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| and it's interesting too that it's in the same place as the hindu cast system issue.
when it comes to the construct of the caste system being a function of determining social roles that have equal value, i have no problem. when it comes to the construct of the caste system valuing some people over others--and therefore giving them priviledge--then i have a problem.
but then i have to look at the multiple layers of functionality--then vs now, as it is applied/utilized now, and what the functional theological element is and/or whether or not it is functional.
My question to whether you have trouble with it was not whether you have trouble with the means of the justice system, but rather the underlying principle of the justice system. Essentially, do you believe that if an individual harms or wrongs another individual or a group that the individual should be "brought to justice?"
from this, a lot of other questions can be formed about the ways and means, but ultimately, the core question is--if you're being attacked for your race, gender, sex, sexuality, creed, occupation, nationality or what have you, do you have a right to protection form the governing body or the right to protect yourself (in the immediate case)? because this is the underlying aspect of the various verses re: "infidels" in the quran that you brought up.
And if you do believe that you have A. a right to self defense and/or B. the right to defense from another through a justice system (regardless of form), then you are in agreement with the underlying theory of the quran in these verses, and were you to dig deeper into the theological underpinnings, you might find even more commonality into the underlying theories of justice as it relates to individuals who are different from you verses the same as you (a similar comparison would be differences between being seen as an 'adult under the law' or if one is mentally challenged or a child). |
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| SCThornley - 2006-10-15 4:33 PM
In a ball game the commentator normally talks about who's holding the ball.
yes, but in this case, fundamentalists are those on the bench, while mainstreamers are the ones in the game. |
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| zoebird - 2006-10-15 4:42 PM
SCThornley - 2006-10-15 4:33 PM
In a ball game the commentator normally talks about who's holding the ball.
yes, but in this case, fundamentalists are those on the bench, while mainstreamers are the ones in the game.
hey!
Fundamentals win the game.
You never hear, "back to mainstream."
It's "back to basics."
The foundation is on fundamentals.
"Running With Scissors"====eeeeeeyeewwww!
That does not sound like the sorta feel good story that will attract my dollars.
It makes me wonder why that mother could be so irresponsible 
Pedophilia is one of the most vile practices
With four kids of my own, the very thought of the book's premise has me upset, even moreso because it's not fiction.
K, I'm over it, little princess with a sock monkey and a rhinestone ring, face covered in dinner, and looking so pleased with herself has brought me back to reality.
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| It is very interesting to see that this thread originated with a question on Hindu Caste system and is spinning more around Muslim Caste system. That means Hindus and Muslims can easily live together! |
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| sct:
fundamentals, not fundamentalists. there are difference. what is a fundamental? a fundamentalist tends to be a literalist in regards to scripture and takes it's 'fundamental' definitions and 'fundamental values' from there. Whereas in the mainstream of most religions--the larger body of work on a given topic--tends to focus on fundamental ideas and fundamental valies that are inspiried by scriptural works, traditions, and the current social philosophies.
And so yes, fundamentals will win out ultimately; fundamentalists will stay marginalized. it's just today, they're the squeekiest wheels, not the larger portion of the population. |
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| neel:
both religions *should* be able to get along because both have a construct of tolerance toward non-hindus and non-muslims.
the 'caste systems' have different origins though. the muslim "caste system" is simply a justice system as it applies to muslims and non-muslims, giving muslims less leeway than nonmuslims. the hindu caste system is a delination of roles.
I do not know/think/believe that non-hindus fit within the caste system, and i do not know if there is a separate justice system (with more lenience) for non-hindus in the hindu system. It's not a question i've ever asked or run across--but my sense is that there is not a different legal system.
What i find interesting is that we do have a muslim/hindu conflict around pakistan/india (right?) and that a few years ago (maybe 5-7) there were 'fundamentalist hindus' who were allegedly doing any number of violent things to christians, muslims--well, any non-hindu. I remember that, for a time, they tried to take over the government (legally by vote, and then change the government completely--but i only have a vague sense of this now, as it has been many years since i've thought of it. i believe that muslims within india retaliated against these 'fundamentalist hindus'--and that there was a good deal of strive for quite a while (may still be going on for all i know).
i wish that these (all) individuals would get back to the "fundamentals" of their religions which are about compassion, peace, tolarance, and Self knowledge. |
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| zoebird - 2006-10-17 8:31 AM
sct:
fundamentals, not fundamentalists. there are difference. what is a fundamental? a fundamentalist tends to be a literalist in regards to scripture and takes it's 'fundamental' definitions and 'fundamental values' from there. Whereas in the mainstream of most religions--the larger body of work on a given topic--tends to focus on fundamental ideas and fundamental valies that are inspiried by scriptural works, traditions, and the current social philosophies.
