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| I'm with you Fifi... |
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Location: London, England | Hi Fifi,
I think I'm probably too late to second that, so I'll third or fourth it.
Take care
Nick |
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Regular
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Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Men who have forskins also have ultrasensitive glans, as the foreskin protects this delicate skin from constant rubbing on surfaces such as underwear and the forhand (during masturbation). Such delicate skin is much more susceptible to breakage during sex and therefore the virus is more easily transmissible directly intot he bloodstream.
Men who are curcumcised however, have a toughened glans due to constant rubbing of the skin on surfaces (such as underwear and masturbation), whereby during the penetrative act, the skin is less likely to become broken, making it more difficult for the HIV virus to enter the bloodstream.
Bloodborne pathogens are easily urinated out of the urethra and washed off the glans of a circumsized penis thatn an uncircumsized penis. It is a matter of mechanics. Gay men have been aware of this for years. I first heard of this about 10 years ago!
Why is it just now being reported?
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Expert Yogi
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| As always I hate to wade into this issue, but I will say that NONE of this is news. We were debating all of it in the 70's and 80's before AIDS. It has just become "news" again because of AIDS. It has always been a source of curiosity to me how the conservative Christian US back in the 30's or so decided it was ok to adopt a practice that was once considered exclusively Jewish. |
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| SCThornley - 2006-12-15 10:24 AM
kulkarnn - 2006-12-15 10:03 AM
This begs the question, what is the risk to a properly done circumcision?
Dear Joscmt: Yes, cicumbulate means walk around a deity a certain number of times. This is one of the Bodily Tapas (tapasswaadhyaayaiishwarapranidhaani kriyayogah... Patanjali Chapter 2 . 1 ). This way, deity shall bless you with your wish in addition to what is stated in Patanjali...
Now, two things:
1. All the body parts which a human has are borne as they are needed for that human. jaatyantaraparinaamah prakrutyaapuuraat... Patanjali Chapter 4. And, this happens automatically due to the Karma of that person. nimittamaprayojakam prakrutiinaam varanabhedastu tatah kshetrikavat.. Patanjali Chapter 4. Each part has a purpose related to the functions of that human called as constitution.
2. To cut down that part, causes disfunctioning of that function and causes problems with the bodily functioning as well as mental functioning.
Sorry, three things:
3. If you see the above all posts, you shall see what is that really causes Aids Symptoms. And, therefore, those are the things which should be removed. And, not the skin over the penus. I do not know what they shall remove in case of women.
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | kulkarnn - 2006-12-17 11:31 AM
I do not know what they shall remove in case of women.
Hopefully NOTHING. Don't even go there!!! |
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| kulkarnn - 2006-12-17 11:31 AM
SCThornley - 2006-12-15 10:24 AM
kulkarnn - 2006-12-15 10:03 AM
This begs the question, what is the risk to a properly done circumcision?
Dear Joscmt: Yes, cicumbulate means walk around a deity a certain number of times. This is one of the Bodily Tapas (tapasswaadhyaayaiishwarapranidhaani kriyayogah... Patanjali Chapter 2 . 1). This way, deity shall bless you with your wish in addition to what is stated in Patanjali...
Now, two things:
1. All the body parts which a human has are borne as they are needed for that human. jaatyantaraparinaamah prakrutyaapuuraat... Patanjali Chapter 4. And, this happens automatically due to the Karma of that person. nimittamaprayojakam prakrutiinaam varanabhedastu tatah kshetrikavat.. Patanjali Chapter 4. Each part has a purpose related to the functions of that human called as constitution.
2. To cut down that part, causes disfunctioning of that function and causes problems with the bodily functioning as well as mental functioning.
Sorry, three things:
3. If you see the above all posts, you shall see what is that really causes Aids Symptoms. And, therefore, those are the things which should be removed. And, not the skin over the penus. I do not know what they shall remove in case of women.
What is the lost functioning of that function and problems with the bodily functioning as well as mental functioning that you are referring to?
I am unfamiliar with what issues or functions you mention. I am circumcised, at birth, and therefore must be suffering these mental and physical disabilities.
I would like to recognize what they are and be honest with myself about my disability and inferiority to the whole man that has not suffered this egregious injustice.
Possibly I could seek out a support group to help me deal with my unrecognized problem.
Please describe in excruciating detail each and every minutiae so that I may begin my education , thank you in advance.
