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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
    
| There is a lot to be hopeful for in Africa. My boss works in Eritrea a lot (next door to Ethiopia) and they seems to be a wonderful group of people who so far are simply working to rebuild after decades of civil war with Ethiopia. They make a priority of educating their children, will not adopt out their orphans to the west as they consider them to be their most important resource. Apparently you can find the Minister of Transport working on repairing the railway lines with a pick and shovel just as easily as finding him in his office. Hard workers! They seem to have peaceful relations with the various religions and ethnic groups - we'll see how that goes as time goes on.
I get impatient when I hear about famine in Ethiopia since I am told it is not famine, but $ being spent on war and weapons rather than food (not unusual in Africa) and that Ethiopia is not keen to end the civil war at all since they send Somali troops to the front rather than their own people in order to weaken Somalia and someday take it over as well. I may have some of this not exactly right. I find it a bit depressing to think about. But ever so interesting to hear from people who actually are there on the ground for a month or so at a time and really knowing the people. |
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| when i worked in a big lab, a lot of the fellas and gals were from Ethiopia and Eritria.
i loved to hear them talk of their homeland, even when they had terrible tales. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| I love hearing about the Italian influence in Eritrea. I had no idea the Italians were there for a long time. It still seems odd and amusing to me that when they want a treat they go out for Italian food  My boss does workshops for the preschool teachers there. They have NOTHING to work with so we have to be sure to order supplies before she goes. When she gets back she kinda expects us to do art with nothing. We tease her about it, but I can see how it would be hard to come back and see us using food for art that promptly gets thrown out when the kids she just left would be happy to have it to eat. |
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| SCThornley - 2006-07-14 1:44 PM
you are very different than me, i would never have considered the foreskin as utilitarian as fingers, nor would i have considered inferring that the circumcised are impaired as someone who has lost fingers.
I think it's probably better to compare it to a loss of eye sight. It's a loss of sensation, and ability to perserve the world. Maybe it's a big one, maybe not. There are also some suggestions that the loss of the foreskin effects the operation of the entire instrument. Personally I'll never know the differnce, but I have heard annecdotal reports from people who have. |
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| Tourist, I'm really sorry I posted the link.
In my naivity, I assumed the scientific content of the report would be of interest given the previous thread on circumcision.
Fee
tourist - 2006-07-15 11:43 PM
I acutally find this topic extremely inflammatory and was debating removing it the moment I saw the first post. It is just far too emotional for many people. |
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| This is actually an ancient debate. I was reading Heroditius The Greek author who is considered both a father of History and Anthropology made the following statement of Egyptians who circumsized.
"The Egyptions would rather be clean than Natural."
I've personally known a couple of individuals who had to have the surgery as an adult because the foreskin was too tight. While it was a minor surgery, it was anything but easy. |
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| Aha! I found the info for and against the HIV/AIDS hypothesis.
Peter Duesberg, a molecular biologist at UC Berkeley, and a member of the National Academy of Sciences argues that there is no evidence that HIV causes AIDS. His main arguments are:
1. There is no single causative agent of AIDS. He claims that the disease is based on one's lifestyle.
2. AIDS is a collection of noninfectious deficiencies predominately associated with drug use, malnutrition, parasitic infections and other specific risks.
3. HIV is just another causative agent like those that cause other opportunistic diseases.
In April of 1989, Shyh-Ching Lo claimed to have discovered a non-HIV "virus like infectious agent" in 7 of 10 AIDS patients. It was a mycoplasma (bacterium without cell walls), which appears to serve as a cofactor for HIV infection but is not necessary for the HIV infection to occur. Luc Montagnier, discovered of HIV, says the virus (HIV) is essential, but may need a cofactor to establish HIV disease/AIDS.
For the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis:
1. HIV is found in virtually all AIDS patients (90%)
2. HIV has been identified inside and on the surface of T4 cells of HIV positive and AIDS patients using electron mircoscopy.
