by Cyndi 2007-12-18 3:06 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | I am not finding fault or blaming you in anyway.
No worries, Neel. I didn't take it that way at all.
I was agreeing with you... we just seem to miss.
My analogy of the mountain top, just confused things.
(I wasn't suggesting it was part of the Sutras.)
No doubt, the meaning isn't easy to simplify. We discussed in class that there was a line of thought that to be a yogi, did mean removing oneself from society. That is how you gained correct perception. In fact, we discussed this wasn't Yoga. Isolation may help at times, but that isn't what the Sutras are saying. (I think Cyndi was getting my analogy.)
This was interesting to me because when I first came to Yoga, it was in many ways an intense personal focus removed from any social element. I did indeed have to be isolated (even in a room with others) to come to terms with a reality I didn't want. But while that allowed me different perspectives, it was still in a vacuum of sorts. And not correct perception. As I find more of a middle ground, correct perception requires that I allow for inputs, but not allow past experience to alter them.
Which is why I like Yoga is to still the patterning of consciousness to Desikachar's version of 1.2 Yoga is the ability to direct the mind exclusively toward an object and sustain that direction without any distractions.
What was summarized in class is that chittavrttinirodhah is focus or concentration. This isn't a direct translation, but (I think) more the approach they use throughout the Desikachar translation, because as they say in notes (not translation) of 1.4... a disturbed mind can rarely follow a direction. If it ever does, comprehension of the object will be faulty. The ability to concentrate on one thing is what leads the mind to be able to see clearly and stop modifications.
I guess I relate to that because I have to focus on just allowing things to present themselves to me... so that I don't modify them by replaying old tapes. In other words, the concentration comes before the ability to stop every modification of Chitta.
Does that make sense now? |
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| Dear DJ: Thanks for clarification. Unfortunately, I have not studied respected Desikachar's book. However, from what you have stated,
- I agree that concentration of mind is an approach to stop the modifications of Chitta. That is obvious and that is one limb of Ashtanga Yoga.
- I have some problems with the approach as it seems to be applied to social or behavioral problems. As, you are trying to relate it to your personal situations, etc.
- And, interestingly, coming back to your old statement of Mountain Top (which I might have not understood) and then current fantastic clarification, I now want to state: YES, Yoga has something to do with Going to the Mountain Top and Isolating From the Society. In fact, that is what Liberation Means. And, without isolating from society, Sutra II is Impossible. However, see below:
Isolating from society does not mean Physically Isolating as that is almost impossible, at least in average sense. And, also it does not mean isolating from caring about your loved ones. Isolating in Yoga Sutras is a practice to be performed to achieve Yoga.
I know that this discussion can go for very long. And, that is why I directed you to my Videos, if you wish to see my explanation. And, that is not must or push. You can also see some clips on youtube.
best luck. |
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| Please see this new clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YgCzK1m7Dg |
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| Per Cyndi:
DJ, in NB's version...Chapter 1 vs 2, YogashchittavRuttinirodhah
translation: Yoga is stoppage of every modification of Chitta, the part of the mental faculty that deals with perception.
So, perception is the key word here. It has nothing to do with "stopping" the mind, it has everything to do with the "perception" of the mind. As NB stated though...there's a lot more to it than that,
To me, this implies direct perception, observing without belief, identification, comment, comparison, classification, condemnation, infatuation or justification.
Swami Venkatesananda translated it: “Yoga happens when there is stilling (in the sense of continual and vigilant watchfulness) of the movement of thought - without expression or suppression - in the indivisible intelligence in which there is no movement.”
Again, alert observation (direct perception) unfiltered (without expression or suppression) and without the words in your head (the movement of thought). The meal, not the menu!
Some traditions call this "choiceless awareness."
Edited by jimg 2008-03-12 1:43 PM
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Member
Posts: 28
| I understand Vitarka as meaning is to meditate on/(with the help of) objects like the flame of a candle or listening to a tape.
Vichara as meaning is to meditate on/(with the help of) the next level of subtlety like repeating a mantra in your mind
When we sit and focus on anything it is vitarka (discursive, deliberation) Dharana (concentration), the first step in samprajnatah samadhi.
