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 anatomy part IIIModerators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 2 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Yoga -> Iyengar Yoga | Message format |
fechter03 |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 475   Location: canada | i'm trying to understand the role of the feet and their positions relative to the rest of the legs with respect to asana. when walking or standing at rest, the feet typically flare outwards just slightly and the legs are parallel. why is it in asana that it is so necessary to have the feet absolutely parallel to each other if this is not a natural position? (well i can really only speak for myself but i've alo noticed others). in tadasana, the feet must be perfectly parallel. in warrior III, the foot of the leg parallel to the ground must point perpendicular to the ground and of course, in backbends, the feet again must be parallel. i feel so much resistance everywhere when i try to maintain the parallel position. so, where does the flaring come from? is it from external rotation of the thighs? is it possible to achieve parallel feet AND parallel legs at the same time? does any of this even make sense??  | ||
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| Nick |
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  Location: London, England | Hey Fechter, Another million dollar question  It's all about knee safety, really. It is considered safer for the knees if you can keep the feet and knee cap in the same plane. Will go into more detail later, see you Nick | ||
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| loli |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Fechter, Sorry about that-had to go teach. You say the legs are parallel-depends on how far apart the feet are, but also, even though the legs may be parallel, the bones of the legs are not. Because women have hip joints that are typically further apart than the male, the femurs typically angle inwards a tiny bit more-this is called the Q angle. In the female, this can also result in the tibia not being quite vertical, but may actually angle outwards to take the feet further apart, offering greater whole body stability. The trick in yoga is to optimize the structure of the knee though improving it's function-too often, students (and teachers, unfortunately) take the route of trying to change the structure directly. That's just a personal observation, I do not mean to be combative. It is also perfectly natural for the feet to turn out. Try walking on a flat piece of sand, or if you ever have the opportunity, take a long roll of paper which stretches from one side of the room to the other, stand in a bowl of ink, and walk along the paper. You can get a lot of information about foot placement, and differences between the two sides. The other exercise is to try doing the same thing when standing, and also what happens when you stand on one leg. I won't go any deeper into what happens, because that's a science in and of itself. I may have to ask yoga.com to let me write an article for them, because I'm doings lots of replies to knee posts, and I put info in one that I don't put in another-do a search on Nick knee, and you'll probably come up with a list.  So, if you were to look at someone's footprint and the feet face straight ahead, that is actually abnormal-and can be an indicator of various neural pathologies. The aim in yoga postures is not to encorage the feet to face straight ahead when walking, but rather to optimize the soft tissues so that the walkng pattern is one that does not impose excessive wear and tear on the joints of the body-and the knee is a good joint to look at, because if the gait is faulty, the knee often bears the brunt of tbe incorrect movement. The knee actually comprises two joints the tibio-femoral joint, and the patello-femoral joint. Good function in one encourages good function in the other, and so the knee cap faces forwards, and you try to align the femur and tibia. When you do this, you are acting on two joints, and the patella (kneecap) slides up and down the grooved joint in which it sits, and the ligaments, muscles, and tendons which cross the knee joint are made more functional. Two for the price of one! "why is it in asana that it is so necessary to have the feet absolutely parallel to each other if this is not a natural position? (well i can really only speak for myself but i've alo noticed others). in tadasana, the feet must be perfectly parallel. in warrior III, the foot of the leg parallel to the ground must point perpendicular to the ground and of course, in backbends, the feet again must be parallel. i feel so much resistance everywhere when i try to maintain the parallel position." This is a very good observation, and perhaps we can cover a lot of ground by addressing it. Of course, not all backbends have the feet parallel-virabhrasana 1, eka pada rajakopatasana, simhasana, for example. The object in these postures is to find perfect alignment in each leg, sparing the knee and stretching and strengthening the hip muscles. So what about postures where the feet are parallel? That's fine, take the opportunity to strengthen the knees, and stretch the hips-si ti really doesn't matter where the feet are, more that they are placed in a way which optimizes you posture-and the posture may work by making it difficult for you to find good posture (they nearly always do, unfortunately ). For example, padottanasana is often done badly, with the knees hyper-extended or with internal rotation. You will often see student's feet turn out, less often inwards. They do this to achieve incorrect posture, which means they can get their head through their legs, but will also serve to damage the knee or patello-femoral joints. And their spines, and potentially a few other joints as well. I think you may have to re-think your foot placement, because it is impossible to work the knees and hips effectively if foot position is faulty. Perhaps work at home, go through all the standing postures, and spend some time working out the best foot placement. Then develop the ability to place the feet without looking. Eventually you should be able to do this with your eyes closed. Take care Nick | ||