Edited by SCThornley 2006-12-17 12:02 PM
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Expert Yogi
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| OK - here is the moderator speaking! Let's not get into right and wrong here. This is a hugely emotionally charged subject and it can cause massive problems between posters. Everyone keep very cool and calm here please, so I don't have to delete the thread. Seriously. 
If 60 or 70 years ago the medical "experts" decided every child should have the tip of their pinky finger cut off and virtually everyone went along with this, we would now be in the midst of debate about the right and wrong of pinky finger amputation. Some would argue sucessfully that we can all live a perfectly happy and healthy live without them and since half of the medical community still thinks it is necessary and may prevent some dreaded disease, we should continue to do it. Some would argue successfully that it is unecessary surgery, serves no purpose and people with intact pinky fingers are happier. It could, as this discussion shows, go back and forth forever in an ever-increasing level of confusion and aggravation and not get anyone anywhere.
For the record, I feel that to try and introduce this procedure into an area where it is not culturally acceptable is akin to the religious missionaries who tried to convert "the savage." Not a great idea with a dubious and perhaps dangerous outcome. My 2 cents. |
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| tourist - 2006-12-17 5:45 PM
OK - here is the moderator speaking! Let's not get into right and wrong here. This is a hugely emotionally charged subject and it can cause massive problems between posters. Everyone keep very cool and calm here please, so I don't have to delete the thread. Seriously.
If 60 or 70 years ago the medical "experts" decided every child should have the tip of their pinky finger cut off and virtually everyone went along with this, we would now be in the midst of debate about the right and wrong of pinky finger amputation. Some would argue sucessfully that we can all live a perfectly happy and healthy live without them and since half of the medical community still thinks it is necessary and may prevent some dreaded disease, we should continue to do it. Some would argue successfully that it is unecessary surgery, serves no purpose and people with intact pinky fingers are happier. It could, as this discussion shows, go back and forth forever in an ever-increasing level of confusion and aggravation and not get anyone anywhere.
For the record, I feel that to try and introduce this procedure into an area where it is not culturally acceptable is akin to the religious missionaries who tried to convert "the savage." Not a great idea with a dubious and perhaps dangerous outcome. My 2 cents.
Yes, i concur, however as one of the disabled victims of an injustice, I'd like to know what I'm missing out on so that I can at least know what it is that makes me less complete and inferior.
Thank you.
I'd like to arm myself with knowledge, so that I can try to overcome my disability. |
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What is the lost functioning of that function and problems with the bodily functioning as well as mental functioning that you are referring to? I am unfamiliar with what issues or functions you mention. I am circumcised, at birth, and therefore must be suffering these mental and physical disabilities.
===> As for these details, I do not wish to give socio-medical answers. For these details go to www.google.com and do an advanced search on 'cicumcision effects'.
===> As for Yogic explanation: Let me say this way. Suppose any part of body is cut in childhood, that shall minimum cause a good amount of pain. This pain has be be borne by the child who is innocent and can only cry and not explain what is happening. In this case, possibly a medical drug shall be given to suppress the pain. All drugs with no exception are injurious to natural health process, and more so of a developing child. The part which is cut has a sense of perception in terms of function of the penis as well as vagina. And removing this part reduces that touch cause lack of that function and related effects.
I would like to recognize what they are and be honest with myself about my disability and inferiority to the whole man that has not suffered this egregious injustice.
===> Please see further.
Possibly I could seek out a support group to help me deal with my unrecognized problem.
===> Please see further.
Please describe in excruciating detail each and every minutiae so that I may begin my education , thank you in advance.
===> Your understanding that you must suffer a lot due to circumcision, either physically or mentally is wrong. Because, how much one shall suffer, and who will suffer depends on the other factors with that individual. For example, two girls who are sexually molested may not show the same suffering in the adulthood. In fact, one of them may not show any suffering as understood by others.
===> The only way to know the effect of that kind will be: Taking a particular person A, who is once not cicumcised and then circumcised and then compare. But, this becomes impossible when A is already circumcised. Because, then A shall not know what he would be like without circum..
===> The procedure of circumcision started before AIDs was known, and therefore had nothing to do with AIDs prevention. And, it does not have anything to do with aids. This is similar to people drrinking red wine before Cholesterol was invented. Wine has nothing to do with cholesterol prevention. Yes, after drinking wine its symptomatic effect is cholesterol reduction at the cost of introduction of alcohol which has its own bad effects.