And so yes, fundamentals will win out ultimately; fundamentalists will stay marginalized. it's just today, they're the squeekiest wheels, not the larger portion of the population.
Well put.
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| zoebird - 2006-10-17 8:37 AM
neel:
both religions *should* be able to get along because both have a construct of tolerance toward non-hindus and non-muslims.
the 'caste systems' have different origins though. the muslim "caste system" is simply a justice system as it applies to muslims and non-muslims, giving muslims less leeway than nonmuslims. the hindu caste system is a delination of roles.
I do not know/think/believe that non-hindus fit within the caste system, and i do not know if there is a separate justice system (with more lenience) for non-hindus in the hindu system. It's not a question i've ever asked or run across--but my sense is that there is not a different legal system.
What i find interesting is that we do have a muslim/hindu conflict around pakistan/india (right?) and that a few years ago (maybe 5-7) there were 'fundamentalist hindus' who were allegedly doing any number of violent things to christians, muslims--well, any non-hindu. I remember that, for a time, they tried to take over the government (legally by vote, and then change the government completely--but i only have a vague sense of this now, as it has been many years since i've thought of it. i believe that muslims within india retaliated against these 'fundamentalist hindus'--and that there was a good deal of strive for quite a while (may still be going on for all i know).
i wish that these (all) individuals would get back to the "fundamentals" of their religions which are about compassion, peace, tolarance, and Self knowledge.
Dear ZB: In the original Varna system, there is no question and mention of Hindus and Non hindus. That varna system applies to the entire humanity assuming that they abide by Vedic system and purpose of life. Now, of course, I do not know whether they considered divisions based upon countries, counties, passports, visas, etc. as today.
What happens between Pakistan and India is all Economic **** caused by getting more property also called as rights, which originated more during the partitioning of India partially supported and caused by evil British empire. Understand that Muslim kings were on the Indian thrown for hundreds of years with Brahmins in their court teaching Sanskrit, etc. and there was no problem between Muslim and Hindu society. !!!
The Hindus who act against Muslims in Pakistan trouble and similar Christian troubles are those who have waited for long with peaceful attitude and now believe that they should retaliate. However, you shall find that even many Hindus oppose that action, including government. Would a muslim government in their own country, such as Pakistan, condemn an action from a muslim mob against Hindus openly?
Anyway, for me, I love Pakistanis and Hindus, and Christians equally. Because, their religion does not play any part in my love.
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| neel:
admittedly, i have not researched much in regards to the pakistani/indian conflict--though i can see why religion would be given as a reason with economics being the reality. the same is true of the current 'war on terrorism' language. it's about economics, one way or another. what war isn't?
i'm also aware that those hindus (whom someone else labeled as 'fundamentalist hindus' in some reporting somewhere) who acted against others who were not hindu were not the majority or mainstream--just as i do not support those christians who carry hatred toward homosexuals for example, and they are certainly not mainstream.
I love most people, regardless of nationality, race, creed, etc. behavoir is usually the thing that determines whether or not i "like" them, though ultimately i have to learn to recognize my 'love' for them either way. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | We've had this discussion before about the caste system, unfortunately it was mixed in with another subject, so therefore I can't find it.
Anyway.....first of all, the Hindu culture is not a "religion" and so therefore, I think that is where some confusion lies...not telling lies, but lies, Hindu culture is a way of life based on the Veda. I also consider Buddhism the same..it is not a religion.
Satyam and I have this discussion all the time. Personally, as I have stated here many times, I feel that the Hindu caste system is a beautiful system that sustained human life on the earth and is very ideal for mankind. Unfortunately, times change, people change, culture's change, therefore the system got ruined by human beings. There was a time on Earth when things were done differently, unfortunately, it is not the same today. The system is not the same either. I totally agree with Neelbhai's comments on this subject, it is right in line with everything I know and what I've been taught about the Hindu culture. I think if people were to truly live the way they weren't meant to live, there would be more peace and harmony on this planet. They would live accordingly with their "true" nature, and because of that, there would be more contentment amoungt human beings. Again, this is an "ideal" world that is almost long forgotten, it is ancient. Only the elder's understand this and can live accordingly. This is becoming very rare, although, in Nepal, there are some countryside natives that live this way to this day - without all the BS!! However, once these people pass on, I'm afraid it will be a long lost memory because of the nature of how things are evolving. Believe it or not, there are still some people who do not act ugly about the caste system, my in-laws and my husband are these people...because, they had a spiritual upbringing and are "true" devotees of God who were taught these things properly and in the correct format.