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| joscmt |
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| riftweaver |
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Knees and yoga, the whole reason I started my practice.  I find that when I do standing poses which have one leg extended where the knee is supposed to align in the same direction of the feed -- such as Triangle or Vira II -- I feel that it is physically impossilble for my feet and knee to perfectly align. If I place my leg so that the knee is forward, the foot looks slightly turned out. If I turn the foot back to face "properly" forward, then the knee rotates in. If I am going with the leg that bends, the problem looks to go away with the bend, but as soon as I straighten... there it is! My opinion is to keep the knee facing forward where it should be, even if the foot must turn out a little, because letting the knee end up rotating inward to try and align with the foot seems quite bad to me! I'm not sure if this occurs for my general anatomical build, or tight hips that prevent a true external rotation. Thoughts? --Jason | |||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | hi MaryLisa, This wrong-very wrong!! Nick | ||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | |||
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| Two very interesting items in this thread of which the second is quoted below and I will mention it in a minute. The first is a point within Nick's second reply (the more full bodied one above). And that is that an alignment in a standing pose is not necessarily to be carried over to our gait (the way we stride). I think this is a pretty important distinction about stable asana versus bipedal mobility. The second item is the action, not the movement, but the action of the pose. Riftweaver brings it right to center stage. So I'm just going to give a very very simple, over simplified, incredibly simple and not fully developed response here (get it?). Assume tadasana. Assume an iyengar style jumping of the feet apart (and still parallel) for trikon. Externally rotate the LEG (not the foot) until it has gone to 90º. Once at 90º then plant the foot. Bend the knee slightly and work the "pointing of the knee" in the same direction as the second toe by using the thigh and hip muscles. This is the action. It's perfectly normal to feel a sense of dichotomy or duality in the pose. Imagine your foot nailed to the floor and then the action of that leg as a corkscrew working energetically in a counterclockwise sense (while the back leg works in a clockwise sense). Of course the foot may want to turn out too. But this is the juice of the pose. riftweaver - 2006-10-08 7:41 AM Knees and yoga, the whole reason I started my practice. I find that when I do standing poses which have one leg extended where the knee is supposed to align in the same direction of the feed -- such as Triangle or Vira II -- I feel that it is physically impossilble for my feet and knee to perfectly align. If I place my leg so that the knee is forward, the foot looks slightly turned out. If I turn the foot back to face "properly" forward, then the knee rotates in. If I am going with the leg that bends, the problem looks to go away with the bend, but as soon as I straighten... there it is! My opinion is to keep the knee facing forward where it should be, even if the foot must turn out a little, because letting the knee end up rotating inward to try and align with the foot seems quite bad to me! I'm not sure if this occurs for my general anatomical build, or tight hips that prevent a true external rotation. Thoughts? --Jason Edited by purnayoga 2006-10-08 11:59 AM | |||
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442   | Great conversation here. Some things that came to mind as reading - and these may be only variations on what others have said - I am bleary-eyed from attending both a ballroom dance and a club gig of my son's last night and also a little turkey sedated - "parallel" feet were puzzling to me for quite some time as I have a wide, non-symetrical (as most are) forefoot and there didn't seem to be any way to find parallel. The best instruction I came across and the one I use the most frequently now is to draw an imaginary line from between the 2nd and 3rd toe and have it come directly out the center of the back of the heel. - once that is acheived all the other wild and wonderful oddities of the student's legs are exposed! For me, whose knock knees originate from the hip, it made my knee caps smack right into each other. - I like purna's thoughts about asana and functional working of the body being entirely different creatures. If the asana positions were completlely comfortable and natural to our bodies we wouldn't need to practice them! And we would not make many gains in finding the alignment where the energy and prana can flow clearly. | ||