Similarly introduction of circumcision to reduce/suppress/negate AIDS symptoms is not acceptable, as it is not a natural heath procedure. All procedures which are not in line with natural health process are unhealthy. Surgical removal of any body part is acceptable only when its non-removal can cause a reasonable damage to the rest of the organism. For example, a lead bullet is introduced into a body part. That part around the bullet should be quickly removed so that the lead poisoning of the rest of the organism does not take place.
===> Considering the facts that 'those who are NOT circumcised are not negatively affected in physical and mental abilities' and 'those who are cicumcised do not show any special physical and mental abilities just because they are circumcised' proves that circumcision is an unwanted and unhealthy procedure, except when the REMOVAL of that skin is must to save the rest of the organism.
===> But of course, I accept that in spite of the circumcision, rest of the organism survives, and sometimes in a most wonderful state, such as that of my brother SCT. |
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| For the record, I'll say it AGAIN, I posted the original link and the updated links for their scientific interest in respect to AIDS control and NOT as an advocacy for OR against circumcision.
The reason this topic is news at the moment is that scientists have finally got around to testing the theories of the 60s/70s to see once and for all, whether circumcision has an affect on AIDs/HIV transmission or not.
As has been pointed out the democraphics of AIDS/HIV varies country to country. One of the reasons this research and other studies are being done is to see if pre-existing cultural differences are underpinning the variation in AIDS/HIV demographics. The US, for example, has a much more wide-spread tradition of circumcision than the UK does so this study could have been done using these two populations. However, as stated in the study, it was recognised that this subject is highly inflammatory in those countries. This obviously raises issues concerning the morality of 'experimenting on third world countries', however it should be recognised that the sheer scale of devastation being inflicted in Africa by AIDS means that we may be at a point of having to take extreme, perhaps ethically unpalatable, decisions on how to control its spread.
Yes, abstinence is an obvious, non-invasive method of control but there are some strong cultural taboos against it in some African populations as well as Jos's point that when sex is your only pleasure in life, selling the idea of giving it up is going to be hard. Doubly so when you expect to die young (by comparison to 'first world' populations) anyway.
Fee
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| Orbilia - 2006-12-18 6:52 AM
For the record, I'll say it AGAIN, I posted the original link and the updated links for their scientific interest in respect to AIDS control and NOT as an advocacy for OR against circumcision.
The reason this topic is news at the moment is that scientists have finally got around to testing the theories of the 60s/70s to see once and for all, whether circumcision has an affect on AIDs/HIV transmission or not.
As has been pointed out the democraphics of AIDS/HIV varies country to country. One of the reasons this research and other studies are being done is to see if pre-existing cultural differences are underpinning the variation in AIDS/HIV demographics. The US, for example, has a much more wide-spread tradition of circumcision than the UK does so this study could have been done using these two populations. However, as stated in the study, it was recognised that this subject is highly inflammatory in those countries. This obviously raises issues concerning the morality of 'experimenting on third world countries', however it should be recognised that the sheer scale of devastation being inflicted in Africa by AIDS means that we may be at a point of having to take extreme, perhaps ethically unpalatable, decisions on how to control its spread.
Yes, abstinence is an obvious, non-invasive method of control but there are some strong cultural taboos against it in some African populations as well as Jos's point that when sex is your only pleasure in life, selling the idea of giving it up is going to be hard. Doubly so when you expect to die young (by comparison to 'first world' populations) anyway.
Fee
and so,
the foreskin has been proved to be a good carrier tissue for these pathogens that lead to HIV and subsequently AIDS.
Just as it was proved that anal tissues, when ruptured, are also very good routes of entry for these same afore mentioned pathogens.
The spread of these diseases are 'Security Risks' and WILL be managed by those that have the ability to do so, FORCEFULLY if necessary.
Maybe one of the symptoms of widespread circumcision is a proclivity towards funding very aggressive foreign policy and the build up of the corporate military complex? |
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Location: London, England | Hi Steve,
Are you talking about Israel or America?  So you are saying that it's all down to 'foreskin envy'? Oh my god, you could be onto something there.
Nick |
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| Nick - 2006-12-18 9:21 AM
Hi Steve,
Are you talking about Israel or America? So you are saying that it's all down to 'foreskin envy'? Oh my god, you could be onto something there.