Yes, there are several types of people, Hindu's especially that have their own ideas about their culture and some are more strict and rigid about it than others. My family happens to not be strict and rigid about this subject. Unfortunately, there is still ignorance...even amoungst Hindu's.
Correct me if I'm wrong about this NB, but the caste system did originate from the Veda. The Brahmin priests somewhere much later, along the lines changed the format to suit themselves for greedy and control purposes....but the original system was "Divine" and "Pure"...so to speak. |
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| ahhhh, the good old days 
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | SCThornley - 2006-10-17 4:08 PM
ahhhh, the good old days
I know . . . everything was SO much better back in the days of yore . . .
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| Taking Cydni's point a little further, on a recent trip to India I purchased a book on Hindu imagery. It explained how the Buddha was seen in Hinduism as the 9th incarnation of Vishnu (Krishna being the 8th). This incarnation dates from the period when Buddhism was gaining popularity, particularly among the lower castes.
The ideas of the brahmans of the time, who felt threatened by this, were as follows: Vishnu decided to go down to earth again to preach a false religion, and in this way separate the true believers who could not be dissuaded, from the heretics. According to another interpretation, Vishnu decided to go to earth to put an end to the arrogance and oppression of the brahmans, and to purify Hinduism from the rituals that had grown out of hand. The new doctrine he preached was Buddhism. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hey Jonnie,
I've heard that story before too, or a similar one. It's really interesting too how people seperate themselves all in the name of Hinduism vs. Buddhism. To me they are the same. We could further go on and say that Jesus Christ could be, might be a form of Vishnu as well, but I'm not going to speculate that since I'm not an advanced scholar of Vedanta Philosophy, I'll let NB comment on that one. Although, I have heard various things like this before amoung Vedanta Priests.
Anyway, this really doesn't have anything to do with the "caste" system, as it is totally a seperate issue. My observation is this....the lower caste people's, especially in Nepal and Tibet, as Tibetans and the Nepali Sherpas are considered a lower caste, seem to be drawn more to Buddhism. Perhaps these are the reasons, they feel more safe and comfortable. But, the *true* caste system is not like this, doesn't single anyone out in a bad way and its not ugly. Humans and their screwed up ignorant thinking have created the BS and messed up the caste system...as usual.
Just for the record...I've been around some pretty stupid people (Indian and Nepali) when it comes to this caste issue. Some are more extreme than others. Some of them think Americans are the lowest caste of them all. I liked it once when the temple Priest told this group who was complaining about the photographer who took more pictures of me and Satyam during this really important Pooja that was being held. The Priest got really angry and told them that we, my husband and I were "true" God's Devotees...they shut up immediately and our pictures were posted all over this particular newsletter. Its so funny how people's minds work.
Edited by Cyndi 2006-10-18 9:58 AM
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| so is it true or is it *true*
and does it matter what the definition of is is?
oh yeah!! I'm feeling my lowly caste right now!
 (little nauli'.JPG)
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 little nauli'.JPG (10KB - 45 downloads)
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Mr. Tornley,
I'm really confused about what your're trying to convey here....that picture display of yours IMO is UGLY and should remain private!!
To take this even further....the Western people do not have a clue about the Caste system. They think if you're poor, your the lower caste, because most westerners measure success in this manner. This is NOT how it works.
The Brahmins (higher caste) are the poorest, while the lower caste lamas and Sherpas and working class are the richest - usually and that is customary if you understand this. The reason and this is an example only, is that the higher the class, you would not be working and making $$, you would be in a temple doing pooja, studying scripture and being a God Devotee. The working class would support you. In fact, in the "true" caste system, the lower caste understand this as well and would be happy to support you if you were a Brahmin, because they KNOW they would receive blessings from God by doing so. Its a mutual arrangement and not something to be higher or lower than the other. It's called respectful.
Of course, now a days, this is totally not the case. The system is corrupted.
Edited by Cyndi 2006-10-18 10:22 AM
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| Cyndi - 2006-10-18 10:20 AM
Mr. Tornley,
I'm really confused about what your're trying to convey here....that picture display of yours IMO is UGLY and should remain private!!
To take this even further....the Western people do not have a clue about the Caste system. They think if you're poor, your the lower caste, because most westerners measure success in this manner. This is NOT how it works.
The Brahmins (higher caste) are the poorest, while the lower caste lamas and Sherpas and working class are the richest - usually and that is customary if you understand this. The reason and this is an example only, is that the higher the class, you would not be working and making $$, you would be in a temple doing pooja, studying scripture and being a God Devotee. The working class would support you. In fact, in the "true" caste system, the lower caste understand this as well and would be happy to support you if you were a Brahmin, because they KNOW they would receive blessings from God by doing so. Its a mutual arrangement and not something to be higher or lower than the other. It's called respectful.