3. HIV-DNA can be found in as many as 1 of 10 blood lymphocytes of persons with AIDS.
4. Antibodies against the virus, viral antigens and HIV-RNA have been found in HIV positive and AIDS patients.
5. The virus has been found in HIV positive and AIDS patients, but not in healthy, low-behavioral risk individuals.
6. The virus has been found in both low-risk and high-risk hemophiliacs.
What else could it be?
Idiopathic CD4 Lymphopenia (ICL) is described by the CDC as the following:
1. Having AIDS like symptoms with no HIV infection
2. Having less than 300 T4 cells per microliter
3. Having no HIV infection
4. Having no other illness or therapy associated with T4 cell depletion
I don't have the stats for how many cases of ICL there are worldwide. Does anyone out there have that info? Isn't this interesting? It just goes to show us how involved and intricate our immune systems are. Then, I think humans are really delicate when a dog can drink from a puddle and still be ok. fifi |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Fifi - I think that theory may be one that is unpopular but possibly will prove to be right in the long run. They may indeed find that it is not a direct link from HIV to AIDS but at the moment it is the best we have, I guess. I also have heard (and this may be rumour or myth but as Stephen Colbert says, it has "truthiness") that AIDS statistics in Africa are inflated as diagnostics are few or unavailable and anyone who looks like they might have died of AIDS is automatically listed that way for political reasons. At the risk of sounding very un-PC (and you regulars know I am not an uncaring person) there were starving orphans in Africa when I was a kid 40-odd (some very odd) years ago and there still are. I am beginning to think they are not my personal responsibility, although I am glad Bill and Melinda Gates are looking into it, and I am not so sure what we would do with all those extra people tomorrow if we were able to save them all today. In the darkest recesses of my mind I just see more cannon fodder for the warlords and diamond mines  |
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| I agree with you, Tourist. In fact, I find the assumption that HIV doesn't cause AIDS sheer lunacy. But, then again, the French physician who suggested to his peers (200 years ago) they wash their hands inbetween patients was considered the laughing stock in his professional community.
By the way, I love Stephen Colbert's sense of humor and choice of words. I figure whatever the mainstream media says is usually an exaggeration. Is he Canadian? Maybe Stephen Colbert can run for US president if he's American-born. (It would be nice to have a president who wasn't so mealy mouthed) |
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| tourist - 2006-07-20 6:25 PM
At the risk of sounding very un-PC (and you regulars know I am not an uncaring person) there were starving orphans in Africa when I was a kid 40-odd (some very odd) years ago and there still are.
Sam Kinesan did a really good bit on this a while back when there was famine in Ethopia. Basically it boiled down to this "There's no FOOD here, that's why you're staving. And there never has been any food here. Now instead of sending you some food, why don't we send some trucks, and you can all go where the FOOD is." I think it's a bit funnier when he does it, but the up shot is that feeding people on anything but a really temporary basis is a bad idea, becuase people tend to make more people who also need to be fed.
fifi- I find it a sad sign of the times that the Daily Show, and Fark.com seem to have much better news that Nightline and msnbc.com. I haven't seen it in a bit, but I loved this little clip they did on the internet/net nuetrality bit.
The info on HIV/AIDS is really interesting too.... all too often people draw inferences that seem to be correct, but aren't quite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YedWtX9tKE
Edited by GreenJello 2006-07-20 10:12 PM
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| Further follow up studies on the original one that started this thread :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6176209.stm
Fee |
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| If something is risky, that is the thing to be avoided. Not, introduce another thing which avoids the original risk, and creates new risks. That is the basis of all medication. |
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| Man, I must really be becoming a real yogi--I understand Beloved Brother Neel these days! It's kinda like heeding the guidance of Yoda. |
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| kulkarnn - 2006-12-14 5:57 PM
If something is risky, that is the thing to be avoided. Not, introduce another thing which avoids the original risk, and creates new risks. That is the basis of all medication.