We become more quiet for longer time with still some vitarka but it becomes more subtle vichara, deeper dhyana (meditation), just observing and letting go, still samprajnatah.
At this point when there are moments of total inner silence, nirodha, complete stillness I thought it was:
1.18 The other kind of samadhi is asamprajnata samadhi, and has no object in which attention is absorbed, wherein only latent impressions remain; attainment of this state is preceded by the constant practice of allowing all of the gross and subtle fluctuations of mind to recede back into the field from which they arose.
But now I don't think so. There was still a sense of me witnessing the silence (asmita), still samprajnata while perhaps flirting with Asamprajnata in brief moments. But no ananda (at least it doesn't seem like it) so I may still be a very long way off.
I don't know about anyone else but it helps me to see where I am at in this scheme of things.
Any comments? Am I in the ballpark?
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| Dear Pete: I prefer to send you a private email. See your email.
Namaste
Shakuhachi - 2009-02-15 9:58 PM
I understand Vitarka as meaning is to meditate on/(with the help of) objects like the flame of a candle or listening to a tape.
Vichara as meaning is to meditate on/(with the help of) the next level of subtlety like repeating a mantra in your mind
When we sit and focus on anything it is vitarka (discursive, deliberation) Dharana (concentration), the first step in samprajnatah samadhi.
We become more quiet for longer time with still some vitarka but it becomes more subtle vichara, deeper dhyana (meditation), just observing and letting go, still samprajnatah.
At this point when there are moments of total inner silence, nirodha, complete stillness I thought it was:
1.18 The other kind of samadhi is asamprajnata samadhi, and has no object in which attention is absorbed, wherein only latent impressions remain; attainment of this state is preceded by the constant practice of allowing all of the gross and subtle fluctuations of mind to recede back into the field from which they arose.
But now I don't think so. There was still a sense of me witnessing the silence (asmita), still samprajnata while perhaps flirting with Asamprajnata in brief moments. But no ananda (at least it doesn't seem like it) so I may still be a very long way off.
I don't know about anyone else but it helps me to see where I am at in this scheme of things.
Any comments? Am I in the ballpark?
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Member
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| Patanjali describes Siddhis as natural outcomes of progress in concentration/contemplation/meditation. I, and I'm sure many others here, have been practicing for decades. It occurs to me that even though I do not meditate for siddhis it does not seem too unreasnable to expect to see them.
For example, Patanjali speaks of meditation upon the distinction between a word (like water), the idea it signifies and the material object. Such meditation or samyama results in understanding of all languages and all beings. After forty years I would expect at least a little more facility with languages. I have practiced meditation with about the same intensity and duration as classical guitar. I have come a very long way with guitar but do not see much in the way of siddhis.
Have any of you had or witnessed such siddhi? |
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| Shakuhachi - 2010-01-04 5:14 PM
Such meditation or samyama results in understanding of all languages and all beings. After forty years I would expect at least a little more facility with languages. I have practiced meditation with about the same intensity and duration as classical guitar. I have come a very long way with guitar but do not see much in the way of siddhis.
Isn't it possible that Patanjali, and not Shakuhachi is the one who is in error here? Do you know whether Patanjali actually spoke other languages (and which ones were they?) as a result of meditation or maybe he was just repeating something that he heard that sounded really impressive? (Remember that Patanjali was the compiler, NOT the author of the Yoga Sutras.) To understand a language without actually learning it is kind of like "knowing" calculus by meditating, without any knowledge of arithmetic. Without first learning the sounds and the form of a language, your brain can not recognize words or meaning. You can only learn to recognize the sounds by actually hearing the language over and over until it starts to make sense.
It is really easy for someone to say that you are doing it wrong or are not "pure" enough and that is why it doesn't work for you. It is far more likely that it doesn't work for you because it just plain doesn't work! I am not saying that meditation is a waste of time; it isn't. I am saying that there is an awful lot of writing about meditation that is not based in fact.
Let's be honest, no matter how or how long you meditate, you will NEVER be light as a feather or strong as an elephant. Meditation can help you be better in tune with the laws of nature. It does not make the laws of nature stop for your benefit. (In case you are wondering, gravity is a law of nature.) |
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Yoga Sutras of Patanjali