Of course, now a days, this is totally not the case. The system is corrupted.
Gee Whiz, Cyndi
you're not much fun, lighten up .
I think I do a pretty good Nauli, it's not ugly, and the benefits of such an exercise are so great that it's practice should not only be public but should be taught openly.
So, the folks that are on Welfare---like would you say they are the highest caste here in the USA?
When it comes to all this spiritual divine stuff....I'm the lowest of the low, there ain't no doubt about it, believe me, I know, but when you're at the bottom everything is looking up!
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| Hi Cyndi,
There are some Hindu's who believe that Jesus didn't die on the cross but returned to India to die in old age. They believe he is buried in Srinagar, the capital of Jammu and Kashmir, where even today, he continues to be revered as a saintly man. He actually has a tomb in Kashmir. (though who's in it, no one really knows).
Jonathon
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| Having said that. According to the BBC news website last week, he also has a tomb in Japan.
The plot thickens.... |
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| jonnie - 2006-10-18 4:31 PM
Hi Cyndi,
There are some Hindu's who believe that Jesus didn't die on the cross but returned to India to die in old age. They believe he is buried in Srinagar, the capital of Jammu and Kashmir, where even today, he continues to be revered as a saintly man. He actually has a tomb in Kashmir. (though who's in it, no one really knows).
Jonathon
There's also the same story that comes out of Islam.
Lot's of folks didn't want for him to be the sacrificial Lamb, and so all sorts of stories abound.
But let's say he didn't die and come back to life, then our debt of sin was not paid and we will all burn in HELL!
Well see you soon  no, no really |
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| yes, I have a book called the Muslim Jesus, which is an (alleged) collection of his sayings. It's pretty wild! |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | jonnie - 2006-10-18 4:31 PM
Hi Cyndi,
There are some Hindu's who believe that Jesus didn't die on the cross but returned to India to die in old age. They believe he is buried in Srinagar, the capital of Jammu and Kashmir, where even today, he continues to be revered as a saintly man. He actually has a tomb in Kashmir. (though who's in it, no one really knows).
Hey Jonathon,
This discussion has come up and been heavily debated here on yoga.com. My husband and I were talking about this the other day. Evidently, the story about Jesus was pretty popular...even in the remote area of Nepal. Also, Satya Sai Baba makes mention about Jesus Christ in his teachings as well. What I find so interesting is that I cannot have this discussion with my Christian relatives...they just can't believe it, won't believe it and refuse to believe it. They don't want Jesus to have any part of the Hindu culture...like good grief. |
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| Hindu Caste System and BBC Reporting?
Shrimad Bhagavadgita says: brahmane gavi hastini shvapaake ... yoginaH samadarshinaH
A realized yogi hold equal attitude to a Brahmin, cow, a dog eater, and a thief.
Do you think he will consider a low caste Hindu any worse than what BBC would do? |
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| SCThornley - 2006-10-18 10:38 AM
Cyndi - 2006-10-18 10:20 AM
Mr. Tornley,
I'm really confused about what your're trying to convey here....that picture display of yours IMO is UGLY and should remain private!!
To take this even further....the Western people do not have a clue about the Caste system. They think if you're poor, your the lower caste, because most westerners measure success in this manner. This is NOT how it works.
The Brahmins (higher caste) are the poorest, while the lower caste lamas and Sherpas and working class are the richest - usually and that is customary if you understand this. The reason and this is an example only, is that the higher the class, you would not be working and making $$, you would be in a temple doing pooja, studying scripture and being a God Devotee. The working class would support you. In fact, in the "true" caste system, the lower caste understand this as well and would be happy to support you if you were a Brahmin, because they KNOW they would receive blessings from God by doing so. Its a mutual arrangement and not something to be higher or lower than the other. It's called respectful.
Of course, now a days, this is totally not the case. The system is corrupted.
Gee Whiz, Cyndi
you're not much fun, lighten up .
I think I do a pretty good Nauli, it's not ugly, and the benefits of such an exercise are so great that it's practice should not only be public but should be taught openly.
So, the folks that are on Welfare---like would you say they are the highest caste here in the USA?
When it comes to all this spiritual divine stuff....I'm the lowest of the low, there ain't no doubt about it, believe me, I know, but when you're at the bottom everything is looking up!
Brother SCT: Now, we know what you can do with your lower caste. Please show us what you do with your upper caste. |
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| kulkarnn - 2006-10-18 10:54 PM
Brother SCT: Now, we know what you can do with your lower caste. Please show us what you do with your upper caste.
I'll try, but I don't know if I got much going on up there |
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Hindu Caste System