Good luck with teaching abstinence in Africa it might work |
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| SCThornley - 2006-12-14 7:27 PM
kulkarnn - 2006-12-14 5:57 PM
If something is risky, that is the thing to be avoided. Not, introduce another thing which avoids the original risk, and creates new risks. That is the basis of all medication.
Good luck with teaching abstinence in Africa it might work
AIDS has nothing to do with Africa except selling aids related aid to Africa. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Neel,
Why hasn't AIDS got anything to do with Africa? Well, I mean, it's got something to do with practically the entire human population at the moment, but in Africa, the issue is particularly relevant.
Nick |
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| kulkarnn - 2006-12-14 10:40 PM
SCThornley - 2006-12-14 7:27 PM
kulkarnn - 2006-12-14 5:57 PM
If something is risky, that is the thing to be avoided. Not, introduce another thing which avoids the original risk, and creates new risks. That is the basis of all medication.
Good luck with teaching abstinence in Africa it might work
AIDS has nothing to do with Africa except selling aids related aid to Africa.
Doesn't India have the largest HIV and AIDS infected Population, at least those reported?
What's being done there?
I'd rather study the cultures that seem to have success in these matters and apply the functioning philosophies to the problems that present themselves.
Simply put, SOMETHING CAN be done to prevent the spread of infectious diseases not only but also including HIV and AIDS.
Putting SOMETHING into practice is the real challenge. |
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| Dear Nick: What I meant is: There is nothing special about Africa in terms of AIDS. I agree that it is all over. But, special thing about Africa is people want to sell them AIDS related medication.
Dear SCT: Yes, India also has it. But, special reports about India are for selling medication to India, same as Africa. There is no special thing needs to be done in USA as medication is rampant.
Now, AIDS is not a special disease as compared to cold and cough. What I mean is in terms of solving it. It is not that cold should be let go and AIDS only should be prevented. What should be done is to prevent both by 'NOT doing risky things' which cause it. And, NOT by doing 'other risky things' which superficially suppress it while giving 'more other risks'. |
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| kulkarnn - 2006-12-15 10:03 AM
Dear Nick: What I meant is: There is nothing special about Africa in terms of AIDS. I agree that it is all over. But, special thing about Africa is people want to sell them AIDS related medication.
Dear SCT: Yes, India also has it. But, special reports about India are for selling medication to India, same as Africa. There is no special thing needs to be done in USA as medication is rampant.
Now, AIDS is not a special disease as compared to cold and cough. What I mean is in terms of solving it. It is not that cold should be let go and AIDS only should be prevented. What should be done is to prevent both by 'NOT doing risky things' which cause it. And, NOT by doing 'other risky things' which superficially suppress it while giving 'more other risks'.
This begs the question, what is the risk to a properly done circumcision? |
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Location: London, England | Hi Neel,
Isn't it that Africa is faced with the problem of there being a vast amount of unprotected sex taking place? In America and Britain, for example, the risk population is homosexuals and injecting drug addicts. In Africa, I presume that huge numbers of patients are heterosexual, and the same in India. But I see your point, with the revenues that could be generated for drug companies. But remove the stigma of using condoms and increase their availability, and you have removed the means of transferring the disease-I think we have to do this soon, before the virus mutates-you don't want a HIV virus that can live in the mosqito, for example.
Nick |
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| Nick - 2006-12-15 10:38 AM
Hi Neel,
Isn't it that Africa is faced with the problem of there being a vast amount of unprotected sex taking place? In America and Britain, for example, the risk population is homosexuals and injecting drug addicts. In Africa, I presume that huge numbers of patients are heterosexual, and the same in India. But I see your point, with the revenues that could be generated for drug companies. But remove the stigma of using condoms and increase their availability, and you have removed the means of transferring the disease-I think we have to do this soon, before the virus mutates-you don't want a HIV virus that can live in the mosqito, for example.
