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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
   
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Jackie and everybody else. I am going to let it go.
I will work on my truthfulness in my life. I feel good about being honest and I'll focus my energies on that.
Thanks all for your honest replies. I do appreciate them all.
Mish |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| Cyndi - I like your comment about skillful means. There may be reasons - we just don't know. As ZB says, sometimes there are good reasons (whether we individually agree with her or not is not the issue. ZB 's example shows one way to deal with it) for doing things that are not obvious to the outside viewer.
I should add that this is another great reason to have a non-profit system or a co-op. I would never inflate my numbers (not that I can, because a separate person does registrations) because it would harm my community and if my community fails, I have nowhere immediately to teach. It pays me to be honest.
Also, I want to reiterate how this is a forum where people can say what is on their mind without being judged (except those who ask and then moan because we answer them truthfully...  ...  ...  And you may or may not know who you are...) so we can think out loud, as it were. I very much understood this question to be in that category - a sort of "ok, this is what I saw, help me mull it over, friends." Some of us would have come to an immediate decision on how we would personally handle the situation, some would have thought a moment and then carried on in whatever way the deemed fit and some would have to talk it over before they could come to peace with it. I am so grateful to this group for being that place. Not everyone else in my world would understand the problem in the way another yoga person would. And sometimes the other yoga people we know are the source of the dilemma. So it is wonderful that you can be here as that resource for us all.
Much gratitude - it IS Thanksgiving here, after all   |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Man....this place is great! My eyes watered on that one Tourist.
Yes, it is Thanksgiving everyday!!
Mish |
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| Does anyone find it odd to care about their students yoga instruction and their budget but not seem to care about the ethics modeled for them as a yogi by writing numbers that aren't there? Sure maybe they never find out. But that is not the point. Maybe one does. Maybe they all do. It's still modeled behavior.
I think it's one thing to say "I'm still working on this. It bugs me to do it, I'm conflicted, but I do it for this reason". It's another thing, I think, to rationalize it being okay and lay the rationale on the shoulders of the students practice.
I could easily say that my Fitness Director should get off her rear and come look at every class and write the numbers down herself (of course she's teaching umteen classes a day so that's not really possible). But she trusts her staff to provide an accurate record of class attendance. It's a very simple request to make of the teacher and it's not unreasonable to expect a YOGA teacher to do this with a higher sense of responsibility (or truth) than a Tai Bo teacher (not that Tai Bo teachers aren't ethical).
I am sure Mish that your "friend" rationalizes her inflating. But frankly this writing an untrue number and saying it's for the students (or for her growth as a teacher for that matter) is a certain level of Avidya (one of the five Kleshas) as it mistakes the Impure for the Pure.
But again it's a personal choice about how you live yoga. Some teachers do not. Others pick and choose. And still others are in process.
Edited by purnayoga 2006-10-09 6:06 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | I'm definitely conflicted Gordon. I hope this is part of my transformation and self reflection process????
I hope.....
Mish
Edited by mishoga 2006-10-09 6:08 PM
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| hmm. lying is generally problematic, but it sometimes serves a purpose.
for example, lying to keep jews from going into nazi hands. while this seems like an extreme statement in regards to simply recording numbers, the underlying idea is that an individual is lying to protect another's interest from an unreliable authority who would arbitrarily harm the other in some way.
while i admit i'm not protecting my clients from certain death or abuse, i am protecting their interests financially (which is a survival issue) and educationally (the yoga that they want). i figure that a small lie such as the number 3--which doesn't give me or the gym any advantage--is appropriate. |
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| Zbrid,
I am truely shocked. Your comparision between the lying to stop genocide of jews and inflating your class numbers is poor taste. In addition is not an accurate comparsion. Saving peoples lives is MUCH different then saving your job because you can't put nunbers on the board. You can't compare to the two.
If you need to inflate your class numbers, you are not doing your job. There is no excuse, period.
I used to worked exclusively in the fitness industry and never needed to inflate numbers to keep a class. If the class was not doing well, I would give it up and get another.
In gym, there is no place easier to fill a class. You don't need to do any marketing, the business is already there. All you need to do is teach well. I you can't build it, then either your class is at the wrong time or you are the wrong instructor.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | zoebird - 2006-10-10 10:06 AM
for example, lying to keep jews from going into nazi hands. while this seems like an extreme statement in regards to simply recording numbers, the underlying idea is that an individual is lying to protect another's interest from an unreliable authority who would arbitrarily harm the other in some way.
while i admit i'm not protecting my clients from certain death or abuse, i am protecting their interests financially (which is a survival issue) and educationally (the yoga that they want). i figure that a small lie such as the number 3--which doesn't give me or the gym any advantage--is appropriate.