Nick
Could be.
Maybe the benefits gained come at a price. But then again, it certainly appears that the groups who are uncircumcised show no lack of violence. So, maybe not.
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| *sighs* I'm not advocating foreceable circumcision either, simply stating the obvious that when any infection reaches pandemic proportions, control almost always involves some form of compulsory treatment / control methods. Previous pandemics have utilised compulsory isolation for example, either in one's own home or in hospital ward. Also compulsory and/or mass innoculation.
As a scientist, you look at all options that may be possible. You weed out those that would never be ethically acceptable such as culling infected humans (ok, extreme, non-realistic example but it makes the point). You then test the rest.
Fee |
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Location: London, England |
Hi Fiona,
I agree, but I don't think Steven is setting the proper tone by refusing to apologise for being circumcised Come on, Steven, you know it's the right thing to do!
Take care
Nick |
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| Nick - 2006-12-18 11:09 AM
Hi Fiona,
I agree, but I don't think Steven is setting the proper tone by refusing to apologise for being circumcised Come on, Steven, you know it's the right thing to do!
Take care
Nick
Even though I was very young, and I do 'feel' as if I was victimized, I guess I should have enforced my will as a newborn and been more vocal and if that didn't get my point across, I should have become physical [actually, as the story goes, I did wee-wee on the offending butcher of my foreskin].
I guess even newborns have to take responsibility for their own bodily part, in the end.
Maybe in the resurrection I'll be made whole.   |
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Location: London, England | Hi Steve,
I understand there's lockers at the pearly gates-there'll be one with your name on, and you can reclaim your foreskin, and know the ever-lasting tranquillity of death with, rather than life without. I envy your journey.
Nick
Edited by Nick 2006-12-18 11:38 AM
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| By reading couple of above posts, I think I did not understand what brother SCT wrote in the first place. Now, I need help from Tourist and Cyndi. Please!!!! |
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| kulkarnn - 2006-12-18 12:36 PM
By reading couple of above posts, I think I did not understand what brother SCT wrote in the first place. Now, I need help from Tourist and Cyndi. Please!!!!
nyah, you got it spot on.
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| SCThornley - 2006-12-18 12:50 PM
kulkarnn - 2006-12-18 12:36 PM
By reading couple of above posts, I think I did not understand what brother SCT wrote in the first place. Now, I need help from Tourist and Cyndi. Please!!!!
nyah, you got it spot on.
Thanks brother SCT. I thought Tourist and CB could not help me much in the matter of circumcision any way. But, they are so helpful that I could not xxxx. |
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| I would take a guess that HIV has been around longer than just the 1900s. Cats can get FIV and monkeys can get SIV. To quote radio talkhost Michael Savage recently on this exact topic, "maybe those old olive growers were right thousands of years ago". People knew back then how disease (STDs) spread and circumcision was one way to combat it.
Men make such a big deal out of their hair and their foreskin. Women don't look down on bald and/or circumscized men - FYI.
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Regular
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Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Has there been a suggestion that circumcision be used as an HIV preventitive device? I think that would be silly.
And abstinence, though ideal, is an unrealistic expectation. After all, we are human beings and it is in our nature to be sexual creatures. if abstience was a viable goal, there would be no AIDS.
To quote Dorothy from the Golden Girls: "Condoms, Rose! Condoms! Condoms! Condoms!" |
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| yogabear - 2006-12-18 3:45 PM
Has there been a suggestion that circumcision be used as an HIV preventitive device? I think that would be silly.
And abstinence, though ideal, is an unrealistic expectation. After all, we are human beings and it is in our nature to be sexual creatures. if abstience was a viable goal, there would be no AIDS.
To quote Dorothy from the Golden Girls: "Condoms, Rose! Condoms! Condoms! Condoms!"
Condoms for sure!
Condoms are GREAT!
You can find the one that fits and away we go!
Just as long as you use them properly, that is to wear while having intercourse, I've never had any unforseen consequences.
Of course, i do already have four children, but then again, my boss has six.
Condoms, For the Win!
Edited by SCThornley 2006-12-18 4:14 PM
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Location: London, England | Hi Steven,
Do you think we could market 'Yogadoms'-condoms with a yogic slant-maybe tumeric flavour or wiith a shiva's trident-you know the kind of thing
Nick |
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Circumcision News