Nick
This mutation is one that is being highly investigated.
Air borne infectious diseases are security risks, GLOBALLY.
Also, considering history, a well deployed infectious disease is a crippling weapon, that will bring your enemy to their knees and into the grave quite quickly. Beyond that, consider who would imagine that such a thing could be done. That is why such a stealthy weapon is the VOGUE of modern warfare.
When you drop a bomb of any magnitude, everyone wants to know who did it.
When an entire population is nearly wiped out, or affected so severely because of some infectious disease, well, politicians will fall all over themselves to show their empathetic concern and pity but what is actually done about it?
The science of infectious diseases is little understood by the general population and much mystery and superstition still surround much of the subject. However, when an educated scientist does publish their findings it doesn't make the evening news. If the general population was more motivated to educate themselves instead of getting high or having sex, then the situation would be much different.
Education is key, but that doesn't seem to be making much head way.
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| Phew! So I just read the entire thread for the first time. I've seen the circumcision (sp?) news. I think it's interesting. I'm pretty naive when it comes to these things. I've never been with anyone who wasn't circumcized...and I'm not a dude, so I don't know about the difference. It seems to me, that if you are circumcized at birth, you wouldn't know the difference in sensation and you wouldn't remember the procedure at all. I've heard it's a cleanliness issue and that some guys don't keep it clean. And to me, that's just completely gross.
As for the abstinence issue, it's a tricky one. When I was in college, I took a class on History of Modern Latin America. And this is one of the issues we talked about. In some of these areas, sex is one of the only forms of entertainment. It passes time, and it's a heck of a lot of fun. So, to ask people to give that up, when it's one of the few things they have (especially where other comforts are hard to come by- food, shelter, etc). It's a lot to ask. Sometimes the risk is worth taking. Now, the repercussions of the risk- being passed for generations, creating a more virulent strain, etc should definitely be discussed. Because AIDS isn't an individual risk... as say, smoking (now, I'm not comparing AIDS to cigarettes- simply that smoking is a risk people are willing to take, but it's not passed from one person to another)... people need to understand that. And then be allowed to make their own decisions about it. I don't think abstinence is that big of a deal... I don't know that I could do it forever, but if my life depended on it, who knows? |
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| OK. I shall circumbulate 100 times (do you know what that means?) and then respond to the queries.
Until then, Om Shantih. |
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| kulkarnn - 2006-12-15 4:24 PM
OK. I shall circumbulate 100 times (do you know what that means?) and then respond to the queries.
Until then, Om Shantih.
isn't that walking in a circle 100 times?? or is it something else?? |
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| I feel so passionate about HIV/AIDS, which doesn't make me an expert but I got quite an education living and working with the HIV+/AIDS community in San Francisco.
First, they don't call parts of Africa the "AIDS Belt" for nothing. Its true, the strain of HIV in the AIDS Belt is different from the strain in the US (and probably other Western countries).
The awful sex industry in Asia is the awful reason for the awful spread of HIV. Sorry, I get emotional. They use younger and younger children for sex since they are less likely to have the disease.
I say do whatever to slow the spread of HIV/AIDS. Certain sexual practices definitely contribute to the spread; mostly having several different sex partners frequently, whether hetero or gay. The last I checked, in the US, heteros were spreading the disease at a quicker rate than the gay community. Often times these groups overlap due to curiosity. Remember, women's physiology makes contracting viruses easier.
As I was leaving SF, the gay community was clammoring about reopening the bath houses (which were closed in the 80s when scientists figured out HIV was causing a huge part of gay community to die off at such an awful rate). I mean what is that?!? See, people who are HIV+ are living longer and healthier due to the medications. So, its as if they think HIV doesn't exist or that they are cured.
I don't know, I wonder if we'll ever figure out how to handle a retrovirus like HIV. In the meantime, I say let's do whatever it takes. |
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Circumcision News