Time to invoke Godwin's Law! (Although I would have thought that the discussion could have made it at least a couple more pages.)
And while lying definitely doesn't give the gym any advantage (in fact, it prohibits them from possibly programming a class which might meet more members' needs), I have to disagree that the small lie in question doesn't give you any advantage- it does; it allows you to keep the class.
How is it "arbitrary harm" for the gym to cancel a class with consistently low numbers in order to add one that might draw more people? |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Yogabrian and Jackiecat, I agree with you both, probably because I also have years experience working in gyms and know the dynamics of a good class format that engages and motivates.
If you are connecting with your students, your numbers will reflect that. Not that I'm saying there isn't low attendance at certain times of the year.
I guess I just don't like lying. I'm married to a man of the law (most people lie) and those attitudes really are reflective of a person. And you know what, in a court of law, you lie, you can't be trusted. There is always a reason for lying. You must always ask yourself when thinking about not telling the truth "why am I going to lie". And with each answer that comes to mind, ask why again until you get to the complete truth in your head.
I'm not saying anyone here is any less of a person, so please "NO ONE" should take this personal! These are my personal views. It does bother me more that she is a yogini but any person would annoy me who lies.
Mish
Hey Daniela, love your avatar pic. Whatz happenin girlie?
Edited by mishoga 2006-10-10 12:10 PM
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| I was raised by parents of the law so I feel the same way about lying as you do, Mish. Knowing you and the energy you have, which is dynamic and engaging -- I would say that you have nothing to worry about in terms of retaining the students.. But like I said in my earlier post, this teacher may have an aggenda - and that is to acquire more classes/get more work. I might also add that here in downstate New York there is a trend in some gyms (but not all) to cut back on the pay per class teachers and just hire a few full-time salaried teachers. Full-time salaried = benefits... They put the full-timers in a region and they work full-time hours bouncing around from gym to gym teaching spin, yoga, etc. Then on the weekends they send their staff for more training so that they can teach other fitness classes... It can also be like what people said earlier in this thread - that she is doing it just to save the class so it's not taken away.. None of us know... But what I do know is the power of karma and agree with most who have posted - that karma will work its way.. |
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| mishoga - 2006-10-10 11:55 AM
I guess I just don't like lying. I'm married to a man of the law (most people lie) and those attitudes really are reflective of a person.
Hmm... I was just thinking of a time when truthfulness can be used against you.
When you are pulled over, most police officers start the conversation with "Do you know why I pulled you over?" I really don't believe there's a good answer to this question. Usually I want to say "Yes office, you're here to collect revenue for a corrupt and inefficent government agency determined to preventing it's citizen's from exercising any amount of freedom or personal responsibility." It just seems to start the whole thing off wrong.
Serious, what do they expect you to say? Anything that you DO say can be used later as an admission of guilt. In addition, most people are violating a number of different laws at any particular time, so any claims of innocence are flawed under the law. Finally, this question is really a bit of a gimme for the police. They're looking for you to make their jobs easier by admitting to something. It's a lazy sort of power play by the police. It's their job to determine and prove that you were doing something wrong, not the otherway around.
Another good example of when people don't expect the truth is when they say "How are you?" Believe me, I've tried over the years, and most people just don't want to hear anything but "fine".
Finally, nobody seems to be taking into account things like difficulty of the class involved. If you're teaching a very easy, low level class (like most of the ones on Brian's schedule), you're going to find it much easier to fill than one that's teaching the third series, and demands Olympic level performances.
Time slot can also be important, there are a number of really good classes at the local studio that I don't take because they conflict in one way or another with the rest of my schedule. If you're not teaching an evening class it can be very difficult to fill the class, no matter how good you are. |
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| "Finally, nobody seems to be taking into account things like difficulty of the class involved. If you're teaching a very easy, low level class (like most of the ones on Brian's schedule), you're going to find it much easier to fill than one that's teaching the third series, and demands Olympic level performances.
Time slot can also be important, there are a number of really good classes at the local studio that I don't take because they conflict in one way or another with the rest of my schedule. If you're not teaching an evening class it can be very difficult to fill the class, no matter how good you are."
Greenjello
I disagee, if you are good at what you do, it will build regardless of class level or time. I know many teachers who have the worst time and teach advanced classes and the fill their classes up.