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| fechter03 |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 475 Location: canada | tourist - 2006-10-08 12:40 PM - once that is acheived all the other wild and wonderful oddities of the student's legs are exposed! For me, whose knock knees originate from the hip, it made my knee caps smack right into each other. this is exactly what's happening. when i stand in tadasana and begin a squat into utkatasana, i can feel my knees coming together and eventually colliding before i even get deep down into the squat,i.e. the feet and lines of the knees aren't in the same plane. in backbends, i can feel my knees coming together as well and there is a lot of resistance when trying to raise my body off the ground, and when i "power" into the postures, i really feel a scrunching in the lower back. when i allow my feet to flare slightly (not much, maybe 5-10 degrees) there is no more lower back crunching. so, next question is: is it possible to be doing something wrong and feel no pain and also be doing something right and feel pain?? and thanks for the responses, | ||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | |||
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | fech - keep working with utkatasana with your feet hip width apart and parallel. Forget the arms for a bit and keep an eye on your legs. Look in a mirror - yes, they can be useful - to see what is going on with those trim legs of yours.  | ||
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| fechter03 |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 475 Location: canada | tourist - 2006-10-08 11:27 PM Look in a mirror - yes, they can be useful - to see what is going on with those trim legs of yours. haha, trim is an understatement, but i'll keep that suggestion in mind. | ||
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| Orbilia |
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | |||
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| Orbilia |
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| Quite :-) Which also probably explains why I find engaging the last 2-3 inches of upper, inner thigh in standing forward bends so difficult. If I remember, I think I'll slip in a 'how do we ensure parallel feet?" question in class tonight Fee | |||
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | |||
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| fechter03 |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 475 Location: canada | |||
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | Fechter - Lots of turkey left and stuffing that was cooked inside a pumpkin! Come on over and help me finish it up.  | ||
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| kristi |
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Veteran Posts: 258 | |||
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| joscmt |
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When I was a cool pret-teen in the 80s (  ), my mom noted that I walked like a duck- with my feet turned out. Ever since then, I have tried to correct my walking by pointing my feet fowards- it's taken me the better part of 20 years to get to where I am today, but it is more comfortable now than the other way. Imagine a clock and pointing forwards is 12 o'clock. When my mom said something, my feet pointed towards 10 and 2.. now, they are more like 12:03 and 11:57 so much better. I have this kid who works for me whose feet are constantly at more than 10 and 2! Almost 9 and 3! He looks like he can't even walk.. but he does.. the thought of putting his feet together is unthinkable- we were slow one night at the restaurant and were all talking about feet.... | |||
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| fechter03 |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 475 Location: canada | tourist - 2006-10-09 5:26 PM Fechter - Lots of turkey left and stuffing that was cooked inside a pumpkin! Come on over and help me finish it up. actually i'm only one province over now, ;) | ||
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| Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi MaryLisa, Hate to be negative, and no disrespect to your mum, but she shouldn't have made you turn your feet to face forwards. The decisions over your gait should have been left to a specialist-like I said on this thread earlier (I think ), the feet should turn out when we walk. It seems that parents have a habit of trying to correct their child's walking in this way-I've met a few-and it may be because of my interests, but these people have musculoskeletal problems-it's just a feeling and unproveable, but I think things may have turned out differently if their parents had not tried to change the child's gait. I can look at yoga postures and usually make corrections which improve the performance and health benefits for the student. There are things that I can do to the walking pattern-encouraging arm swing, looking straight ahead, etc, but encouraging the foot to face forwards? That's a job for someone who knows about orthotics. You do not attempt it by re-arranging the person's bones!! Having said that, hope it has not had any negative consequences. And the rest of us-loving parents, do not mend a child which ain't broke!! Nick | ||
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