Do you teach many "high level" classes? |
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| When I tell people I'm a yoga teacher, I don't want them rolling their eyes and dismissing it as not a real job.<<
I just joined this discussion and have only read as far as Bruce's 1st response to the OP but have to comment on above.
I emailed a new teacher and when he responded, he signed "Jack Sprat, Yogi". For some reason that struck me as a great idea - and one that IMO "legitimizes" the proffession.
back to reading
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| yogabrian - 2006-10-10 1:25 PM
I disagee, if you are good at what you do, it will build regardless of class level or time. I know many teachers who have the worst time and teach advanced classes and the fill their classes up.
Sure things will build, but your own schedule clearly shows that there is a stronger demand for classes with lower requirements. Right now you have 1 advanced class, and 25 beginner classes. From what I can tell from your descriptions, even the advanced class is not the intense. I'd also guess from your descriptions that you're having trouble filling even those classes.
Regardless, it's just common sense that as the difficulty of the class increases, the number of people who can meet the requirements will decrease. |
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| Mish,
I'm curious, what does Officer Mish (aka, your husband) say? |
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| yogabrian - 2006-10-10 11:25 AMI am truely shocked. Your comparision between the lying to stop genocide of jews and inflating your class numbers is poor taste. In addition is not an accurate comparsion. Saving peoples lives is MUCH different then saving your job because you can't put nunbers on the board. You can't compare to the two.
It's a difference in degee, though, not in kind. poor taste or no, the point is the same: lying sometimes is appropriate; it's all fact-based. And, i admitted in the original post that i was not protecting anyone from genocide.
also, as i stated previously, i'm not doing it to 'save my job.' read the facts i presented; they are important.
If you need to inflate your class numbers, you are not doing your job. There is no excuse, period.
I used to worked exclusively in the fitness industry and never needed to inflate numbers to keep a class. If the class was not doing well, I would give it up and get another.
In gym, there is no place easier to fill a class. You don't need to do any marketing, the business is already there. All you need to do is teach well. I you can't build it, then either your class is at the wrong time or you are the wrong instructor.
absolutism is disturbing.
i have held this position at this gym for the past 6 years. my classes are the largest group fitness classes in the gym for all other types of classes--including other styles of yoga taught there. i am doing my job. |
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| And while lying definitely doesn't give the gym any advantage (in fact, it prohibits them from possibly programming a class which might meet more members' needs), I have to disagree that the small lie in question doesn't give you any advantage- it does; it allows you to keep the class.
How is it "arbitrary harm" for the gym to cancel a class with consistently low numbers in order to add one that might draw more people?
well, it does allow me to keep the class--but i'm willing to move it to other time slots, or leave altogether, but again, this is what the clients want. and they will defend it to the gym owner. they've been doing this class at roughly these times for over 6 years many of them. in that time, there's usually some yearly hullaballoo about changing it, getting rid of it, moving it. Some of my students design their lives around this schedule, so a quick change doesn't easily work for them--and it would require rebuilding the class.
my time sheets typically go (three classes a week, week to week) something like this: 8 students, 10 students, 9 students, 11, 12, 8, 3,* 3,* 3,* 8, 9, 9, 11, 12, 15**, 8, 8, 9, 10, 11, 8, etc.
*inflated number because only two were present; **unusual number because we rarely get so many in class. most classes at the gym are between 4 and 6 participants. Typically, i'll have one week of classes with low numbers--and if the boss is noticing (which is rare), he'll sweep in and try to cancel the class, even though the numbers went right back up to consistantly large shortly thereafter.
it's pretty arbitrary, wouldn't you say? |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | My hub is pretty much cut and dry. Either inform managment or let it go......unless it happens again.
Mish |
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| probably because I also have years experience working in gyms and know the dynamics of a good class format that engages and motivates.
If you are connecting with your students, your numbers will reflect that. Not that I'm saying there isn't low attendance at certain times of the year.
i suppose my 'years' of experience don't count? in every gym where i work--other than the y, which is a room-size issue--my yoga classes are consistantly the largest compared to other yoga classes and my classes are either the same size as or consistantly larger than other forms of fitness classes. Apparently, i do know how to do it.
i don't like lying either, but at this one gym, a couple of times a year, i inflate the numbers to avoid arbitrary process of this one gym owner. |
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| personally, i let it go. i guess the reason is because the whole recording-numbers thing is meaningless to me.
there are a lot of factors at play and numbers on a page aren't always a good reflection of what is really going on. in fact, i think it's one of the worst measures of whether or not a class is 'good' or 'appropriate' for the gym.
sometimes, the teacher is great, but it's nto a good 'gel' for that gym. other times, the students struggle with consistancy through no real fault of the gym's or the teacher's (things like school schedules, illness of self or family member, jobs that require travel, etc). a lot of these things have nothing to do with numbers themselves.
i find that the more successful measures are based on direct observation. management should observe classes, client interaction, and ask for direct client feedback through questionaires. these will indicate what is working and *how* it is working. this demonstrates the 'gym culture' and the gym can utilize that information to market based on that emerging culture and thus increase their clientele.
one of the reasons why classes at the gym that i'm talking about here are small (and they are small comparatively) is because of the lack of quality child care. Early on, the gym had excellent child care. the child care was so popular, that many women would work out twice a day at the gym--taking fitness classes in the mornings and doing weights/etc with husbands/fathers in the evenings. Child care built the gym, and thus the fitness classes. my classes--during that time--easily maxed out at 25, still the largest at the gym at the time (most other classes had 10-15).
then child care when to heck in a handbasket. people left the gym in droves because of the poor quality of the child care. class sizes--across the board--plummeted. only women who had older children (not in need of day care) or other arrangements would continue to come to classes. Anyone who didn't need day care was unaffected by this situation personally--and stayed around.
of course, the numbers dropped considerably. when management had a meeting about increasing numbers, i pointed out that the issue i *heard* most about was not the fitness classes and their quality--they were unchanged--but rather the quality of the day care facilities. Management has yet to resolve this issue (some three years later), and still focuses it on the teachers saying that it's somehow our fault, trying to get us to utilize various marketing gimmicks, etc.
ultimately, the numbers tell us very little. They do tell us that perhaps something isn't resonating with clients or that perhaps the time slot isn't good or appropriate. but often, it's something else entirely that has nothing to do with numbers at all. And if the gym would take the time to figure *that* out, rather than focusing on numbers that the teacher records (that is, do quarterly assessments asking the clients for input via questionaires, etc, or even casual interviews while they're on treadmills)--then the whole process would be easier.
and, we wouldn't worry about these things, because itwould be based on evaluation or quality, not quantitiy. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 517
Location: New Jersey | I personally would let it go, but that is mainly because I don't normally open my mouth about things, even when I probably should. If I weren't so timid about things, I might say something to the instructor first, if I noticed that she made it a practice to constantly lie about her numbers. If it were a situation like Zoebird's, I would agree that fudging numbers once in awhile was worth it to avoid drama with a pain in the rear boss, and to not disappoint loyal students. Samantha |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| We don't schedule classes for the times we know the numbers will be very low. I don't teach Saturdays on long weekends, for example. Yes, it messes with the flow of week to week classes and yes, some people will miss out on a class they want (or think they want - we have tried scheduling over those times because of "demand" but they stay away in droves) but it gives them a chance to develop a home practice.  |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be |
i suppose my 'years' of experience don't count? in every gym where i work--other than the y, which is a room-size issue--my yoga classes are consistantly the largest compared to other yoga classes and my classes are either the same size as or consistantly larger than other forms of fitness classes. Apparently, i do know how to do it.
i don't like lying either, but at this one gym, a couple of times a year, i inflate the numbers to avoid arbitrary process of this one gym owner.
Your experience does count. I was not directing my comments to any particular person. You know I dig and respect you Zoe.
Peace
Mishy
Edited by mishoga 2006-10-11 2:05 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | zoebird - 2006-10-10 5:01 PM
my time sheets typically go (three classes a week, week to week) something like this: 8 students, 10 students, 9 students, 11, 12, 8, 3,* 3,* 3,* 8, 9, 9, 11, 12, 15**, 8, 8, 9, 10, 11, 8, etc.
*inflated number because only two were present; **unusual number because we rarely get so many in class. most classes at the gym are between 4 and 6 participants. Typically, i'll have one week of classes with low numbers--and if the boss is noticing (which is rare), he'll sweep in and try to cancel the class, even though the numbers went right back up to consistantly large shortly thereafter.
it's pretty arbitrary, wouldn't you say?
Thanks for further explaining. I do agree with you that it is arbitrary given that your average number in class, over a period of time, is 8-10.
It sounds like the manager/owner is way out of touch re the group fitness program. That sux! |
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| mish:
i do know.
samatha, jackie:
thanks. i thought i got that across in the first place, but apparently not.  |
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Opinion?????
